The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

About midway through the season, I said that if Warner got the Cards to the Super Bowl, that's a punched ticket to Canton.  If he manages to win that game, I think he'll be a first-balloter.

What are the arguments against?

The arguments against?  200+ fumbles and interceptions in only 110 games.  His St. Louis teams were ridiculously talented. Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald could make any qb look good. I don't think he should get in, but I think he will somehow.

Didn't seem to do much before or after he was there.

...except Josh McCown, Shaun King, Matt Leinart, and Tim Rattay?

They started sucking while Warner was still there, so pretty much your argument doesn't make any sense.  (oops 2002 Warner was 0-6 as a starter but the rams finished 7-9, lol at your argument)

Are you going to ignore all his terrible years in NY, and Arizona. He had 3 good years in St. Louis in his career.  He doesn't deserve the HOF.

Oh, you mean the season where he broke a finger in his hand and Martz continued to put him on the field for three games?  The one season that is a dramatic variance from every other season he's played?  Great example.  It's a good thing 99-01 don't count, or anything.  The whole 2 MVPs (plus SB MVP) in three seasons thing probably isn't relevant.

Eli Manning has yet to put up a passer rating (for the entire season) that matches Warner's from the one year he was there.  As for the Cardinals... Bill Bidwell owns them!  It's been well-established for years that Arizona is where players go to die.  The mere fact that Warner took the Cardinals to the Super Bowl is one of the major reasons why he should be considered.

Warner has been stuck on garbage teams since he left the Rams.  But even on these trashy squads, he's consistently put up a passer rating in the mid-high 80s every year (save this one, where he posted a 96.9).

And again, this year doesn't count, right?

Warner did not have "3 good years" in STL.  He had three of the greatest years of any QB ever.

But most importantly, Warner has taken two of the most consistently horrible teams in the league (STL and ARI) and elevated them to Super Bowl status.  It's not like he won with the Steelers or the Cowboys; these are teams with many, many years of entrenched futility, and he turned them both into contenders.

He definately deserved the MVP over Manning

LOL, 99-01 are not the greatest years of any qb ever.  lol.  He has only started 85 games in the NFL, yet has over 200 fumbles and interceptions.  His season in NY was pretty good, 12 fumbles in 10 games.  the 99-01 rams had so much offensive talent you could take any average qb and he would have put up as numbers similar to Warner. JC, Trent green started 5 games in 2000 and threw 16 tds.  Doesn't take a genius to figure out that maybe it was Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Az Hakim etc.  Yea, he has brought the Cardinals to the super bowl, but he hasn't put up that great of numbers this year even though he has larry fitzgerald and anquan boldin.

Warner is, in my opinion, one of the greatest pocket passers of all time. If you can protect him, he's awesome. Let him get hit and he coughs up the ball.

To get in the HoF, you have to either have dominated at your position over many years or have redefined the position. (Or be liked enough by the Peter Kings of the world).

I think the argument for Warner goes via "The Greatest Show on Turf". That type of completely, insanely pass-oriented play (which also happens to be exactly what the Cardinals did in the regular season this year). They Rams had 500+ points in each of those 3 years (no other team has had even 2 consecutive 500+ seasons), were first in total offense all three years, set a record for total offense (yards) and most passing yards in 2000 - plus of course the Super Bowl records and MVP awards...

He's very much a "system quarterback", though, and I think that's the biggest knock against him. I really do think he's better that anyone of "his time" when given a chance in a system like the one in St. Louis or the one in Arizona now. Make him scramble for his life once in a while and he plummets way down the list.

Should he get in? I think he's borderline simply because he has so many weaknesses. Being able to excel only in a very narrow set of circumstances isn't a good thing, even if he is the best given those circumstances.

only 2 qbs who played after 1970 who are in the hall of fame started less than 150 regular season games.  Roger Staubach had 114 and Joe Namath 130.  Warner has 85.  I don't think there is any reason he should be in the hall of fame.

I think we can all agree on that one. :D

As for the Hall... I think he'll get in if he pulls this off.

Kurt Warner will be in the Hall-Of-Fame - reaching his 3rd Super Bowl (2nd different team) has locked it in.

