The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I have a question.

Why aren't all the people who bash Cameron/Mueller for passing on Brady Quinn not bashing Parcells for passing on Matt Ryan?

I was wondering that myself the other day.

Because...

1:  Chad Pennington is doing a great job.  Last time I checked he is a large part of why we're 8-5. 

Chad's line:  12 TDs to 6 picks, 3,062 passing yards and a 93.7 QB rating
Ryan's line:  14 TD's to 7 picks, 2,940 passing yards and a 92.0 QB rating

Had ANYONE that Cameron brought on last season put up something close to Chad's numbers you wouldn't hear about Quinn ever again.

2:  Miami has a rocket armed leader holding a clip board and ready to take over after next season when Chad's contract is up.

Parcells handled the QB situation correctly.  Better than Wanney, Saban or Cameron ever could have dreamed.

Pennington is also 32 years old, and we don't know anything more about Henne right now than we did about Beck at the start of last season.

I mean, it's not like I don't know the real answer to my own question...

MIA through Week 15 in 2007: 0-13
MIA through Week 15 in 2008: 8-5

But still, I'd like to hear the people who protest loudly about the non-pick of Quinn justify passing on Ryan.

Mostly because I don't complain about Cam not drafting Quinn.....

I firmly believe that all the evaluation in the World doesn't guarantee an NFL starting QB, and Matt Ryan playing for Atlanta has resulting in an NFL calibre QB, sure, but if he'd gone to the Lions, would we all be saying he's another overhyped bust?

End of the day you can't evaluate a rookies performance for one team as too indicative of how he would perform in another.

Unless he is John Beck.  ;)

Because Long is a very good pic, and will be a soild part of the line for years.  The thought with quinn was not that we DIDNT pick quinn so much as we picked ginn over him.

Even if the dolphins would have picked Ryan, he would not have played a down all of this season or next, except in Pennington got injured.

You are over simplication of the problem leaves this too open ended.

2007 Miami had the 9th pick in the draft and could have taken Quinn, someone forcasted in the top 5 who dropped to 22.  Instead Miami took a WR that was forecasted for the bottom of the 1st or early 2nd in Ginn.

2008 Miami had the first overall pick and Matt Ryan was not the appropriate pick in that slot.

Comparing the two isn't quite fair, is it?

Had Miami had a top five pick in 2007 you wouldn't hear anyone bitching about Brady Quinn.  There was no clear cut top 1-2-3 QB in that draft.  But at #9, with a pressing need and they took Ginn instead? 

Matt Ryan was probably a reach for Atlanta, but they didn't really have much choice did they?  He was a reach for Atlanta and would have screamed desperation as the over all #1.

I know enough about Henne and seen enough about Henne in the preseason to know that he's got Beck whipped by a country mile in terms of NFL starting QB capabilities. 

My problem isn't that they passed on Quinn. They had Beck and Quinn equal, so why overspend if they thought they could get the other later. I'm fine with that, even if it turns out to be wrong.

I don't understand picking Ginn, however.

It's the very definition of a reach. Even if he turns out to be good, he could probably have been gotten 10-15, maybe even 20 slots later. That's a reach. Plain and simple.

Considering we went 1-15, it's painfully obvious that there were a lot of needs. I would have been fine with any of the next 5+ players selected, except for Marshawn Lynch (we didn't need a running back).

Based on what?

Clearly not based on his performance so far, which speaks for itself.  As for expectations, Pro Football Weekly (http://nflblogs.profootballweekly.com/NFLdraft/2008/02/history_indicates_the_dolphins.html) seemed to think that Parcells was going to take Ryan at #1.  It's easy to say in hindsight that the safe pick (J.Long) was the only one, but it was far from certain beforehand.

Um, you just said that Quinn was "forecasted in the top 5," so if MIA had a top 5 pick and we didn't take him, then yes, there still would have been bitching.

As for no clear-cut top QB pick: the pre-draft debate was all about Quinn vs. Russell, and Quinn definitely had his fair share (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-162682933.html) of people predicting him over Russell.  I'd compare it to the 2005 draft, where Smith vs. Rodgers was hotly debated before the draft, Smith was picked, and Rodgers went into an unexpected freefall.  (I wonder if there are Bears or Lions fans that still complain about passing on Rodgers in 2005?)

