The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012302935_pf.html

This story angered me tremendously. I'm shooting first.

That story is disturbing.

Gabriel, if you shoot first, then you won't live to tell anyone about it.  They have more bullets and more bodies than you.

Every person with authority should be sued to death in civil court.  Pensions should be forfeited.  Homes lost.  There should be no limit.

For once, I have to agree here. 

They'll never take me alive!

Who was that crazy radio host who said "jack booted thugs" and "headshots"? 



http://blogofbile.com/tag/cheye-calvo/

How incompetent do you have to be to not know the name of the Mayor of a town in your jurisdiction?


This happens disproportionally in that county?  Did someone set him up?  Perhaps a loved one of another victim tired of the thuggery decided shed light on this by getting a mayor involved?

The one thing that I think about while reading this article is the movie "Training Day."  Any time a search and seizure is served without a warrant one really needs to think about corruption.  Coupled with the fact that it sounded like this SWAT team was riddled with rookies and black and whites making a cameo...

Plausible deniability. 

Things that make you go hmmmmm.  The three wise men indeed.  This story stinks on levels where the article doesn't even go.

One of these days a raid like this is going to take place in the home of someone that is highly training to defend himself against multiple intruders and the end result is going to be much, much worse than the lives of two innocent animals.  Personally I would most likely follow SWAT instruction on a raid in my home due to the lives of my wife and child.  But then I think of people like my commanding officer, 35 year CID / counter terrorism / Green Beret-Ranger and the stuff this guy has in his house...no one would leave that SWAT alive.  Period.  I have no doubt in my mind that he could single handedly kill a small platoon by himself.  And I would have to think of those lives lost in that potential raid, young SWAT members "doing what they are told" - and then think about how much corruption was to blame versus "the war on drugs."

One day it's not going to be a Mayor of a town with organic veggies in the garden.  It's going to be a strung out veteran of four wars and countless combat tours that has finally had enough.

Makes you re-think Waco, doesn't it?

And then hopefully a guy like that will send a message to the corrupt source....... "You've fucked with the wrong man."

Maine, I agree with you totally. The manner in which the house was entered seems to be asking for someone to get killed. This sort of thing will probably continue happening until a bunch of cops get killed kicking down the wrong door.

The second amendment doesn't have a damn thing to do with hunting.

This problem will only get worse as more OIF and OEF vets leave the military and are greedily snatched up by police departments around the country.

True dat.  And how many of those guys shouldn't be in that position due to untreated PTSD?  I know that I was in no condition to carry a sidearm when I came back from DS1 - and I didn't see / experience a fraction of what those people are going through.

Probably more than are willing to to admit. I have a friend that I deployed with that jumps at every loud sound, even though we have been abck almost two years and he never got hit. You are going to have SWAT teams with members who have kicked down doors and lost friends doing it, and could flashback during one of these no knock raids.

Horrible story.

 :|

Funny you say that.  I got back and was walking down the street to get a Slushi and 7-11.  A car drove by and backfired and I dove head first into bushes without even thinking about it.  It was at that time I thought "yeah, I might want to get some help."  And I was pretty lucky - my unit had a three month R&R after we got back and cleared Devens.  I didn't have to do much of anything when I got back except learn how to mold back into "real life."  I can't imagine what I might have done with a sidearm, I dx'd it when we got back.

I have two questions?

1. Are they legally allowed to enter the home without a warrant in hand?

2. What are the criteria for a "no knock" raid, rather than knocking first?

The whole thing reeks of excessive force to me.  I think you could execute a warrant without such a show of force, especially in an area where there isn't usually much crime.

Modified to add: Is there help for soldiers coming home?  If so, would they take advantage of it or do most of them fall through the cracks?

My uncle was an MP when he was in the service. He didn't want to go into law enforcement as a civilian but I remember him saying back then (this has been over 10 years ago) that civilian police didn't want MPs because of the difference in their trainings. That of course may be different now and I'm sure it varies by department as well.

Basically no.  Or not nearly enough.  

My first 4th of July back I was driving during the day when I caught the flash from a firework out of the corner of my eye and swerved across the road to aviod the blast. I still have occasional problems when driving at night and shadwows look like something in the road.
Most of us do not go the the military counselors for two reasons.
1. It goes on your record( even though it isn't supposed to count against you)
2. They downplay the level of PTSD so they do not have to pay out the severances and pensions that someone with severe PTSD would get for being boarded out for their PTSD.
3. The military thinks that because a group of rape victims was cured of their PTSD that the same treatment will cure combat related PTSD and treat us the same.

