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TDMMC Forums => Other Sports Talk => Topic started by: bsmooth on December 07, 2009, 09:20:59 pm



Title: Heisman time
Post by: bsmooth on December 07, 2009, 09:20:59 pm
Well the list is out and I was pleasantly surprised to see a defensive player on there. I would love to see a defensive player finally win this thing otherwise the Heisman is just the offensive equivilant to the Outland award and not the award for the best player.

Tim Tebow added another Heisman first to his long list of accomplishments just by being selected a finalists for this year's trophy.

Tebow became the first player to be invited to the Heisman Trophy presentation ceremony three times when the Florida quarterback — along with Colt McCoy, Mark Ingram, Toby Gerhart and Ndamukong Suh — was named a finalist Monday for college football's most prestigious player of the year award.

"Having the chance to go back to New York means a lot to me," Tebow said in statement. "It is a special honor but it wouldn't be possible for me to have this opportunity without my teammates and coaches."

The Heisman Trophy will be awarded Saturday in Manhattan. The presentation ceremony has been televised since 1981 and since 1982 at least three players have been invited to attend.

The last time as many as five players were invited to New York was 2004, when USC quarterback Matt Leinart won the award.

Tebow, who was the first sophomore to win the Heisman in 2007, is trying to become the second two-time Heisman winner, joining Ohio State's Archie Griffin. Tebow finished third in the voting last year, while getting the most first-place votes.

He's also the first player — and sixth overall — to finish in the top five of the Heisman balloting three times since Georgia tailback Herschel Walker did it in the early 1980s.

McCoy was the runner-up last season to Oklahoma's Sam Bradford and has led No. 2 Texas to the BCS national championship game this season.

Ingram has rushed for 1,542 yards and scored 15 touchdowns for No. 1 Alabama.

Stanford's Gerhart, meanwhile, has run for more yards (1,736) and scored more touchdowns (26) than any player in the nation.

And Nebraska's Suh had 4 1/2 sacks in an attention-grabbing performance against Texas in the Big 12 title game. He is the first defensive player to be a finalist since 1997, when Michigan cornerback Charles Woodson became the first full-time defensive player to win the Heisman.

Tebow and McCoy entered this season as heavy Heisman favorites, but neither has played as well as last year and neither will go into Saturday's presentation as the clear front-runner.

Tebow returned for his senior season to try and lead the Gators to a third national title in four seasons, but he won't reach that goal. After being No. 1 almost all season, Florida lost to Alabama 32-13 in the Southeastern Conference title game on Saturday and was knocked out of the national championship race.

The loss likely damaged Tebow's chances at a second Heisman, too. He has passed for 2,413 yards and rushed for 859 yards this year, but he hasn't been quite as productive as he was the past two seasons.

Like Tebow, McCoy also returned for his senior season to make a championship run. He has Texas a victory away from its first national title since 2005, but his numbers also have fallen off compared to '08.

McCoy has passed for 3,512 yards with 27 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. He also nearly threw away the Longhorns' national championship hopes on the second-to-last play of the Nebraska game, coming within a second of letting the clock run out before Texas could attempt the winning field goal in a 13-12 victory.

McCoy could become the first player to win the Heisman the season after finishing second since Walker did it in 1982.

If there is a favorite, it seems to be Ingram.

Hesimanpundit.com, which polls 13 voters throughout the season, had Ingram on top of it's latest results, just ahead of Gerhart.

Ingram could become Alabama's first Heisman Trophy winner. He gave his Heisman campaign a late boost by running for 113 yards and scoring three touchdowns in the SEC title game against Florida.

"I'm looking forward to the experience and appreciate the opportunity to represent our team at the Heisman ceremony," Ingram said in a statement.

Gerhart also ended his season with a flourish, running for 205 yards and three touchdowns and throwing a touchdown pass in a victory against Notre Dame.

"I am most pleased that my efforts along with those of so many others this year have put Stanford Football back on the national map," Gerhart said.

