The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/nfl-considering-computer-chip-in-ball-to-help-on-controversial-calls/1

Thoughts?

I'm all for it.  Wherever you can use technology within reason to solve a problem that doesn't stop the flow of the game, I say go for it.

^^^ For that exact reason... If you can make the spotting of the ball (or any judgment-based call) more accurate through use of new technology, and that technology does not affect the playing of the game itself or cause delays in play, then it's a no-brainer, imo.

I like the idea. 

I also think they should put fixed cameras aimed down the lines.  Not that it will catch every thing, but it increases the chance that if there is an instant replay there will be something worth replaying. 

They should use lasers to determine strike zones in baseball.

That is all.

I say no.

The spot it part of the game, and the old geezers do a pretty good job.  I don't think we need robots and stuff to officiate a game.  We gonna have instant replay after every play for the computer to tell us where the ball gets spotted?  What if the computer gets it wrong?  And they'd need a chip at each nose of the ball to be precise.

Its a game of inches, and that's what makes it exciting.  Leave it as it is.

Say use the technology but spot manually, unless someone tosses a red flag on the ground which can happen at absolutely most 6 times in a game. 

I voted No,While I think the NFL should use every piece of technology possible to do the right thing...I'm not sure how to truly employ it accurately,or correctly.....I prefer to start with like something Spider, or Hoodie mentioned first....

Is are there going to be big grey things along the sideline like a security device at the store to detect where the chip is?  Maybe if I had a better idea of exactly how it's going to work....Is this GPS? even those have a margin of error, and in a game of inches....It's no good...So until I have more info I vote no...

I think it's safe to say they wouldn't consider using the technology unless it was feasible and reliable.  There's probably some bugs to work out (there always is), but you won't find them till you start using it.  Do a preseason using it and see what the problems are.  If you like it, use it if not don't.  It's as simple as that.  And of course it should be like mentioned, only used when a precise spot is of utmost importance.  You wouldn't use it every single play.

I don't see why you wouldn't use it every play where you needed it, whether it was an important situation or not.  If the technology works as advertised, it would be an instant reading.  So, the ref could potentially have a wireless thing in his hand that says "33 and 1/8 yard line" and then he places the ball there immediately.  It shouldn't take any longer.

I heard the guy on SportsNation today say something pretty wise, I thought.  He said (paraphrasing) "You never hear about a situation where someone was against technology in sports and now we look back and say 'that guy was right'."

I just don't think it's necessary.  The spot of the ball really doesn't have to be that accurate most of the time the only time it's really necessary is for 1st down measurements, crossing the goal line etc.  99% of the time the zebras get it right or close enough without any aid so there's really no need for it.  They could use it every play, but I doubt they would.  It's the old kiss addage.  Keep it simple stupid.

I doubt a hand held wireless device would do any good. 

The question is rarely where is the ball right now?  ("Hey its in my hand the wr tossed it to me after he got tackled")  But where was it at a specific instant in the past.  That requires reviewing the tape.

Nor is midfield spots often the issue. 

I invision using this technology to answer one question and one question only:  "Did the ball break the plane of the goal line or not?" 

Someone had to have said that when the NFL got rid of Instant Replay (before they brought it back).

Not really.  When the appropriate official decides that the play is dead, he pushes a button.  The ball's current position is marked in memory.  The ball is flipped to him, and he uses the device to set the ball to that exact position.  No tape review required.

The only time you'd need to check the tape would be a situation like if there were a question as to whether a knee was down when the play was called dead (something that exists now anyway).

Then why do the chains exist?

This technology would remove the need for the chains.

Personally, I don't believe the technology is there to do what most of you are proposing. I'm skeptical of any application other than it being able to determine if the chip has crosses certain line barriers. I seriously doubt it has the ability to be used for every single spot. We are talking inches here. Is there any GPS in the world sensitive enough to differentiate between inches? I imagine this thing has to relate to other sensors.

FYI, I just looked up the company and their technology is very close to what I imagined. The only applications I see are them being placed at the goal line, or if you can make it portable and attached to the chains to tell if the crossed the first down marker. Exact positioning for any other circumstances are not part of the technology.

Have you heard of a Wii?  I hear it's a fairly popular device.

The technology certainly exists.  Is it expensive?  Maybe to citizens, but I doubt it's anything extreme compared to what the NFL already spends.

I know of the Wii. I don't have one though. Please explain what the Wii has to do with the positioning of a football. This firm has sensors that are placed under the ground and react to the microchip in the ball. How does that relate to Wii?

The proposed chip is an RFID (Radio Frequency ID) chip.

The Wiimote works using infrared and accelerometers.

So from a technological perspective, these have very little to do with each other.

Without having read anything about the RFID chip in question, the LOGICAL way to do this would be to string sensors across the field ever X yards and then "triangulate" (need only be two-point interpolation, since all we care about is forward progress). This could be done exceptionally accurately and completely instantaneous. In theory ;)

The problem comes when making sure the sensors in the ground match the chalk lines on the grass. That would need to be *very* accurate (or at least properly calibrated).

Thanks Fau. The technology they are proposing doesn't use RFID though. The things they place under the field create a magnetic charge. The sensor in the ball detects the magnetic field when it crosses it and send a signal to a computer which then activates a signal on a wristpiece worn by the official.

It is all a bit over my head, but this proposed technology only has applications for crossing the goal line that I can see still.

I like your idea of the RFID and triangulation, but that is over my head as well and your winking eye leaves me to wonder how much is still theory and how practical it is.

I think with any "we'll bury the sucker" scheme, you're facing some rather problematic issues. How far down are you going to bury it? Turf moves around quite a bit when 300lb players stampede all over the place, sliding, falling, cutting (okay, maybe not the 300lb guys, but still). And you would have to make sure the chalk line is exactly representative of the buried "line".

As for the technology proposed (in the rumors), the coverage I read was that it was an RFID chip. Reading more in-depth coverage that may or may not be the case, but only with regards to the chip the transmits the information from the ball to the the antennas/receivers.

http://www.cairos.com/unternehmen/gltsystem.php
http://www.gizmag.com/adidas-intelligent-football/8512/

The system described on their site is conceptually very simple. A bunch of unshielded cables are strung across the field and a current is sent through them. An obvious system would be to have every other cable have a significantly different current through it (although in theory, you could have every single cable with a unique current -- they imply that on their site, but there are disadvantages and football would seem to lend itself to the "alternating" version).

Anyway, the point is simply that a sensor inside the ball measures the magnetic field from the nearby unshielded wires. To get a forward progress spot, you would need to measure the magnetic field from at least two wires (if you only had one, you would only be able to determine the distance from that one cable, but since the football could be on either side or indeed an unknown distance up in the air, that's not good enough). Given the strength of 2 magnetic fields would enable a "plane" (i.e. forward progress), while 3 or more would enable an exact point to be determined (triangulation).

Although I am a physicist and not unfamiliar with measurements like this (in very different settings), I wouldn't even begin to hazard a guess as to the accuracy. It could be many inches or a fraction of an inch. My guess as to limiting factors would be how accurately you could string the cables (and match the chalk lines) and how "stable" they would be during play. I'm also a bit concerned about the timing issue -- you wouldn't want to wind up with an "average" position taken over a second (or even less), it really would have to be RIGHT F'N NOW (high temporal resolution)... I know that this is what the company sells itself on (tracking dynamic objects), so presumably they feel confident, they have a good solution.

Without seeing it, there's no way of knowing, but the theory clearly seems better suited for football than soccer. The ball would simply by "streaming" its position in real-time and the ref would simply need to press a button the moment the ball is down and he would get the exact position of the ball at that exact moment.