Ryan would have been less of a reach than Alex Smith.  In fact, I'd argue that out of Ryan, Quinn, Russell, Smith, and Rodgers (five potential #1s), based on collegiate awards, Ryan and Quinn would have been the least questionable as a #1 overall pick.

...and I am still in the dark as to what your point is?

We have a QB that is better, statistically, than Ryan.  On draft day we had a gaping need on the offensive line.  Randall Cunningham via 1985 wouldn't survive behind Miami's line last year.  You build from the ground up.

Again - had Miami taken an offensive lineman last year instead of Ginn you would not have heard many people chirpin' about Quinn.  It was due to the player selected being Ginn.  As long as you are reaching for a guy like that, might as well reach on a guy like Quinn.  Look at what Miami went into camp with, QB wise, in 2007 and that should answer your question all on it's own.  Had Pennington come here and fallen flat on his face I am sure you would hear the same chirpin' about Ryan as you did Quinn.

What makes Pennington any different than Trent Green?  Both are retread, past-their-prime QB's with a history of injury problems.  The only difference is that Green dropped after 3 weeks and Pennington is still going. 

We went into last season with Trent Green starting at QB.  We needed a WR more-so than a QB.  You guys forget that they had plans (hopes) to make Trent the QB for the next 2-3 years before he got hurt, and perhaps didn't like Quinn's skills and hoped Beck would pan out as a gem based on combine workouts, and maybe still pickup another QB next year while Green holds down the fort.

WR was (and still is) a position of need.  Ginn was a reach, yes, but don't forget 21 other teams also passed on Quinn.  That's over 65% of the entire league!  Its not like he was a no-brainer in that 9 spot...

Who cares, atleast the Dolphins didn't draft Vernon Gholston. lol.

He was for the Dolphins with no qb.  We have already gone over that.  The other teams passed on him because they didn't need a qb.  Why pay first round money for something you don't need.

Trent Green was, statistically, better for MIA than Quinn has been for CLE (and, incredibly, also more durable!).

We had a gaping need at QB before both drafts.  Cameron/Mueller at least had the excuse that they were already working on a deal for Green.  Parcells would have been content to send us into the season with McCown/Beck/Henne as the QB corps, but we lucked out when Pennington became available.

And as best I can recall, our OL needs were worse before the '07 draft than they were before the '08 draft (mainly because we drafted Satele in '07).

People still complained about giving away Wes freaking Welker even though we got Samson Satele (plus another pick) in return, so I doubt that any lineman would have silenced the Quinn-lovers.

As to what my point is:

1) Quinn was not a good pick at #9  (regardless of who we got instead)
2) Quinn has done nothing to indicate that MIA was wrong to pass on him
3) Any person that insists that we should have picked Quinn should logically also insist that we should have picked Ryan

Cameron/Mueller had already been in discussions with the Chiefs to acquire a veteran QB, which they did.  They had another QB (Beck) ranked equally high on their chart, and they got him with a 2nd rounder.

I don't think it was unreasonable for Cameron/Mueller to believe that Green+Ginn+Beck was a better choice to address the needs at QB and WR than Green+Quinn+???.

people have such short term memories... when nicktator up and left (because of his lack of personnel abilities in putting together an nfl caliber team), "dolfans" everywhere including a large majority of this site wanted an "offensive" minded coach. this is how we ended up with the piss poor excuse of an nfl coach in cam camoron...

fast forward to the draft... everyone felt that the solution to all of miami's woes was to be more "offensive" minded. after all, most of our head coaches were of the defensive mind right  :-\

so with the first pick of the camoron/mueller regime, its obvious they pigeon-holed themselves into only considering offensive skill players. they felt that beck was better than quinn, so the only player left to choose from was ginn. the next 11 out of 12 players selected were all defensive players.

lesson to learn, always select best player available. the giants are a perfect example of this, people in new york were ballistic when they selected yet another defensive end (when at the time so-called "experts" said they didn't need another one).

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

It's worth noting that aside from a running back (Lynch) and Quinn, the next two offensive players taken were also receivers.

