The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Here's a good question about our QB situation next year.... how do you handle it?  My friend, Mark the Bills fan, told me after the Buffalo game, "Pennington will get you to the playoffs, but he won't get you far."  We all know what Pennington is capable of, which isn't good enough to take us to a level of "being in the thick of it."  Henne is raw, but he proved during the preseason and on that one drive against Arizona that he belongs in the NFL.  He's got a deep ball that Pennington can only dream about.  However, he can only gain so much by watching and learning. 

What do you do come training camp?  Discuss.

One more year for Henne on the sidelines.  Pennington will most likely get injured anyway.

If Pennington completes another year (and doesn't take us to the SB), cut the ties and put Henne in as starter.

Hard to answer that question at this point, particularly being I have not seen Henne since pre-season.

But I would start Henne and have him play all or most of the first three pre-season games. 

After the third pre-season game I would decide on my starting Chad and backup Chad, based on Henne's development to that point.

For the fourth pre-season game I would start the starter. 

Henne is not ready to start yet.   This is all reactionary.  Penny got us to the playoffs.  Unfortunately, he had a bad game at the worst possible time.  Not a reason to dump him.

I have to disagree that he is not ready...he was a four year starter at MI plus now one year holding a clipboard...Whether he has the adequate tools around him to be more successful then Penny is the question...Penny can do more with less talented receivers...It's hard to tell until after the offseason.

i say pennington starts another year and then henne starts the year after ..

look how long it took rivers to start ..

doesn't seem to have done him any harm

I know the popular thing is to lob all of the ills of yesterday on Pennington.  It wasn't Pennington that was being plowed through like powder snow...it was the offensive line.  It was Pennington running bad routes...or FALLING DOWN in the route.  That was Ginn.  He wasn't the one giving Flacco enough time in the pocket to write a book, that was our non-existant pash rush.  He wasn't the one letting a guy that used to be on the practice squad average 5 yards a carry on us...that would be the d-line, linebackers and safety.  He sure as hell wasn't the guy averaging, what?  1.2 yards per carry?  That would be Ricky and Ronnie - running behind the previously mentioned O line that couldn't have blocked a fat kid from a doughnut yesterday.

Yes, he tossed four picks.  Yes, that counts for something.

YES - it took a TEAM effort to blow the game yesterday.  Henne would not have mattered yesterday...period. 

Therefore you need to look at who, overall, gives you the best chance to win.  I think that's Pennington.

i fixed your mistake.  ricky 4 carries 17 yards  ronnie 12 carries 19 yards

i think they should share the load some what. he has to start some time.

I agree...Come up with some deep throw plays for Henne, and put him in for not only those, but some short passes as well so our opponent won't know its going deep just because Henne steps on the field.

The plan may have been to start him this season  once the Dolphins was out of the race and the condition precedent just never occurred. 

Ill let Sparano make that call, who is obviously far more knowledgable and capable thatn anyone that might post in this thread.

That pass from Pennington was WAY off. Ginn falling down (didn't look like there was contact, but it was close) had nothing to do with anything. There were TWO defenders covering Ginn on that play and BOTH were closer to the ball than Ginn ever could have been. The closest of the two was MUCH closer. Yet another off-target deep throw by Pennington into double coverage.

Had Pennington managed to get that pass to the OUTSIDE (where Ginn was), then the falling down would have been a problem. As it was, the pass was straight to Ed Reed (IIRC).

Pennington is the reason we were even in the playoffs to begin with.  Pennington had a 2-year deal, if I remember correctly, and should play out the last year of his contract.  Beyond that, if he wants to return as our backup, I'm sure he'd be welcome.

Pennington in 2009 for sure.  Get him some help at OG and WR, see if we can help him by being able to power run instead of relying on cutesy sweeps and the like, and see what he can do.  Henne in 2010 suits me fine.  I don't want to see a 2 QB system.

Henne = Rodgers

I admit penny may not have the best arm for the deep ball,  but I'd rather have him than a guy who can throw the deep ball and get 22 pics a season(farve).  I don't know what game you guys were watching this weekend but i saw a qb who was trying as hard as he could to get something done.  what do you expect him to do throw the ball and run down the field and catch it for a touchdown?  at one point he only had three receivers to throw to and they were not fast enough or smart enough to breakaway from the defense.  Also if penny dropped back farther than a 3 step drop there were more black jersey's then white in from of him.  on top of all that his running backs couldn't get past the line of scrimmage.  so he forced some throws, he had to.  penny is the least of my worries on this team for next year.  offensive line and receivers and a defensive secondary is what needs attention.   if Henne starts next year the dolphins will only win 4-5 games max......guaranteed.   Stop with the crazy talk!!!!