This country historically looks the other way where veterans are concerned so why should this group (or the next) think it will be any different?  Pure speculation here but military funding will get cut much as it did when President Clinton balanced the budget.  That's not going to help the PTSD thing, but in President Obama's defense everything is getting cut.  In Clinton's defense, we weren't in a "war-type" situation during his time.

On a side note, PG County might truly be the armpit (putting it mildly) of the United States.  If you've ever been to PG, you know.  Suing SWAT members for kicking down doors doesn't jive with me but those in the upper ranks who set policy should be candidates for a financial beatdown.  Really, it's a lose-lose situation with the whole "break a few eggs/omelet" deal.  The war on drugs is a pipe dream--demand=supply.

The war on drugs is won/lost depending on how you look at it.

Can you go in your car and drive to MOST public places and be reasonably sure you are not going to be affected by Drugs?  Do you openly see drug use/sales in most public areas?  Of course it happens......but Most people can enjoy a drug free lifestyle becuase while there is no winning anything, we DO CONTROL it. Any drug dealer in this nation knows he cannot openly  do buissness without severe consquences. I have never walked up to a bunch of addicts in uniform and not seen them cover up quickly what they are doing.

This has nothing to do with the OP story though.  Thats a huge breakdown of intelligence and communication. How do you not know who the mayor is and where he lives?  Not only do we all know who every member of the counsul is we know were they all live and ANY contact with them , just a barking dog needs to be fully documented.  Who doesn't Check who owns a house before a raid?  I know we did have an incident a while back.

SWAT broke down the wrong door in an apartment. But to be honest the person who opened the door did slam it, yelled 5-0!! And was seen jumping out the back window.  They had gone to the wrong apartment and the person who lived there just happened to have a warrant for Agg battery on a pregnant person. guess what? They had no warrant and made a mistake by illegally entering that apartment. The guy still got arrested but al the drugs and the gun they found while in there was thrown out. His front door was paid for by the city as well.

Police are human beings as well. But they got to be accountable . If the story went like reported above , and I have no reason believing it didn't, Thats fucked up.  Thats a big city though. I think in NYC where i used to live  , if you are not a person in color you would be screwed as well going up against the NYPD. 

Where I live now our SWAT or any I know of in the state of Florida would not get away with that for a second. 

We were ... we just didn't realize/acknowledge it.

2/26/93 World Trade Center (6)
11/13/95 Saudi Arabia (5)
6/25/96 Khobar Tower barracks (19)
8/7/98 US embassy Tanzania (11)
8/7/98 US embassy Kenya (213)
10/12/00 USS Cole (17)

These two wars have included more breaching occupied homes and raids than any other war yet. Those experiences are burned into your psyche and these same troops are going to wind up on SWAT teams raiding occupied homes and it would not take much for a serious tradegy to happen if someone forgets they are not in Mosul, Ramadi or other shithole.

The police in Lebanon,Tn. did the same thing about 8 years ago.They had been watching a house and when time came to raid it,the idiots broke down the door of the house next door.The elderly woman that lived there with her husband of 50-plus years screamed,"Oh my God!Home invasion!"When her husband came from the rear of the house to see what was going on,He was shot and killed--because he had "something"in his hand(that something was a ballbat)The woman was knocked to the floor,handcuffed,questioned,much like the story.I wanted to vomit when the news showed the fat crew cut redneck cop that had pulled the trigger actually joking and laughing in the courtroom as the judge dismissed all charges against the police.I believe the city settled with the widow for $20,000.Of course the elderly couple were black so no one cared.

I was with ya up to that last statement bro. Thats fucking Bullshit nowadays and you Know it. 8 years ago as well. also While they made a wrong/illegal entry ,a Ballbat is not "nothing" bro.  When we raid a house we always have a Marked unit sit infront of the home with full lights so neighbors know its not a bunch of Masked intruders. Swat Members are dressed in black but have SWAT clearly written on the front and back and Badges out. If you still pick up a Bat...........it has NOTHING to do with color.

Come on Defense,if you live in an area where police are going to kick in doors for a drug raid you might fear home invasions! Your wife screams home invasion and their are armed intruders comming through your door.You don't take time read you react! Personally with a 12 gauge mossburg 29" pistol grip shot gun (shoot first ask questions later).I feel if want to search my home you need to knock on my door and present a warrant stating what your looking for and why you think it's in my home! I think I still live in America.