Ted Ginn Jr.
Dwayne Bowe
Robert Meachem

Bowe has had quite a bit of success with the Chiefs, recording almost a 1000 yards in his rookie season and on track for about the same this year.

Meachem has been a bust so far with only a single start in New Orleans (he does have 2 touchdowns in only 9 receptions, so that's certainly one heck of an "efficiency"). He didn't see the field at all in his rookie season.

Thank you...


As for Ryan, I wouldn't have minded one bit if Miami selected him. At draft time, the Dolphins (IMO) still had no QB. I'm good with Henne though, it's just too bad we won't see him for another 2-3 more years. Oh well, as long as Miami's still winning...

I didn't see the fascination with Quinn after watching his receivers make highlight reel catches on bad passes.  I'm glad we didn't take him.  The Falcons took Ryan partly as a PR move after the suckfest that followed Vick.  Good for him that he's doing so well. 

I don't see what all the Henne hype is about either.  People talk about the rocket arm but can he read a defense?  As far as quarterbacks go, I'd rather trade than draft. 

I don't disagree with any of that.  I still say that Quinn is going to be a good QB in this league and Ryan is showing he already is. 

Living up here and watching a lot of Ryan's college ball, I was hoping that Parcells might take him.  But I am very happy with the beast that is Jake Long, which is why passing on Ryan was a little easier to stomach (versus passing on Quinn for Ginn).

Fair or not, I still have visions of Yatil Green when I see Ginn.  He's proving me wrong every game, I think the kid has some stones.  But if we're talking about my reaction on that draft day, I was pissed.

I can't let this slide Maine.  Parcells and company got lucky not once, but twice. #1 Chad fell into their lap after the Favre ordeal and #2 Chad is performing even better than his biggests fans could have seen.

Remember who we had penciled in as our starting QB under Parcells? McCown. I can't say that was handling the situation any better than any of our previous.

But to be fair, Parcells and crew went out and got Pennington 1 day after he was released.  They did the right thing to bring him in before he even had a chance to go anywhere else.

Imagine if we had Drew Brees right now....  should we even bring that into the conversation?

I couldn't disagree more. 

Let's start at the beginning.  Parcells and company inherited a flaming bag of shit, QB wise.  McCown wasn't a bad signing, he was the best of a bad lot that was available.  It's not like Tom Brady was out there to be had.  He drafted well (it would appear) with the kid in the 2nd round.

They didn't "get lucky" obtaining Pennington.  The guy was released and had offers on the table from several teams.  It's not as if they traded an 8th round pick for him.  They had to fight off other teams to pick him up.  That's not luck.

#2 - they didn't "get lucky" with his performance and he is certainly not out performing "even the wildest dreams of his fans.  Chad's QB rating this season is 93ish.  His lifetime QB rating 89.7, basically 90.  He has stayed healthy, yes, but Pennington - healthy - is a 3,000 yard 20 TD to 5 INT guy each year.  He has never thrown more INT's than TD's.  He is what he is.  Your statement would make someone think he's a life time 70 QB rating guy that tosses for 1,500 yards, 18 INT's to 9 TD's.  Ain't true.

And Brian nailed it - had Saban gone with Brees and not Culpepper, none of us would be talking about any of this.

I've brought it up in conversation a couple of times lately, as I think that was the worst FA decision that this franchise has made in the last decade or so. Whichever team or consulting doctor advised Miami against Brees, based on his shoulder, should be beaten to death with his own stethoscope.

So it wasn't luck that luck that Chad decided to come to Miami when he had offers from other teams.  You example is backwards.  It wouldn't be luck if they traded a draft pick for him.

No, it's not luck.  It's presenting a better product, a better opportunity.  If you're buying a TV and you choose Sony over Samsung, was that luck?  Or was that based upon an educated choice?

Chad made an educated choice based on what we put in front of him.

Luck would have been the Jets so desperate to dump him that they would trade him to a division rival for a low draft pick - a situation where the player has little to no say what so ever.

My example was very clear.

I still say it's luck.  Going into this season Chad wasn't even guaranteed to start on his own team.  He certainly wasn't expected to start for us seeing as how no one knew how that Favre game was going to happen.  Parcells and co. was at the right place at the right time and lightning struck. Parcells had no freaking clue that Penny was coming nor that he would still produce like he is.   