Read my original post.  I'm talking about Pennington's entire career, not specifically yesterday's game.  Pennington had a bad game against a good defense, that happens.  However, I believe Pennington is not at his best when he has to throw 35-40 times per game.  Some QBs (Marino) are perfectly capable of taking over a game doing that, Pennington isn't one of them. 

  Stay the course with Henne.   He is the future of this team.  See how he is come camp & if he shows he is ready the start him.  If he does appear to be ready then keep Pennington as starter, until that time or Pennington gets hurt.

Pennington should be the starter in 2009, as he has earned that right. The man just had an MVP season and while he was disastrous on Sunday, he is still our bets option. I like having the luxury of Henne watching and learning under brilliant football minds for 2 years. I would've liked him to see some time this season, but almost every game was close and we always were in a must win situation.

If that happens again in 2009, so be it. I won't be complaining that Henne has no snaps because we need to win a game to clinch a playoff berth.

Roll with Pennington coming out of the gate next year, but start giving Henne more run with the first team during practice. In games where we're either up big or down big, get him on the field...and then if you ""need" to use Henne down the stretch, he'll be better prepared.

Also...and I swear this isn't me just prolonging my Beck-bitchslap campaign...I wouldn't mind seeing a different #3 QB brought in to start developing as well. Don't spend any kind of draft pick before round 6-7, but some high-ceiling raw prospect would work for me in that slot.

screw that i want tebow.

I'd take Beck before Tebow.

I don't want either... I don't want Tebow because his cost would be too high for a team that just spent a 2nd rounder on their QB of the future, and I don't want Beck because he sucks balls.

Have you told him this? It could just be that no one has thought to tell him he's supposed to throw them not suck them?!

I sat down with Beck a few months ago and told him...

"Look, kid...it's getting pretty obvious that you completely suck balls as a quarterback. Have you considered tennis or something? I know you went on a mission for the mormon church...will God take ya back for another go? If you need to use me as a reference, John...you know I'm good for it."

;)

Tebow = Eric Crouch.

I read something like Tebow took 3 snaps from under center all season.  3 snaps.  I don't watch the Gators so I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it speaks volumes.  The guy can only operate out of the shotgun?  Really?

Mark this thread!  Tim Tebow will be an NFL bust.

I haven't seen Tebow play, but the comparison to Crouch might be a little harsh. The two college stats that correlate the best with NFL success are completion percentage and games started. Crouch completed only 51.5% of his college passes, while Tebow has completed 66%.

NFL scouts agreed and Crouch was never going to be an NFL quarterback. The Rams drafted him to be a receiver before he wussed out.

Crouch was also 6-0 and 210 pounds, whereas Tebow is listed at 6-3 and 240 pounds.

Tebow's numbers (both college stats and physical stats) are a lot closer to Roethlisberger than Crouch. Not saying Tebow will ever be a decent quarterback - nor that he'll ever even get the chance - but the comparison to Crouch seems odd (and denigrating).

Crouch was more like Antwan Randle El. A small college quarterback with good speed and a completion percentage in the 50% range. Crouch and Randle El also both had something like 50% more passing yards than rushing yards in college, whereas Tebow has 3 times more passing yards than rushing yards.

I think Tebow has a future in the NFL.... but not at QB.

how have you guys never seen more than one of his games? all they talk about on tv is Tim Tebow..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxWFDgQyZgo

Penny is coming back with a bad taste in his mouth.......again. He wasn't here for training camp last year. This time you let them compete and let the best man win. I don't see Beck holding a clipboard next year.

Let's keep this on topic...it isn't a Tebow thread, it's a "who do you want as Miami's QB"  thread, and there is zero chance of Miami drafting Tebow.

Despite Pennington's success this (regular) season, I never wanted any vet to come in for more than a "let me warm the seat until the rookie can get up to speed" scenario, as I am STILL considering Miami as a team at the base of a massive rebuilding job. Sure, 11 wins are groovy, and they got Miami some long-missed media love, but I STILL want to see Henne get up to speed as quickly as possible so we can take the next step in the rebuild.

I think it's a little too early to be predicting "who" should be our starting QB next season....I feel too much rests on what the off season brings us...