But nobody finished stronger than Suh, who put together one of the most dominant defensive games in recent college football history in Nebraska's near-upset of Texas.

"It is good to see that the Heisman voters have recognized the true impact a dominant defensive lineman like Suh can have on a football game," Nebraska coach Bo Pelini said.

Suh finished the season with 12 sacks in 13 games.

Among the top players who didn't make the cut were Clemson's versatile tailback C.J. Spiller and Boise State quarterback Kellen Moore.



Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: YoFuggedaboutit on December 07, 2009, 10:23:39 pm
I think Ingam's performance in the SEC Championship Game sealed it for him.  To play like he did on that big stage against the top defense in the nation should weigh heavily in his favor. 

I had McCoy winning it up until the Big 12 Championship Game.  He stunk up the joint in that game.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 07, 2009, 10:27:18 pm
My heart says Ingram, but my head says Gerhart.

I am sure Ingram will win it, but Gerhart was the most consistent player from beginning to end, the ENTIRE season.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 07, 2009, 10:32:39 pm
Gerhart:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/gamelog?playerId=188524

Ingram:
http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=379061


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: StL FinFan on December 07, 2009, 10:53:55 pm
DB is right.  It should be Gerhart but it will be Ingram.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: stinkfish on December 07, 2009, 10:56:56 pm
I'm pulling for Gerhart


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: gocowboys31 on December 07, 2009, 11:18:52 pm
The best player in college football is C.J. Spilller. How he wasn't invited is an insult. The guy is the most dangerous and explosive player in college football. I guess they missed his performance in the ACC title game.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: CF DolFan on December 08, 2009, 08:04:37 am
Doesn't many of the votes go in prior to this past weekend?


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 08, 2009, 09:16:23 am
Doesn't many of the votes go in prior to this past weekend?
Yes they did.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 08, 2009, 10:10:20 am
The best player in college football is C.J. Spilller.
CJ Spiller is electric, but you can't even convince me that he belongs there. Look at his stats. He had at least 4-5 irrelevant games....AND that's giving leeway....

http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=192151


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Sunstroke on December 08, 2009, 10:37:30 am
The best player in college football is C.J. Spilller.

I think the best player in college football right now is Ndamukong Suh...

I expect Ingram to win the Heisman though.



Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Rick on December 08, 2009, 11:54:15 am
I think the best player in college football right now is Ndamukong Suh...

I agree 100% Stroke!  If a defensive player ever were to win the Heisman, it should be Ndamukong Suh!  He had an outstanding year.....but that Big 12 Championship game against Texas...Suh played one of the best football games I have ever seen by a D-linemen!  The kid is a monster! 

If Suh dosen't win the Heisman, Toby Gerhart SHOULD win it. 


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: bsmooth on December 08, 2009, 04:49:00 pm
Why does the Heisman never go to a defensive player? I keep seeing where people post in various place that it is basically an offensive award.
Suh had a sack in 12 of 13 games while being double and triple teamed all season and he sacked Colt more times solo in the Big 12 championship game than almost all of the opposing teams facing Texas this year did


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: StL FinFan on December 08, 2009, 05:01:37 pm
Maybe this is the year a defensive player wins.  I only remember one.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Philly Fin Fan on December 08, 2009, 05:19:46 pm
Maybe this is the year a defensive player wins.  I only remember one.

You only remember one, cause there has only been one! (Charles Woodson)


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Sunstroke on December 08, 2009, 05:38:10 pm

^^^ Though in Woodson's case, the hard-line Heisman voters had to consider his contributions as a punt returner and occasional use as a WR for Michigan (25 receptions his last 2 years) in addition to his elite play on defense.



Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Philly Fin Fan on December 08, 2009, 05:48:10 pm
^^^ Though in Woodson's case, the hard-line Heisman voters had to consider his contributions as a punt returner and occasional use as a WR for Michigan (25 receptions his last 2 years) in addition to his elite play on defense.



Very true. He was actually on the Michigan roster as a CB/WR, but the official Heisman site lists him as a CB only.