Had it not been for blind arse luck and given McCown and company were our leaders ... we may still be looking for our first win and then the Ryan screams would be very loud.

Pennington could have chosen to sign with anyone, or even simply retire.  We got lucky that no one else decided to throw more money at him than we did (it's not like no other team could have outbid us).

But more importantly: the fact that Pennington was even on the market was luck.   It was pure, unadulterated luck that GB decided to trade Favre and that NYJ was the team to get him.  Parcells had absolutely NOTHING to do with either of those events, both of which were prerequisites in order to obtain Pennington.  That's what makes it luck.

And there's where the luck comes in.

Pennington had averaged 10 games per season over the last 5 years and has had two major arm surgeries.  For him to have remained completely healthy through 13 games is, indeed, extremely lucky.

Who knows, maybe warm weather is what Pennington needed to stay healthy!

With rare exception this is the rule and not the exception with a large majority of players.  Every team that avoids injury to a star is lucky.  Every team that winds up with someone like Brees is lucky.  The Pats are lucky to have landed Moss, or Brady in the 6th round.  Luck is all around.  It's not specific to the Miami Dolphins.  I would argue Miami has had more bad than good luck the last 10 years.

Again, your whole point is...what?  That we should have drafted Ryan?  I'm still not sure what your point to this entire thread is.  You asked a question.  When someone answers you deflect and try to tell them why their opinion is wrong?

I'll say again, for me - drafting Jake Long made passing Ryan easier to swallow.  It wasn't that Miami didn't draft Quinn that pissed me off.  It was the player that they DID draft instead.

Certainly seems to me like if we had picked Joe Thomas and passed on Quinn, no one would be complaining.  If we had picked Calvin Johnson and passed on Quinn, no one would be complaining.

The fact that we passed on Quinn and proceeded to REACH for a guy who was a late-1st on most draft boards is the problem.

Here's the thing about that...  Anyone who part-takes in fantasy football knows this:

You have two guys on the board you have targeted who are late-1st/early-2nd round guys.  You have a pick at 9 overall and then what, 35 overall?  You try to trade down out of the 9 spot and hope you still get your guy.  If there's no takers, get your reaching gloves out and take your higher-consensus guy anyway.  You know you won't get him if you wait till your next pick.

If Cam really wanted Ginn (after all he knew the kid's whole family), he probably figured that he wouldn't be able to get him at 35, and that the step down from Quinn to Beck wasn't worth risking leaving Ginn on the board until the second round.  So, you take Ginn, knowing full well that Quinn will go elsewhere and you can accept a minor downgrade to Beck in the 2nd round.

Turns out, later on, that Cam had Beck rated higher than Quinn.  This is not a point of discussion.  Its the coach's opinion.  Whether he's right or wrong is immaterial, and lies fully on his talent evaluation skills.

The difference between Beck and Ryan is that Jake Long was a viable #1 overall on most draft boards, and Ginn was a huge reach at #9.

Exactly.

We are not talking about just avoiding injury to your QB.  We are talking about getting a full season out of a QB with a history of short seasons due to injury problems.  Surely you can agree that a QB with two major arm surgeries fits into this category?

You also completely failed to address the issue of Favre.  Without GB trading a "retired" future-HOF QB to NYJ, Pennington is not even on the market.  That is a textbook example of luck.

How many times are you going to ask me what my "point" is?  It's already been asked and answered.

Drafting Quinn would have been a bad idea.   Any person that says otherwise should also believe that not drafting Ryan was a bad idea.  To date, AFAIK, not one person has said this.

Furthermore, I redirect you to the first post in this thread:


If you are not one of these people, why are you trying to answer a question that's not directed to you?  Nowhere in that sentence is Ted Ginn's name mentioned.  Ted Ginn has virtually nothing to do with the subject.

This is about passing on Quinn, not taking Ginn.

Ted Ginn's name is mentioned because he's the reason people are pissed about passing on Quinn. 

Teams pass on guys every year.  Its nothing new.  The critical component you're leaving out is that people aren't up in arms about NOT drafting Quinn, but they ARE up in arms about drafting Ginn in his place.