Fair enough........however cops deserve to go home at the end of the night as well. The element of surprise could and has saved lives. America is changing in alot of cities. That said..........if cops want to keep that privilege they had better do some damn investigating before they knock down the door of an innocent person. So if they do blow away somebody with a Ballbat , its a Turd who deserved it and not someones Grandpa.  Shit happens ain't gonna cut it if that happens.  :|

Only the lives of cops.  A simple knock on the door of that elderly couple and HIS life would have been saved. 

It's beyond logic when "trained professionals" are so easily confused between elderly and gang-bangers, housewives and druglords.  Most law enforcement mean well, but for some it's nothing more than being drunk with power.  Just like the cop who writes a ticket he knows will be thrown out just to inconvenience some schmoe going to work who now has to take a day off for court.

Here is a little common sense on this matter.

Say it's me that is the subject of this SWAT incursion.  I know damn well that I haven't broken any laws.  I don't even have a parking ticket on my record.  It's the middle of the night.  Suddenly I hear doors breaking and people storming into my home?

Seeing that I don't have anything to hide the last thing I am going to suspect is that a SWAT team is swarming inside my humble little castle.

Know what's going to happen long before I see the little "SWAT" across their chest?  I'll be standing nose to nose with someone and they'll be staring down two barrels of my G36's from point blank range.

People have a right to defend themselves when wrongfully accused.  If a person's home is being broken into and that person grabs a baseball bat?  So what?  That SWAT team needs to be prepared for everything.  They need to be prepared that they've marched in on 120 Columbian Drug Lords.  They need to be prepared that there are 15 dogs trained to die while attacking home invasions.  They need to be prepared that the home is rigged to explode.

They also need to be prepared that maybe, just maybe, they've entered the home of someone completely innocent and made a mistake.

And in my case they would have entered the home of someone completely innocent yet highly trained and armed.

That man had every right to pick up his bat.  Believe it or not having "SWAT" written across your chest doesn't give you the key to the kingdom.

The main reason for no knock was to prevent suspects from disposing of evidence before the cops could gain entry ( i.e. flushing).

Man, in this sort of situation, if you know that you aren't going to knock, you reeeeeally better make damned sure that you have all the details straight before plowing through the door.

Unlike Maine, I don't own a handgun or rifle of any kind, but if I am awakened in the middle of the night by someone "wrongfully" breaking through my door downstairs, I can guarantee you that I'll have a brace of stingers (3" throwing knives) strapped on and will try to drop a couple of the intruders as they come up the stairs. If they identify themselves as police or swat, then I'll show restraint, but if they don't ID themselves clearly at the start of the situation, I'm definitely coming out throwing.

Why don't you just cut up my post so it serves YOU and your bullshit agenda then? Post my whole quote so its not taken out of context.

Here it is again drama Queen.............

I quoted the relevant part.   Had the cops "done some damn investigating before they knock down the door of an innocent person" this thread wouldn't exist.

Not confusing the elderly and gangbangers, nor housewives and drug lords is an agenda?  Huh.  Would that be an anti-law enforcement agenda?  So then what's the agenda of people who favor confusing the elderly with gangbangers, and housewives with drug lords?  Pro-law enforcement? 

Are you this easily worked up when on the job or is this where you take out your frustrations?

Look bro......I'm not gonna give you the satisfaction of even getting into this any further. I guess you ran out of Obama crap so your bored?
I know I'm done defending you though.

My point exactly. With all the resources available to LEO's to confirm the identity of suspects and to ensure the right domicile is being targeted, there is no excuse for the murder of an innocent person in a raid. Immunity should go out the window at that point. I had sticter rules of engagement when dealing with possible vbied's and suicide bombers at the checkpoints I ran in Afghanistan than some officers do in this country. I had to make sure there was no doubt it was a hostile before I or my soldiers opened fire, and I had to justify any shooting that took place or face serious consequences.

Just because I elaborated/commented on one section of your post? 

It would take hundreds of posters working 24/7 to scrape the bottom of that barrell.  Politics is the gift that keeps on giving.  Obama's latest appointee was both a congressperson and a lobbyist on the side.  There are so many stories that they aren't even news anymore.     

No worries here.  I'm not an "all or nothing" type of person so I'll keep on posting what I think is right regardless of who agrees or disagrees.

That's just wrong.  Civilians should hold a lot more responsibility for their actions around soldiers --- especially in the case of a checkpoint where they're fully aware of the soldiers presence.   

I heard stories of Iraqi children wanting to play "soldier" with the GIs there.  The soldiers had to put a stop to it before a mistake was made.  One Lt. drew down on a little boy after the boy put a toy gun to the back of another GIs head.  The kid was just playing but nearly got himself killed.

I agree 100%.