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It seems that a high number of people believe in astrology, despite the fact that it's:

1. Complete and total bullshit
2. Completely unscientific
3. Irrational
4. Illogical
5. Senseless
6. Meaningless
7. Completely made up and unreliable

Yet, people still believe (some people truly believe in it).

Discuss.

yea, pretty fucking stupid, but i guess it is no different than people believing in a god (which is also complete bs).  I had a gf in college who broke up with me because our signs weren't destined to be together according to her book, lol.

Two things:

1) I don't think (and maybe this is wishful thinking) that many people ACTUALLY believe in it.  I think that a lot of people play along kinda for fun.  It's like pro wrestling.  Sometimes, it's fun to just play along and get into it, without dissecting it.

2) For people who do believe in astrology, it's a classic case of people only recording the "hits" and not the "misses".  So, there are a few vague personality traits from each sign, and any one of us can find common ground with a few of them, so those are the ones that people latch onto.  On top of that, you won't remember if your horoscope predicts misfortune and you have a good day.  But if you crash your car that day, you'll remember the prediction. 

But it's also just a case of certain people's brains needing something more than what's in front of them to operate.  I have a good friend who's intelligent, but so flaky when it comes to any kind of pseudo-scientific garbage like this.  I don't think you find many people who believe in JUST astrology, but are rational and fact-seekers in other areas.  It's usually astrology + alternative medicine + acupuncture + psychic mediums, etc. 

How is this any different than any other religion?

In all fairness when it comes to religion all *ogy, *ism, *ity are all the same. and you could really title this thread:

Why do people believe in BLANK?

and joe could make the same exact list of items

so people can believe what they want and i can believe what i want and that's that

I like it for fun. I don't read horoscopes, and I would never base my decisions on what an astrologist told me. And, I would never pay for a reading or anything like that.

But, for some reason, the description of a Virgo describes my personality pretty well. That doesn't mean that EVERY Virgo is just like me or vice versa.  I once dated a girl who was 4 years younger than me, down to the day..we shared the same birthday. And, she was a total slob where I am a neat and organized person. She was shy, I am very outgoing. She was quiet, and I won't shut up. Total opposite of me.

I think this new zodiac proves the point that it is BS, and many people will pounce on it to sell new updated books.

Good point.

My psychology teacher in college told us this story once.

A teacher came into class one day and handed to each student a complete psychological profile that she had worked up the night before on each student.  She allowed each student a chance to read over their own personal profile and then started asking them some questions.  She asked a couple students how well she had profiled them and most of them said that she had nailed them almost perfectly.  A few had a couple of small niggles, but mostly the teacher was dead on.

After that she had the students exchange the profiles and they realized that all of the profiles were identical except for the name on them.

Basically this is what Astrology is.  It uses a lot of generalities to describe people that fit almost everyone.  Normally they are quite positive in nature which strokes a person's ego.  People will read into it whatever they believe to be true about themselves.

I'll let you know when I find out.  ;)

Most religions dictate a certain way of life, rules to obey etc. All handed down from one or more deities. The existence of those deities is hard, perhaps impossible, to prove. Religions will also often have an "afterlife" component. Again, hard to prove.

Astrology is complete bullshit. It purports to enable someone "trained" to predict all kinds of stuff about you based on the location of stars and planets. The fact that these stars and planets don't line up the same way over time haven't caused astrologers to change their predictions. Of course, it helps that their predictions are so completely general as to be meaningless.

Astrology is fraud. Pure and simple.

Astrology has all those as well.  Or should I say had all those as well.  Much of the religion as fallen out practice and all that remains is the card trick aspects.  But saying astrology is not a religion because it lacks some components would be like saying "Christianity is not a religion, it is just about bullshit stories of about an antic overweight toy maker and colored egg dispensing rabbit." 

It's just fun. 

I wouldn't go to a magic show and yell out "THERE'S A TRAP DOOR YOU ASSHOLE, YOU'RE A FRAUD!!  WHERE ARE THE MIRRORS??! BITCH!"  I also wouldn't be like "Wow, that guy must personally know Jesus.  I wish I had powers  :("

Astrology is the same thing.  "Oh our signs match up...cute!  Wow I really am like that! Weeeeeird."... as opposed to "Hey, I'm going to have to abort this baby because there's no way I can have it on this month."

Extreme I know, but hey that's my sign.   ;)

^^^

Well said.

The ability to control other people is the sweetest aphrodisiac for those who crave power, and religion (including early forms of astrology) has always been the ultimate mechanism for that control.