I don't think you'll find anyone argue that they're upset about passing on Quinn WITHOUT mentioning Ted Ginn's name in the same sentence.

Brian,

With a 1-15 season, we could have had taken literally any player in the draft (Russell is the only one that even makes for an interesting argument) and people would have bitched about not taking Quinn.  This includes Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson (players who were long gone before we picked).

As I already said, the sole reason why people bitch about Quinn and don't bitch about Ryan:

MIA through Week 15 in 2007: 0-13
MIA through Week 15 in 2008: 8-5

Do you seriously believe that if we were sitting at 0-13 today and Ryan was performing like he has been, we would be calmly discussing how great of a pick J.Long was?

pennington put in a lot of work this offseason strengthening his body and mind, and it certainly shows. whatever moves the jets front office made just before the start of this season was simply to appease a very fickle fan base given that they are moving into a very expensive new facility next year.

cutting pennington and bringing in farve had little to do with on the field football and a whole lot to do with the for profit business behind the scenes.

I don't disagree that things are rosey when you're winning.  However, people were bitching about passing on Quinn 5 minutes after Pick #10 hit the clock on draft day.  What does that have to do with wins and losses?  People were complaining about another botched draft pick during training camp and preseason. 

While I think that Pennington adds merit to the discussion, I firmly believe that this argument has nothing to do with wins and losses, and everything to do with Jake Long vs. Ted Ginn.

Couple things here.

1 - I am one of the people that really wanted Quinn.

2 - Yes, Dan - Ginn and Quinn, in regards to this conversation, are linked.  After all...Ginn is the player that MIAMI TOOK when they could have had Quinn.

3 - When did you become a scout that knows football in and out?  "Drafting Quinn would have been a bad idea."  Really?  That, sir, is your opinion.  Not fact.  That is your subjective opinion.  I say drafting GINN in the spot where they could have upgraded their QB position by taking QUINN was a bad idea.  And, again, subjective opinion.  But I am sure not presenting that as the end all "this IS the way it is" way.

I keep asking your point because, believe it or not, you haven't really stated it.  You're dancing around it, tossing out your opinion as fact and attempting to surpress others, but not stating what the point is.  Case in point TELLING people what they should think "if you thought this, you need to think that."  Why?  Because YOU said so? 

One more time...Quinn, in my opinion, would have been a better draft selection last year than Ginn was.

Ryan, this past year, was NOT a better selection than Long.

Which is exactly why my opinion stays the same.  I still say Quinn, under the right conditions, has the abilities to be a good QB in this league.  And last time I checked the NFL is FULL of horrible QB play. 

But that's just me. 

Do you seriously think if Miami were a legit 0-13 team Matt Ryan would help one hell of a bit?  That stance goes both ways.  Ryan is also playing with a RB that seems to go off for 150  and three each week and has very talented WR play (in addition to a great line).

Am I to really believe Matt Ryan under center for Miami last year would be this effective?  Please.  Dan Marino 1984 last year would have spent the first half of the year on his ass and the 2nd on the IR.

Please make up your mind.

You just said, "It wasn't that Miami didn't draft Quinn that pissed me off.  It was the player that they DID draft instead."  Either you are one of the people who were upset because we passed on Quinn, or you aren't.  If you are, then it doesn't matter who we drafted (picking anyone else would still be passing on Quinn).  Otherwise, the question is not directed to you.

"Miami should have drafted Quinn" and "Miami should have drafted someone other than Ginn" are completely independent statements.  My original question is directed towards people who believe the former (a subset of whom happen to believe the latter as well).

I believe I graduated from Scouting School on the same day as every other poster to this forum, yourself included.

Um, I never said it was fact.  And I was under the impression that it's pretty well established that most of the posts on this forum are opinion.  Do I really need to insert a giant THIS POST CONTAINS THE OPINIONS OF THE AUTHOR disclaimer before I click Post?

How many more times do I have to say it?

You already replied to this and said that you "didn't disagree with any of it".  So why are you still asking what my point is?

He has greatly helped the Falcons, who were pretty comparable to MIA in talent last year.

Am I really to believe that Brady Quinn would have won any more games than John Beck did?