I've said it over and over on TDMMC Saturday night,I think Henne should get every opportunity to start in training camp.I feel given the harder schedule,and that Pennington needs the players around him to make the plays...I think we need to remember we're still a rebuilding team,and we got some ...err umm fortuitous luck this year....Brady going down,Playing the 2 worst divisions in football,making west coast teams travel to Miami,playing Buffalo in Toronto in a dome,playing in New York with really nice Weather for December...

I also feel like the offense will become stagnate with the lack of big play ability of Pennigton...I'm on the fence on Ginn,but feel we'll not know what he's capable with Pennington at QB....

I also think that group of fans that when we win 2 wins,seem to think we can beat anyone in the league...Then when we lose one,they want half the team cut,and coaches fired...Are going to be the first to scream bench Pennington when we lose a couple in a row next year....We can't erase our 1 win season of 07,regardless of how many wins we get the next couple of wins....

I also Feel like if we start Henne the season's not lost,as mentioned by someone earlier,let's remember 2 rookie QB's made the Playoffs...And Henne taking over for Pennington...is no where near the same as Arron Rodgers,replacing Brett Farve....

Pennington a little better = Jay Fielder They are both care takers types....

By the way I didn't realize that Nebraska is a small school (referring to Eric Crouch)

Chad, definitely Chad!

Book it!

I say  and  i hadve been saying it  all this time,  give the rights to Penny he deserves it.  Henne will get his chance .

I'm just grateful that we are having this argument with two decent QB's rather than trying to figure out which of the three on the roster is the least bad :)

Actually it is an argument between a decent QB and an unknown QB. 

I think it's a little early and optimistic to call Henne a decent NFL QB at this point.  He's only played in one NFL game thus far.  

How many times have we heard the decent QB argument?

Trent Green
Daunte Culpepper
Joey Harrington
Gus Frerotte
Sage "Mr Preseason" Rosenfels
Brian Griese
Ray Lucas
AJ Feeley

you think Jay fiedler was better than pennington?

If we want to start Henne, we need to take a serious look at what teams like the Falcons and Ravens have done right with their young quarterbacks: Stick to the running game, solid offensive line with lots of max-protect and keep things simple for the quarterback.

The last part is, for some reason, very difficult for coaches to understand, yet almost all examples of young, successful quarterbacks were allowed the luxury of simplicity early in their career (think Roethlisberger).

It's very difficult for a college quarterback to go through all the reads required in a fully-fledged NFL offense. If we do go with Henne, we need to accept that and NOT run the same offense we would have, had Pennington been under center.

Both pre-snap and post-snap reads need to be reduced. The Falcons and Ravens accomplished both by using plenty of max-protect. Keeping more blockers in reduces the need to make blitz-adjustments, givers the QB more time in the pocket and does away with a bunch of receiver reads the quarterback would never get through anyway (and the opposing team would know this with some simple scouting).

I read somewhere that no team ran on 3rd and 10+ more than the Falcons and they did so like 50% of the time. On first and 10, both teams ran around 2/3rds of the time. That kind of dedication to the run really helps a young quarterback settle in and develop.

Sure, if your young QB has a canon of an arm, it's perfectly reasonable to take shots down the field (which Flacco does), but it should never be forced.

Henne won't be a rookie. 

Huge difference between starting your rookie year and starting year 2.  Very difficult for a rookie to learn the entire playbook in camp.  And even if Henne doesn't have it completely memorized now, there is absolutely no reason for him not have it mastered before camp starts. 

Nope I actually think they're both pretty much the same....
I think Pennigton is a little better,they both have their strengths and weakness' but both are caretakers and need playmakers around them,they aren't game changers in themselves...

Chad Pennington Played in 69 games in his time with the Jets...(8 years) Jay Fiedler played 62 games in 5 years...
Accuracy Chad>> Jay
Leadership Chad> Jay
Decision making Chad> Jay
Velocity on the Ball Chad < Jay
Atheletcism Chad<< Jay
They Both had alot of heart,both need trick plays and playaction and playmakers around them to make the big plays...

Word


For starters,That's the offense that Parcells,Henne,Sparano,and Ireland wanted to run this year...They wanted it to be a run first,throw off of playaction..They envisioned a Titans,Panthers type offense....Youth/in expierence up front people stacking 9 in the box,made them resort to the short passing game....

It's not about knowing the playbook. That's a very, very small part of it.