That's why they always try to convince you that their way is "the right path" and that they are trying to "save" you. I say all religion is made up bullshit. If it makes people feel better about being worm food one day, so be it. But don't try to pawn that shit off on me. Religion is just comfort food for the flock.

I don't try to pawn off my religion on others.  If you say you don't  believe there is a God, I will not try to change your mind.  At the same time respect my beliefs as I respect yours and don't try to convince me there is no God.

I hear this a lot, but I don't adhere to it.  I think that a lot of bad things is done in the name of God (from many religions).  If we all have a live and let live attitude towards it, I feel complacent in that wrongdoing.

^ Yes, a lot of people use religion to fuel their hate crimes, but there is also a lot of good done in the name of God.  There are two sides to every coin.  If I am not one of those hiding behind religion to spew my hate, I shouldn't be lumped in with those that are.

I agree with you 100%. I try my best to respect everyone and their beliefs. I think there is a big difference between a religious discussion and just plain recruiting for the church. I may debate the facts as I see them regarding to the lack of god, but I am not trying to convert you. I can't say for sure that atheists don't try to convert people, but I've never seen or met one. In atheism there is nothing to convert to anyhow, so it's a moot point. For the most part the majority of people you see trying to convert and recruit is the Christians in this country. Would you agree with that or not ?

I gotta say this if it wasn't for astrology, I'd have next to nothing to laugh at.

I agree to a point.  Some people are very obviously trying to recruit.  Those people annoy me also.  If I just met you, I don't want to discuss whether I have a personal relationship with Jesus.  Other people are just being polite when you sneeze and they say "Bless you".

Well to expand on your point a bit. Sometimes when someone tries to draft me into the "God Army". I ask them, why are Christians always trying to convert people to Christianity. The overwhelming answers that I have received are. That it is their job as a christian to save the nonbelievers or that the bible tells them to. I don't recall if the bible says anything either way since it's been so long since I've really paid any attention to the bible. So what does the bible actually say about that ?

I don't know every passage of the Bible, so I don't know, either.  I know that some branches of Christianity require their members to go out and "save" non-believers.  I happen to not agree with that.  Live how you want.  I will treat people like they treat me, and I don't care what they believe or don't believe.

Well if the world had the same attitude as you. An atheist and a christian could get married and not let the difference affect the relationship. But most people cannot or will not tolerate anything different than what they perceive as "Right or Wrong".

All I ask is that you judge me as the individual I am, and not on labels.

I wasn't talking about you StL. I was talking about religion as a whole. Don't take anything I say as personal, it's not anything like that.

No personal offense taken.

I've said it before, will say it again:  Do not underestimate the effect that organized religion has had in civilizing our world.  Most of our basic laws can be traced back to a religious base, be it the ten commandments or rabbinical law.  Religion has helped bring order from chaos.  You shouldn't fell complicit in any wrongdoing unless you are to also feel complicit in all the good that has been done as well.

You could equally well say that most of our basic laws stem from pure common sense; the need to coexist. That people with power introduced commandments, laws, codices or similar to encourage this behavior is not a surprise and would not seem to require the existence of religion.

There is some truth to this.  Organized religion definitely has its place, in terms of keeping people on the straight and narrow over the centuries.  However, I think that the 10 commandments come from man's inherent desire to be good, not the other way around.


I think that religion has outlived its usefulness in that respect and now does more harm to the world, than good.  There are many, many, many people who do good deeds in the name of God.  I think that these people would still do good things without God, however.  And there are people who do evil in the name of God, as well.  They would likely continue on this path, using other justifications.  But, as a society, it would be easier to spot and condemn these acts, because they wouldn't be hiding behind the veil of religion.

I have a movie that some of you may enjoy.  It's called "The man from Earth" (2007).  I just watched it over the weekend and found it very entertaining.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/

Here's a plot summary:

"An impromptu goodbye party for Professor John Oldman becomes a mysterious interrogation after the retiring scholar reveals to his colleagues he is an immortal who has walked the earth for 14,000 years."

Almost the whole movie is shot in a cabin where several scholars have a conversation about many different topics including religion and the bible.  It's thought provoking.

^ I saw that.

http://whatwouldjesusview.com/man-earth-2007.html

Thought provoking, like you said, but poor production values and dinner theater acting really hampered it.

Overall I was disappointed with the acting, however I thought the lead David Lee Smith, did a terrific job and since he has most of the dialogue, the other actors/actresses didn't really bother me much.

One other small note, I absolutely hated Ellen Crawford in this movie, but it was her character that I hated, not her acting.  She does an absolutely horrid job as a Christian.  They really should have done a better job with the conversation revolving around the bible.  She made Christians look like idiots.  Yes there are some of those, but these people are suppose to be Scholars and her basic argument was "NUH-UH!".  Please.