But like I was stating in my reply to Stl, he is the only defensive player to have won it.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: bsmooth on December 08, 2009, 08:37:29 pm
No true defensive player has ever won as Woodson went both ways which raised his stock. He probably would not have won without the offensive stats


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: DZA on December 10, 2009, 10:21:10 am
the Heisman is a curse.   year after year  those who win the coveted prize go on to be Pro Bust.  Not to many succeed.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Sunstroke on December 10, 2009, 10:53:25 am
the Heisman is a curse.   year after year  those who win the coveted prize go on to be Pro Bust.  Not to many succeed.

There is no Heisman curse...just a wide and often confused gap between "what makes a great college football player" and "what makes a college football player a great pro prospect."



Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: YoFuggedaboutit on December 10, 2009, 10:54:14 pm
the Heisman is a curse.   year after year  those who win the coveted prize go on to be Pro Bust.  Not to many succeed.

Not necessarily.  About 1/3 are complete busts, 1/3 become nothing more than serviceable players, and 1/3 succeed, sometimes in a different role. 

Had to gravedig this. 

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=9086.msg92037#msg92037


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Dave Gray on December 11, 2009, 12:40:54 pm
Also, the college talent pool is so much larger than in the NFL.  A huge number of those players aren't going to make it in the NFL, period.

As for the Heisman, it's not meant to be a prediction of future players.  It's an award for current ones.  I think that Eric Crouch is a great example.  He was a great system QB in college, a great athlete, but ultimately, not cut out for the NFL.  The NFL will probably be the same way to a guy like Tebow.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Gabriel on December 11, 2009, 01:14:26 pm
Also, the college talent pool is so much larger than in the NFL.  A huge number of those players aren't going to make it in the NFL, period.

As for the Heisman, it's not meant to be a prediction of future players.  It's an award for current ones.  I think that Eric Crouch is a great example.  He was a great system QB in college, a great athlete, but ultimately, not cut out for the NFL.  The NFL will probably be the same way to a guy like Tebow.

At least Tebow has a chance to play a different position. I could see him at fullback.

Anyway, Ingram will probably win, but I'll be pulling for Gerhart.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Dave Gray on December 11, 2009, 01:23:57 pm
At least Tebow has a chance to play a different position. I could see him at fullback.

People say that -- me included (though I think TE is the most likely choice).   But, does that really happen?  Eric Crouch was supposed to come in and play safety.  It just doesn't seem to happen.  If you were looking for a FB or a TE, why wouldn't you just draft one, instead of trying to convert one?


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: YoFuggedaboutit on December 11, 2009, 02:08:24 pm
Also, the college talent pool is so much larger than in the NFL.  A huge number of those players aren't going to make it in the NFL, period.

As for the Heisman, it's not meant to be a prediction of future players.  It's an award for current ones.  I think that Eric Crouch is a great example.  He was a great system QB in college, a great athlete, but ultimately, not cut out for the NFL.  The NFL will probably be the same way to a guy like Tebow.

Same goes for Danny Wuerffel.  He won everything in college and didn't get drafted.  Although he was a great college player, we all knew he didn't have the height or the arm strength to make it as a QB.

Charlie Ward is in the same boat, although he might've had some success in the NFL.  We'll never know.  What we do know is that Ward was such a gifted athlete that he had a long career in pro BASKETBALL. 


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Philly Fin Fan on December 11, 2009, 02:08:44 pm
People say that -- me included (though I think TE is the most likely choice).   But, does that really happen?  Eric Crouch was supposed to come in and play safety.  It just doesn't seem to happen.  If you were looking for a FB or a TE, why wouldn't you just draft one, instead of trying to convert one?

Michael Robinson was a QB at Penn State , but played RB and now FB for the Niners. And the NFL is full of college QB's converted to WR's. Antwan Randel-El is the best example. (I think the Pats have 2 on their roster).


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Dave Gray on December 11, 2009, 03:22:51 pm
Michael Robinson was a QB at Penn State , but played RB and now FB for the Niners. And the NFL is full of college QB's converted to WR's. Antwan Randel-El is the best example. (I think the Pats have 2 on their roster).