The ability to read defenses, make adjustments, go through all your receiver reads (and not just throw to the guy you KNOW is going to be open in college) is a huge hurdle - one many college quarterbacks never clear.

Sure, there's a difference between a rookie QB and one who's had a whole year on the bench (in the same system). A big difference.

That doesn't mean a YOUNG, INEXPERIENCED quarterback shouldn't be "coddled" initially. Quarterbacks are a huge investment and risking it by forcing your quarterback into the deep end too soon is just stupid.

The point is, you can't just suddenly decide from day-to-day that your offense was too complicated for your quarterback and simplify it. It's a complete offensive system and needs to be part of the plan from day 1.

The playbook we used this season, regardless of how well Henne knows it, wouldn't be well-suited for him. We pretty much NEVER used max-protect schemes. The playbook required Pennington to read the defense very well, adjust and then go through numerous reads. To expect Henne to be capable of that from the onset is completely unrealistic.

If we go with Henne (or even if we just want the OPTION of going with him), I think our #1 need in the draft / off-season becomes O-Line. Donald Thomas is back, which should be an improvement. Justin Smiley is back from IR, which is an improvement over Alleman. Even so, Carey's a free agent, so that needs to be addressed - and Ndukwe and Smiley weren't great to begin with. With Shawm Murphy and Alleman our best backups (plus Ndukwe is Thomas can win his spot back), we have very little qualified depth. Our O-Line was pretty bad this year, especially in run-blocking, and it really needs to improve.

^^^  I disagree.  NEP didn't water down  the offense for Cassel. 

And while it is true their is more to developing than learning the playbook.  Put you don't need to play to learn how to read defenses.  You learn how to do it in the film room, you get experience on the field but you learn to read them in the film room.   

I can't say whether the Dolphins should start Penny or Henne.  But I will say this, if they need to water down the offense for Henne, they should start Penny and give Henne another year of study in the film room. 

Fourth season vs second season is a huge difference.

Even after 3 seasons on the bench Cassell improved over the course of the season. 


Of course, because reading defenses in the film room is exactly like doing it during a game.

Gotta go - I'm scheduled to perform brain surgery this afternoon and need to watch the medical channel to learn how to do it.

penny will start ... only way henne gets to sniff the field is if chad gets hurt (and when it doesn't count in preseason).

dolphins still have a lot of holes to fill and i would like to see them concentrate on defense. pass rushing de, dt, cb, and maybe an upgrade at mlb.

It's not a question of "watering down the offense". That term insinuates that you're talking the existing offense and making it simpler. That's rarely a good thing (although it can be necessary if your star quarterback goes down in the middle of the season and your backup has little experience). As I said, "it's a complete offensive system". It needs to be tailored to your inexperienced quarterback from the ground up.

Take pretty much every young quarterback with success recently and that's what's been done. Staying with the Ravens, Kyle Boller represents a pretty good example of doing the opposite. Boller was asked to do WAY too much from the get go and looked lost out there. If your young quarterback looks lost, blame the OC or HC. Simple as that.

Your ability to make stupid pointless analogies knows no bounds.  Watching a one hour show on the discovery channel makes you no more qualified to preform surgery, than my watching one hour program on quarterbacking on NFLN makes me qualified to be an NFL QB.

But doctors don't learn to perform surgery thru trial and error.  And it is not a bright idea to have your QB learn that way either.

First doctors learn thru some film study but mostly book study.  Then they "practice" on cadavers.  But they don't perform surgery "on game day" until they already know how to do it.

If Henne can't read a defense and Pennington is healthy then Pennington should be playing.  Unless the Dolphins goal is to get the first pick in the 2010 draft.

Henne needs to be able to quickly identify a defense by looking at it thru an end zone camera angle.   And orally telling the OC the adjustment he would make.   

My point was not that Henne won't improve during the course of the season in which is playing, of course he will need to.  My point is there is a lot one can learn off the field.  And the deciding factor on who starts should be "is Henne ready?"

You're a moron.  Take your lame jokes to the Off Topic forum.  Better yet, take them to another site.

Agreed ... it is only exceeded by the ability of TDMMC members to be irritated by them. 

The only difference between my lame jokes and your lame posts are that I realize I'm making a joke when I post.  Lameness doesn't come naturally for all of us Tommy.