I think that you are right on the money. I don't think that a book or a religion has to tell me not to kill people. It's common sense that killing people is not the right thing to do. Most of this stuff is common sense actually. The thing that gets me about most Christians is that they already have a built in excuse when they go against the what the bible says. "Everyone sins" or "God will forgive me" is the usual type thing or attitude. But someone that doesn't even believe in sin or god just has to man up and admit that they were wrong.

Not all Christians necessarily think the Bible is the be all and end all of all things religious.  Many Catholics like myself never really studied the bible, most of what I learned, I learned from priests or nuns in sermons and class rooms.  Rarely did they ever read from the bible.  Most of what Catholics believe while rooted in the bible does not trace back directly to bible passages or scripture.  Like you said, most of it is common sense and if I were to put it into 1 general rule it would be do unto others as you would have done to you.  I don't think that's such a bad rule to live by.

That's why I said most and italicized, bolded, and underlined it, as I didn't want to offend or lump everyone into one group. There are Christians that I feel are really good people and I know quite a few. But from my experience, Christians live no better or cleaner a life than anyone else. Actually, to the contrary, they are more hypocritical and act like they are above other people. One example of many would be divorce. Here in the deep south most Christians say that they take what the says bible literally. But yet the divorce rate among Christians is equal to if not higher than non-Christians. Christianity teaches that divorce is either not allowed, or allowed under only very limited circumstances, such as marital infidelity. So why the disconnect ? The bible also teaches that if a Christian gets remarried that they are committing adultery as most divorces are not recognized by God.

The answer is that people can claim to be Christians, but in the end they pick and choose what rules they want to follow. Which in turn makes a mockery of christianity and  proves that they truly don't believe the religion that they choose to follow.

IMHO, most Christians are Christians because they have a problem accepting that death is the end of the show. I believe that they try to convert and recruit people into their own shaky belief system, because when it comes to religion, the more the merrier. Not to mention that the more sheep in the flock, the more wool the sheep can donate every Sunday !!!

I'm not a believer, but I have to comment on the post above. People are flawed so you can't condemn people who are Christians for not following everything in the Bible exactly. It is human nature to be flawed and as for picking and choosing, I believe the Bible has mention of stoning people doesn't it? I'm glad Christians have decided not to follow that one anymore.

Sorry, I understood you to be referring to Christians that have a built in excuse.  I was merely pointing out that a large number of Christians don't follow the bible verbatim so therefore they would indeed have a very good excuse for not following certain things in the bible.

And yes you're correct that a lot of people that call themselves Christians don't practice every single tenet of their religion, but even if they practice most of them, it's probably better than not having any tenets to follow at all.

Christianity is not a "one size fits all" glove.  Everyone has to come to terms with what they believe.  That doesn't make it a mockery, it just means that everyone tries their best to incorporate their beliefs into their life.

By the way, stating that "God will forgive me" is not a non-admission of wrong doing, it's merely indicating that God will forgive the trespass.  We still have to "man up".  It's called confession.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You are correct. I don't condemn people for being flawed, it is our nature. Everyone makes mistakes. But a deliberate conscience decision is much different than a mistake. Christians are in the unique situation to say the same thing you are saying by saying that Jesus paid for my mistakes already, hence "we're all sinners" or "God forgives me".  So if a christian keeps on doing the same thing over and over and over as a conscience decision, are they still forgiven ? The hypocrisy of people telling other people how to live their lives, while at the same time making conscience decisions that go against the very thing they are preaching.

According to what I have been taught, you are forgiven by God for anything.  The catch is that you have to be truly sorry and not just say the words.  I would assume someone who does the same thing over and over again is not truly sorry and therefore not forgiven.

Although, I am referring to most Christians in the deep south. Isn't The Bible the very basis of Christianity. I may be wrong but without the Bible there would be no basis for Christianity as we know it today.


But shouldn't they if they call themselves Christians ? The bible wants people to be "Christ Like". I think you and I know that is not really possible to be "Christ Like". But what percentage of Christians actually put forth a significant effort to be "Christ Like" ? Honestly ?

I don't believe in god, so therefore I don't practice any religious tenets. I consider myself to be just as good as a Christian. Why should anyone need a book to tell them what is right and what is wrong, since it's common sense ? Well OK, I will admit that my attitude and personality may not be as bubbly a Christian, but that's only because I'm a cynical asshole.