Furthermore:

If the outrage is really about taking Ginn (and not about passing on Quinn), why aren't people saying we should have taken Patrick Willis?  At least he's doing something in this league.

the sentiment at the time was that people wanted offense. this is exactly the thinking by a non-football coach searching committee that led to the hiring of an "offensive" minded coach in cam camoron.

for various reasons, the cam/mueller regime locked themselves into selecting an offensive skill player. it is quite telling that after ginn, 11 of 12 drafted players were on the defensive side of things.

Not only did we reach for a guy, we reached for a guy at a position we didn't really have a need for at the time.  We had so many other pressing needs, one of which Quinn would've filled. 

Not to mention that when you're coming off a 6-10 season, you don't draft a kick returner in the first round. 

(http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/images/smilies/other_beatingA_DeadHorse.gif)

Stop being blind, Tommy.  Ted Ginn is a Wide Receiver.  Besides what you think, we had a need as a 2nd wide receiver.  Marty Booker was a free agent and not returning.  Wes Welker got poached by the Patriots.  Who was our #2 WR then behind Chambers?  Derek Hagan?  Really?  We had a need at WR, and oh by the way, he's a pretty damn good kick returner on the side.

Your argument is weak and outdated, please stop the hate.

I'm usually on the "defending Ginn" side, but that's defending the PLAYER Ginn. I don't understand the pick. Seriously.

I don't like REACHING, regardless of what position it is.

I really think dolfan13 struck gold with his observation that 11 of the next 12 taken were defensive players - the lone offensive player a running back. In other words, IF the team drafting was locked into an offensive (non-RB) player, there were no better choices than Ginn (with the knowledge available at the time).

But being locked into an offensive player, regardless of need, is STUPID.

So, the Ginn pick was STUPID.

I'll now return to my scheduled programming of defending Ginn ;)

I agree with you, but some people like to find random exaggerated arguments to PROVE that its stupid.  An objective fan can see the justification in the mind of the coach, no matter how much you might disagree.

BUT, what's done is done, and its really even stupider to keep arguing about it.  Ted Ginn is a Miami Dolphin, Brady Quinn is not.  IF you love Brady Quinn so much, there's a Browns message board out there somewhere.  Otherwise, stay and cheer for the team (including Ted Ginn).

IF those making the decision really had Beck rated higher than Quinn THEN drafting Ginn makes perfect sense since he is supposedly a game breaker.  WR has been considered a huge weakness on this team since .... the days of OJ McDuffie?  Especially a burner who can stretch the defense. 

What doesn't make sense is not trading down a bit before taking him.

you can only trade down if someone else is willing to move up (and has enough ammunition according to the chart gospel). the next 11 out of 12 players selected were defensive, so no one was going to move up to get ginn.

actually i remember an interview of mueller during a preseason game that year, and he was asked about the ted ginn pick. mueller's response was that the team needed speed on offense, and he was very adamant about that.

again, we had non-football people managing the organization, deciding that we needed to be more "offensive", hiring an "offensive" minded (albeit crappy) head coach and it was a sure bet that the first pick that year was to be an offensive skill position. for good or bad, they locked themselves into that pick... the real issue here is the not ted ginn pick (i happen to think he is going to be a good player for the fins), where he was selected, etc... rather how crappy camoron/mueller were in putting together an nfl team and what lack of vision they had. thank god those clowns are gone.

Agreed, EXCEPT, any team that moved up would not have to take Ginn.  A team could have traded up to take Patrick Willis, for example, and stuck the 49ers with Ginn.  Then we could have enjoyed Sunstroke ranting on this issue.

I think RTW hit it on the head.

The problem is not that they passed on Quinn, not that the picked Ginn instead, but that the coaches evaluated the QB class and determined John Beck was a better QB than Brady Quinn.

Let's make this assumption, and agree with Coach Cam for a minute.  Does it not make perfect sense to do exactly what the Dolphins did if, in fact, John Beck is better than Brady Quinn?

Quite simply, the staff didn't feel Quinn was worth a 9 overall.  Disagree all you want, but that is the real reason why we passed on Quinn.

it was no secret that the dolphins were going to pick an offensive player. most thought it would be quinn, but thats beside the point...

everyone drafting from 10 on, almost exclusively took defensive players. there was no need to try to trade into #9 (unless you wanted quinn or ginn), when the same defensive players would be sitting at #10. they could not trade out of that position, because everyone pretty much knew they were going offense and no one wanted to pay a #9 price to move up to get those offensive players.