Were these guys that made the transition away from QB AFTER college?  Just asking.

Any you can name some guys, but only 1 that I've ever heard of.  It's pretty unlikely and usually doesn't work out all that well.  I'm all for Tebow giving it a shot.  With the wildcat offense now prevalent in the NFL, I imagine it will open some doors for him to make a roster somewhere.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: CF DolFan on December 11, 2009, 03:48:26 pm
Matt Jones was drafted in the first round by the Jags and immediately converted him to wide receiver. I believe he was the QB for Arkansas. 


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Sunstroke on December 12, 2009, 12:04:29 pm



GIVE THE HEISMAN
TO NDAMUKONG SUH

(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/125345/suh.jpg)

...OR HE'LL HURT YOU!!




Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 12, 2009, 12:39:09 pm
How could you give the Heisman to Suh if Colt McCoy took his team down the field againstSuh's team for the winning field goal? He obviously couldn't do enough to trump McCoy, let alone the other guys in the Heisman field.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Sunstroke on December 12, 2009, 04:14:23 pm
How could you give the Heisman to Suh if Colt McCoy took his team down the field againstSuh's team for the winning field goal? He obviously couldn't do enough to trump McCoy, let alone the other guys in the Heisman field.

You apparently didn't watch the game, because:

A) Ndamukong Suh, as an individual, ate Texas' offense for lunch that game. Dominant is the only way to describe his performance there.
B) You've forgotten that the Heisman is an award for individual excellence, not a team accomplishment award. They have bowl games for that.



Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 12, 2009, 05:14:46 pm
You apparently didn't watch the game, because:

A) Ndamukong Suh, as an individual, ate Texas' offense for lunch that game. Dominant is the only way to describe his performance there.
B) You've forgotten that the Heisman is an award for individual excellence, not a team accomplishment award. They have bowl games for that.


12 sacks for a season does not even come close to what Toby Gerhart did this year as far as individual performance goes.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Denver_Bronco on December 12, 2009, 09:06:12 pm
My heart says Ingram, but my head says Gerhart.

I am sure Ingram will win it, but Gerhart was the most consistent player from beginning to end, the ENTIRE season.
Denverdamus...........


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: YoFuggedaboutit on December 12, 2009, 09:15:06 pm
Yep, both Denver and I look like geniuses now.  And congrats to Mark Ingram for making history in becoming Alabama's first Heisman winner.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: Sunstroke on December 13, 2009, 12:39:34 am
Yep, both Denver and I look like geniuses now. 

You look like people who picked the favorite...how much genius does that take?

Count me in the same group of non-geniuses.

I think the best player in college football right now is Ndamukong Suh...

I expect Ingram to win the Heisman though.



Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: StL FinFan on December 13, 2009, 01:02:20 am
DB is right.  It should be Gerhart but it will be Ingram.

Count me among the "geniuses" as well.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: stinkfish on December 13, 2009, 01:12:31 am
Stinkfish is disappointed. Gearhart is my Heisman winner.


Title: Re: Heisman time
Post by: bsmooth on December 13, 2009, 04:17:30 am
How could you give the Heisman to Suh if Colt McCoy took his team down the field againstSuh's team for the winning field goal? He obviously couldn't do enough to trump McCoy, let alone the other guys in the Heisman field.

If the Huskers kicker didnt put the kickoff out of bounds at the 40 Colt would have run out of time to get down field. Also they moved up on a holding penalty by a db, so it was not as if Mc Coy marched his team down.
Of the players up for the Heisman, Suh was the only player who did not have others helping him out. He was double and triple teamed in every game. Because of his dominate performances requiring so much attention for every teams O line, his fellow d lineman were able to achieve much better stats this year.
Suh was the most dominant defensive player this year, and arguabley the most dominant player period. The same cannot be said about Ingram or Gerhart, but this is just another example that the Heisman is not an award for the most outstanding player in colege football, but just an award for whomever has the best stats on a team contending for the championship.