He has 10+ NFL seasons
He also has Arena Championships and played in NFL Eurpoe (remember this is the PRO FOOTBALL HOF, not the NFL HOF - Warren Moon's non-NFL days were heralded for his HOF ceremony / induction)
He has 2 NFL MVP's
He has 1 Super Bowl
Does he also have a Super Bowl MVP from 1999?
He will be playing in his 3rd Super Bowl

If INTs and Fumbles are counting against a QB going to the HOF, Brett Favre has no chance to get in. (And after two weeks, Kurt Warner will have played in more Super Bowls and may very well have more rings than Favre, yet he is a lock.)

Brett Favre 253 regular season starts
Kurt Warner 101 regular season starts

lol.  hilarious that you would say because favre is a lock warner should be.

BS

Super Bowls don't earn you the hall of fame.

Five years after he retires will you look back on Kurt Warner and think "wow, that guy was one of the greatest QB's in NFL history"

If the answer is no, then he doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame.

We have to get away from this mentality that people who win super bowls automatically deserve to be in the hall of fame.  Its not how you measure greatness of an individual.

Donovan McNabb has a lot of regular season starts. Is his fat ass going to the hall of fame?

Was Warren Moon one of the greatest QB's in NFL history? That's VERY VERY Debatable...but he also played in the AFL or CFL or whatever, and HOF voters took that into consideration. Warner won in Arena, played in NFLE, and took 2 teams to the super bowl, winning at least 1 for the moment. He is also a 2-time NFL MVP and a Super Bowl MVP if I am correct.  That's a good bag of credentials right there.

And to anyone who brings up seasons played or games started or NFL years of service - another player that I think is a bum is Terell Davis, He only played 4 actual NFL seasons, even though he officially played 8 somehow. Yet he had 1 MVP and 1 2,000 yard season and 2 Super Bowls, everyone wets their panties about this total hack bum RB who played behind the most under-rated OL of all-time. Yet he holds no rushing records, starts records, consecutive games streak, and other irrelevant bullshit...do you not want him in the HOF either?

Phil Simms is in the HOF, but when I "look back", I do not rank him or think of him as one of the best QB's of all-time. But he WON. That IS huge and can get you over the hump in a hurry. And it is definitely a factor in HOF voting - we definitely don't need to get out of the winning mentality, no sir.

Name any QB, ever, that has had a better 3-year stretch.

And he also has 182 TDs and 48 300-yard passing games in that same time frame.  What is your point?

The '90s Cowboys offensive line was so overpowering that any RB could have walked through those gaping holes.  Therefore, Emmitt Smith is really a bum.

Steve Young had Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens.  He sucked before he got to SF.  Therefore, he was really just an average QB.

Yeah, his numbers sucked.

Warner (with Fitzgerald and Boldin) in 2008:
401/598 (67.1%), 4583 yds, 30 TD, 14 INT, 96.9 rating

Manning (with Harrison, Wayne, and Clark) in 2008:
371/555 (66.8%), 4002 yds, 27 TD, 12 INT, 95.0 rating ...and an MVP trophy

If Fitzgerald and Boldin are supposedly this automatic win button that makes any scrub QB look like the Football Jesus, why is Matt Leinart on the bench?

Kurt is a fine human being, but one of the greatest ever?  Not now but maybe later.

I'd stop way short of calling him the greatest ever.  However, I would say he's got the greatest storyline on how he busted his ass to get to where he is. 

He signed with the Packers in 1994 as a undrafted FA and was quickly cut after two preseason games he never played in.  He was stocking shelves at a local supermarket at one point, then played Arena Ball and in NFL Europe.  Then he basically rode the pine for the Rams for a couple seasons. 

He has a great story.  So do we put Wes Welker in before Randy Moss because one was an UDFA and the other was drafted in the first round?  Does Doug "to short to be a QB in the NFL" Flutie get inducted? 

While I like the story lines of Kurt Warner, Wes Welker, Greg Camarillo, and Matt Cassel, better than the story lines of Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, or  LaDainian Tomlinson the story line doesn't make a compelling reason for induction. 

Was the player one of the greatest of all time? 

I didn't say that his storyline alone should get him into the Hall of Fame..... but as far as heart warming storylines go, that's the best I've heard.

I agree with Tommy and Jtex.  Warner's story is part of his HOF appeal.  He's worked his way up from the bottom, more than once.  He's had success at different levels, on different teams.