But if that person is not following the rules that they agreed to when they signed up to be a christian, what does that tell you about their intentions ? Are they doing it just because they are scared of burning in hell ? I know you can't do it 100% of the time, but I believe that in life you do what you agree to do. If you say your gonna do something, do it. At least try to do it, don't half ass it. Especially something as big as religion. In the Bible all sins are equal. So if your going to lie, you might as well cheat, steal, and kill. Either you follow the rules you agreed to or you don't. I don't see a gray area in going to heaven or hell.


Since there is no proof of the existence of God at this time. And it is not possible to prove that God doesn't exist. Opinions are all there is, there is no right or wrong. I think that all religions were made up by man to control the masses with fear mongering and financial burden.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong also..................

No, it's not.  That's what I have been trying to tell you.  Catholicism makes up a large part of the Christian faith and the bible is not the basis of Catholicism, it's merely one of it's references.  Faith in God himself is the basis of Catholicism. 

The definition of faith is believing in something without proof.  Some need proof before they will believe, others have faith.

So in your scenario. If a person got a divorce for irreconcilable differences. In the eyes of God they are still married to their ex spouse. Subsequently, they get remarried. Then in fact they are committing adultery every time they sleep with their new spouse. So since they commit the same sin over and over and are not truly sorry. They are not forgiven. If that's the case then a good percentage of Christians ain't gonna be forgiven. And then be BBQ for Satan, ha ha..........

It is possible to get a marriage anulled through the Church which would allow you to remarry in the Church.  Most people don't go through the effort.

However not every person is even married in the Church and therefore is not recognized in the eyes of the Church.

Theoretically all that a person would need to do would be to confess his "sins" before he died to still make it to the pearly gates.  This is why they will often summon a priest when you are dieing, so that you can go meet your maker with a clean slate.  Of course you would have to be truly remorseful at that time.

Although I was refering to Christianity as a whole, I do understand what you are saying. But faith can't set the rules for Christians to follow. The rules god laid down are in the bible. If they can't follow the rules in the book, they are not very faithful. Are they ?



My point was that since there is no proof of the positive existence and you can't prove a negative, that your opinion can't be wrong, just like mine can't.



If most (the vast majority) people don't go through the effort to do it the right way then they are in fact still married in the eyes of god.



Seems like your splitting hairs with me.

Eyes of the church or the eyes of God ? Are those the same 2 things ? Again, I'm talking about Christianity as a whole, not just one denomination. It doesn't really matter anyhow. If they are married in Las Vegas or Hawaii and God or the church doesn't recognize the marriage. They are committing fornication on a daily basis and not forgiven. Therefore upon death, spontaneous  combustion occurs as Lucifer walks in the room with his evil pet goat.


So your saying that a person can do whatever they want in life as long as they ask for forgiveness at the end. But a good percentage of people don't get that chance, not everyone knows when they will die. If a person knows the rules that the bible lays down and they break them over and over on a daily basis, all the while knowing that what they are doing is wrong, but waiting for the last day to ask for forgiveness.  Doesn't that seem like they were trying to get in as much selfish "against the rules" pleasure they could, before then saying as an afterthought "Oh sorry". Seems like an all knowing god would catch on to that scam from the get go. If a person claims to be a Christian, why not just do what God asks them to do and not try to skirt his laws and find loop holes. Does god go by the word of his law or the spirit of his law ?

You can get a marriage annulled through the church, for a price.  However, I know people who had perfectly good reasons that were denied, such as a man who's wife just took off and left him.  Five years later he tried to get an annulment because he had not heard from her and did not know where she was.  The church is run by humans and therefore fallible.  I'll probably go to Hell for saying that, if I believed in Hell.  <-  there's that picking and choosing you spoke of

I don't think you really know what is in the Bible or who wrote them.  God didn't write the Bible.  Man did.

Pretty much.  When you get married you determine whether you want the marriage presided over by a priest or not.  If not then the Catholic Church doesn't reconize the marriage.  If the Church doesn't recognize the marriage then it really doesn't have much to do with your faith.  You would be living in sin as far as the Church is concerned.

It's impossible to lump Christianity into 1 large group.  Every denomination has a different set of beliefs.

Only if they die before asking for forgiveness and being absolved. (Catholicism)

Yes as long as you are truly repenting your sins, but you can't do that if you are knowingly committing the sins in the first place.  God knows what's in your heart.

Which is why it's recommended that you confess your sins on a regular basis.  In the end only the sins which you haven't confessed and been absolved of will matter (Catholicism).

Now you got it.  God knows whats in your heart.  If you aren't sorry for your sins you will not be absolved from them.  But if you truly are sorry, even on that last day, it's not too late to make peace with God.