Pennington starts until he shows he can't produce.  If Henne can read defenses like Pennington and be the main reason we led the league in TO differential, then he should get the nod due to the "stronger arm" theory.  Fiedler had a stronger arm than Pennington but I hardly remember him hitting a receiver running down the sideline without throwing it out of bounds.  I admit I'm not a big Fiedler fan.  I'm not sold on unproven QBs so Henne sits.  In all fairness though, he hasn't really had the opportunity.  The young Marino also has me biased.  That guy broke the mold...no great rushing game and/or dominating defense like Ben, Flacco, and Matt Ryan had.

Marino was the exception ... and he was helped by both a strong running game and defense his first couple of seasons.

Ahh the classic playing of the " I'm making a joke" excuse.

Can you get through a thread without atacking Ronnie?

  First thing's first, all this talk about Tim Tebow is null and void.  Tebow is returning to school, which is the smart thing for him to do.

  Anyways, Coach Sparano came out and already said that Pennington would be the starter going into 2009.  That's the way it should be.  There was an article recently in the Miami Herald where Henne talked about how being Chad's apprentice has helped his growth tremendously.  As long as Penny plays well, Henne should get the Aaron Rodgers treatment.

I am shocked that a Dolphan fan would insult Chad Pennington like that!  By all accounts Pennington as been a model mentor.  Lord Favre treated Rodgers like an unwanted hemorrhoid. 

Even a troll such as myself would not insult Penny by comparing Henne's treatment to Roger's treatment.   

Did anyone else believe I was scheduled to perform brain surgery or just bs mooth?  Tommy? 

Just in case ... I'm not a brain surgeon.  I hope that clears up any confusion.

no, nobody thinks you are a brain surgeon. fear not. 

but you were attempting to make a point that the only way Henne would improve as a QB would be by playing instead of in film study.  You were arguing against my comment that if Henne isn't ready he should spend more time in the film room, learning to read defenses etc.

a point that you completely contradicted when you also said that there was a difference between Cassel and Henne as Cassel was in his 4th year and Henne would be in his second, being Cassel spend all three of those years on the sideline.   

They should start a show on Comedy Central called "Henne vs. Penny"

OK that was lame  ;D

You were not making a joke, you were making one of your now famous/infamous snide and sarcastic swipes. Then when someone calls you on it, you come up with a lame excuse about it being a joke.

Sorry for pointing out facts.  Maybe other members will finally take off their rose colored glasses and actually look at Ronnie.

We're looking at him just fine SpongeBob Tepop

Cassel had 4 mini-camps, 4 training camps, and 3 years of film study and attending NFL practices going into this season.  He was probably as prepared as any first time starter has ever been.  Yet, he still showed considerable improvement throughout the season. 

There's only so far one can progress without on the job training.

Geez, I'm not sure if I should apologize for hurting your feelings or post a picture of a crying baby. 

The fact that just about everything I do irritates you makes me smile.  I'd be crushed if you ever found the inner strength to ignore me. 

Totally disagree.  I actually can't believe you just said that.

The first few games Cassell played, how many passes of 20+ did he throw?  How many passes of 20+ does Brady throw in a typical game?  what about 40+? 

The first 3-4 games Cassell started, the Patriots' offense became very vanilla, short passes and run oriented.  Maybe it plays to Cassell's strengths, but in reality its very different from the Brady-to-Moss air-it-out game the Pats usually are known for.

They ran the same plays.  But passing plays typically give the QB 2-4 options and the QB then after the ball is snapped decides who to throw the ball to based on who is open. 

Last year it was not uncommon for Brady to to throw Moss a pass slicing it between two defenders 20 yards down the field while Wes was totally open.  Cassel was more inclined to take the short dump off to the open man then the more risky throw it into double coverage. 

But the offense was the same.  The OC was calling the same plays the WR were running the same routes, the difference was in the QB's decision making during the check down.   

Not sure the qb issue matters at this point if we don't shore up the O line. Next year's schedule has us playing Carolina, TB, Tennessee, Pittsburgh, and Indy.  That's at least five teams outside of our own division that can kill the run and pressure whoever is under center. My personal opinion is that Pennington got us where we were this year, but he did it against a much easier schedule than what we will be seeing in '09.  Barring injury, he should (and will) start the season, but 8 games in, it's possible we will make a change based less on quarterback performance and more on the defenses we've played.  If we would've played 6-8 teams with defenses closer to Baltimore, than the 6-8 we played that included the Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks, Chiefs, Texans (who actually beat us), and Rams, who's to say Henne wouldn't have gotten in THIS year? ~EK