I don't like Warner, but I think that he's a HOFer.  He's got the total package -- multiple winners, Rings, MVP Awards, TD numbers, etc.

Not to mention that he sat on the bench in favor of a more "stud" QB (Trent Green and Matt Leinart).... then when he got his chance, he made the team into a contender.

If Warner wins this one, he's in for sure.

We should just induct every player of every team that has ever won the super bowl into the hall of fame instantly.

Why does the QB get all the credit?  Is Torry Holt a hall of famer?  He won a super bowl.  What about Trent Dilfer?  Brad Johnson? 

You can't just say "so-and-so won a super bowl, he deserves to be in the hall".  You have to have more than that.  Similarly, you CAN get into the hall without winning a super bowl.

So, why all the attention on Super Bowl performance?  Its one freakin' game, and it requires a strong TEAM, not a great player.

I do not think number of games played is a huge factor.  Dwight Stephenson only played in 114 games & he is in.  His career cut short by the knee injury.  Gale Sayers only played 4 full seasons.  Warner got a late start at age 28.  

Also, where are you getting 85 games?  NFL.com has him at 109.

Warner will get consideration, especially if the Cards win the Super Bowl.  He is in no way a 1st ballot HOFer.
 

Peter King (who holds one of the 44 votes) doesn't think Warner is HoF material (yet, anyway), but believes he'll be one of the sole "nay" votes.

Whether or not Warner makes it on his first shot, probably depends on who else is up that year. It's not unrealistic that Favre and Warner could be up for the HoF in the same year. Favre is (and no amount of pointing to interception statistics will change this) a first ballot HoF'er.

Agreed about Favre, but not because of his super bowl rings.  Its because he broke all of the major career passing records (because he doesn't know when to hang up the cleats - anyone can break the records if they play enough seasons).

I got the number from pro-football-reference.com and the regular season game started had not been updated for 2008.  He has 101 games started.

At least it shouldn't be ....

I don't know about the anyone bit.

I'd have to take a good look at what Warner did between the Rams and Cards but he's not on the  first ballot. 

Also, Warren Moon was a stud in the NFL which is why he's in the Pro Football Hall of Fame...college, Arena, NFL Europe, that stuff is just filler.

If Joe Namath is in, with one superbowl ring, a carreer completion percentage of 50% and more interceptions than touchdown passes, Warner should be a lock.

Joe Namath was a not-insignificant factor in the AFL-NFL merger.  He is not a good measuring stick.

Joe Namath is a worthless pile of gator shit.  No redeeming value whatsoever.

I disagree and say he is an accurate measuring stick because the Hall of Fame is for the best ever regardless of when they played.  So if the worthless pile of gator shit is in the hall of fame, Kurt Warner, who actually has some redeeming value as a player and doesn't repeatedly embarrass himself publicly, and who has the same number of superbowl rings should also be in the hall of fame. 

  Namath is in, because guaranteed the SB 3 win & he was the QB of the Jets when they beat the Colts to provide the AFL as a legit league which lead to the merger.  Using his stats & compare them to today players is not a fair gauge..  Back then DB could basically tackle Wr during their routes.

The HOF is not only about being the best players, but meaning to the league.

Wait...you mean it's actually the NFL Hall of "Fame," rather than the NFL Hall of "Statistical Achievement?"

Who would have guessed?  ;)

If you use Joe Namath's career statistics as a measuring stick for the HOF, then they will need to build another wing to accommodate all the extra QBs.

He did not get in based on his career statistics; he got in based on the guarantee of a win that basically facilitated the AFL-NFL merger.  This is why he is not a good measuring stick.

Amen.

All of this further underscores my point.  Joe Namath is in the hall of fame for ONE WIN.  And he's not responsible for the AFL NFL merger as much as Lamar Hunt and Pete Rozelle are.  He happened to be in the right place at the right time, with a head coach who was going against essentially his own players in Weeb Eubank.

So if Namath can be in the hall of fame for ONE WIN and being in the right place at the right time, why can't Warner be in the hall of fame for (ignoring his entire body of work) the Greatest Show on Turf and the Superbowl win over the Titans in 1999?

If Tommy Maddox led the Los Angeles Xtreme to a win over the New England Patriots, facilitating an XFL-NFL merger, then we would be comparing apples to apples.