LOL, you guys are really good at drafting aren't you.  Of course if you were sitting at 21 and wanted an offensive player you wouldn't move up to 9.  If you happened to be sitting at 21 and wanted a defensive player, you might think about trading up to get to number 9 so you get a top 10 defensive player. 

Wow, I'm surprised at the general tone of this thread.  Seems that the Quinn fans were just a (very) vocal minority.

I agree with the basic premise put forth by RTW; if you have Beck rated equal-to-or-better-than Quinn, and you have a great chance to get one of them at 40, it makes no sense to pick one of them at 9.  So if you aren't picking a QB at 9, what were your other options?

Clearly you have missed the point.

If you know that #9 is not any threat to take a player you want (you want D, they are picking O), why would you want to pay the cost of trading up to 9 (according to the draft value chart) when you can just wait and then pay #10 the lesser cost to trade up to their spot?

Because 10 isn't going to give up their pick if they are going defense and you are going defense.

This is all hindsight.  If you knew the draft order in advance, which seems to be the premise of the majority of this thread,...

#10 (Texans) picked defense.  If you wanted Okoye or Willis you had to go to #9.

i think for now on i should just post this every time a ginn-Quinn post comes up. seems to sum up my feelings perfectly.

(http://www.rudezone.net/images/notThisShitAgain.gif)

I may be in the minority, but i like Ginn. not the greatest WR around, but has been productive in some way.

teams are always trying to figure out what direction the team that is picking is going. that is the whole part of the strategy behind the draft. most everyone in the nfl football world (except those close to cam/mueller) bet the farm that once quinn slipped to #9, he would be the pick.

the dolphins shopped quinn at that pick (knowing they had beck rated higher and wanted ginn), and NOBODY wanted to pay the price to move to #9 to get him. sure they could've shopped okoye or willis, but doubtful anybody believed them.
the point is that you did not have to move to #9 to get okoye or willis, they would still be available at #10.

[ ] you understand the draft well

Four pages of Quinn shit two years later. It gives me a headache.

But they wouldn't be available at 12, since 10 and 11 would pick them.  How can you not understand that.

In 2004, DET (6) traded with CLE (7).  CLE took Kellen Winslow at 6, and DET took Roy Williams at 7 (plus CLE's pick at 37).  WSH took defense at 5 (Sean Taylor), yet I guarantee you that it would have cost CLE more than a 37 pick to switch with WSH.

Hell, in the same draft, MIN extorted a trade from us (when we were literally next in line) just with the mere threat of picking Carey at 18, and used the resulting extra pick (119) to draft Mewelde Moore.  I'm sure we all remember that heist.

Draft defense instead.

Simple as that.

You can ALWAYS use good players and, frankly, it's just STUPID to lock yourself into any one position (even O or D) in complete disregard of the draft and the players available. That's what I feel they did (Mueller, right? Cam wasn't in charge of drafting, IIRC).

I've got nothing against Ginn. I don't know if he'll be "worth" a first round pick, but if you look at previous first round receivers picked in the first round, there have been A LOT of busts and mediocre players. Right now, we've only gotten what I would call "mediocre" value out of Ginn. He could still develop and with a different QB he'd probably be more useful, but in terms of the actual value we've gotten out of that pick, I think "mediocre" is about right.

Do you understand the basic concept of trading down?

You give up the ability to pick a talented player.  In exchange, you get the opportunity to select a greater quantity of less-talented players.

Using your logic, no team would ever trade down at all.

In hindsight, that's a good call.  But at the time, we hired an offensive coach to fix our offense.  Passing up Quinn to go defense with our first pick would have been received far worse than even the Ginn pick was.

What? the dolphins were going offense, and everybody behind them was picking defense. There was no threat their player would be gone behind them, so they could trade down. 

The team currently in the 12 spot if drafting defense, should think about moving to number 9, since 10 and 11 spots would also be drafting defense and they could have the first pick of the 3 defensive players.

When you're on the clock at 9, you don't know that "everyone behind you is picking defense."  Hindsight is 20/20.