Otherwise, you're wasting your breath.  There is no point in using Namath as a measuring stick because no other QB has won a game of that historical magnitude.  Namath got in based on Super Bowl III, plain and simple... if there's another game with similar significance, the QB that wins THAT game will probably get in, too.

The reason the NFL and AFL merged was player salaries.  Namath signed an ungodly contract worth nearly half-a-million dollars including $30k each for his brother and brother-in-law.  The big wigs got together and said it's time for a merger.  Namath was the catalyst.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375725067&view=excerpt

Joe Namath does not belong in the hall of fame, Kurt Warner does. 

Namath led them to whopping 16 pts. Maybe every guy on defense from that Jets team should be in the hall of fame instead of Namath.

He was the MVP of the Super Bowl.  What more do you want?

  It may have only been one win, but it was a hell of a win.  Yes, Hunt & Rozelle played the more important roles, but it was the Jets win that helped sell & validate the AFL.

Al Davis had a big hand in that too.  He was the original commissioner of the AFL.  This guy was dynamite when he was young and lucid.  He signed enough players from the NFL to make NFL team owners VERY nervous about what the AFL could do in the years to come with their gaudy looking uniforms and their tendency to throw the ball a lot.  That's another big reason why the merger took place.   

Here's a trivia question.  Which three AFC teams were originally in the NFL prior to the merger, but agreed to move to the AFC when the merger took place?

I got it...Pittsburgh, Baltimore (at the time, now Indianapolis) Colts, Cleveland

Anybody that watches the tape of Super Bowl III can see that it wasn't so much a Jets win as it was the Colts imploding.Baltimore bungled the game away time after time(and yes,that is part of the game...the only thing that counts is the final score)but they missed wide open receivers,fumbled,and in general shot themselves in the foot all day.Namath was a great athlete until he hurt his knees and a very accurate passer.......but if he is in the hall of fame then they should let Jim Mcmahon in.IMO Kurt Warner is a better quarterback than either one of them.Does Kurt belong in the hall?I just don't know.

  Got to see Warner's wife tonight for the first time since they last appeared in the SB & you know what.  She looked feminine. 

Warner's wife has changed her look a lot.  She used to look like GI Joe.

Warner is a HOF - easily.  It's not his fault that so many teams missed the boat on this guy. Could you imagine what he would have done, numbers wise, had he been "discovered" sooner?

Super Bowl MVP, two time NFL MVP, three SB appearances, two different teams, top three passing records all time SB belong to Kurt, he's #1, #2 and #3.  Not to mention the stats he has put even with the Giants. 

One of the best ever - had he been able to play longer there would be a lot of records with his name after them.

I have nothing but respect for Kurt Warner as a person and now as a football player.  He put that team on his back and came up just short.  Props to Kurt.  Don't retire yet.

He sure looked great against one of the best defenses in NFL history.

 Was it the fact he was undiscovered or the fact his skills developed latter?

What hurts Warner is this.  The Yrs of 2002 through 2006.   He threw 27 Tds to 34 Ints.     When Warner has been good he has been real good.  When he has been bad he has been real bad.  Right now his career is 5 really good Yrs  to 5 really bad years.

Not so much his skills developing as much as being put in a system where any average qb can put up huge numbers.

They replayed an old interview on Focus on the Family with Kurt and his wife last week.  When Dobson asked if he could ask her a question and it was football related, she said sure but she was used to the first question always being "why do you wear your hair like that? "  I thought it was pretty funny that she had a sense of humor about it.

Maybe Warner has Homo attachments and that hairstyle killed 2 birds with 1 stone........... ::)

More like he's no stockboy anymore and if she wished to keep her stud knocking at her stall she needed to spend a little time making herself look decent before some little fan found her way into the back seat of his SUV.......you know the one with the Jesus loves you bumper sticker.......... ;D ::)

^ can you ever say anything nice about someone

Good points, could be either.  I would toss this out there as a devil's advocate thing:  Brett Favre, HOF - yes?  He has had some lean years that reflect that "when he's bad he's bad" line of thinking, yes?  And - to be counterproductive here, had Favre not hung on as long as he did would have have the stats to be in the HOF?

Sure........I bet Kurts wife looks great naked, nothing like a 10 yr old boy.  :)