No I was asking you a question actually. You said that if someone kept on doing something over and over that they weren't truly sorry and therefore wouldn't be forgiven. In my scenario above, would that person be forgiven ? I'm just referring to the standard no fault divorce that is so popular today in the majority of divorces. Obviously, God can't approve of that sort of thing. The Bible gives 2 clear grounds for divorce - sexual immorality "Matthew 5:32; 19:9" and abandonment by an unbeliever "1 Corinthians 7:15". Even in these 2 instances, divorce is not required and not even encouraged. Sexual immorality and abandonment are grounds, i.e. an allowance to get a divorce . Divorce should only be viewed as a last resort according to the bible.   

Actually, I went to a christian school for 8 years. Had Bible class every day of those 8 years. And also was dragged to just about every denomination church for 5-6 years. Not to mention, the research that I have done in order to come up with the belief system that makes sense to me. So while I am no expert on the topic, I think that I know enough.

So what exactly are you saying about the bible ? Either there are rules/laws/sins/commandments in the bible for Christians to follow or there are not. Which one is it ? Please correct my inaccurate account of it, by all means. Your opinion can't be wrong on this topic, no one's can.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I have no reason to, I have nothing to convert you to. I am simply having a discussion on an internet forum. Trying to understand things that I don't understand and understand other peoples point of view, even though I probably won't agree with it. Nothing wrong with that is there ?

I edited my above response.  See if that clears it up some.  I think the biggest problem we are having seeing eye to eye on this is that you are trying to lump all Christians into certain beliefs and those beliefs are based on the Bible.  The only thing that Christians have in common is a belief in Christ.  The Bible is merely a document that was written by the apostles that attempts to explain some of Christ's teachings.  It was not written by Christ and therefore not written by God.  It was written by man and is not intended to be the sole source for all of Christ's teachings. (Catholicism)  It's not a "rule book" of life written by God, it's an explanation of Christ's life, death and teachings as interpreted by the apostles.

The only "rule book" we have straight from God is the ten commandments.

^ nicely put

You are absolutely correct.  Even the Pope isn't beyond making mistakes.  The Church does go back over it's teachings from time to time and changes things.  Even they realize it's not beyond improving.

I do understand you point. But even though the bible was written by man. Wasn't Jesus quoted to a good extent ? Although, you say that the only "rule book" we have is the ten commandments, don't quotes straight from Jesus count ? As in my example above. Would you agree that the bible implies that "god hates divorce" and that there are only 2-3 valid reasons for divorce according to the bibles teachings ? So if someone has any other excuse for getting a divorce, god doesn't recognize it. In turn if said person remarries or has sex with anyone else, they in fact are committing adultery, which is one of the ten commandments.


That was my point in my example, but no one ever just came out and said it. A christian should know that divorce isn't allowed just because they are not happy in their marriage, and that remarrying is considered adultery. Hence, what you said, you can't truly repent if you are knowingly committing the sins in the first place.  God knows what's in your heart.

I don't know if I want to get into this just for arguments sake but here goes.

Divorce is a sin. So is judging, coveting, living in a house that has mold, not washing your hands before you eat and so on. Sin is disobeying God which ultimately is seprartion form God.  If you are a Christian, meaning if you have accepted Christ as your savior, then all of your sins have been forgiven. Both the sins of your past as well as the sins of your future. Jesus paid it all which means all to Him I owe. There is nothing anyone of us can do to erase that or even help Him. So if you are a Christian and divorce for whatever reason, even knowing God hates divorce, then you are forgiven just as you are for lusting after your best friend's wife.

The thing is, and this is what gets under people's skin, most people who call themselves Christians are probably not but it isn't for me to say. The apostle Paul said we will know them by their fruit.  Apostle James said we will know them not by what they say but by what they do ... meaning their actions will reflect what they believe more than what they say (this is important for so many many things). Christians obey God or try their best because God's rules are intended to give us the best life possible. They aren't a list of do's and dont's to control us but a list of things that will help us maximize our life in this fallen world. No sin will keep us out of Heaven if we are truley saved or else that would mean Jesus' scarifice wasn't good enough. (This is the single biggest division between Catholic and Protestant)

See it is very easy to say you are a Christian. It takes about 2 seconds. Who wouldn't want a free ride into eternity just by saying a few words? Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than taking your car to a repair shop makes you a mechanic so that doesn't save you either. Being good doesn't save you since Jesus said thinking about a sin makes you a sinner. He was pointing out that our idea of sin and God's is much, much, different and that we in no way, could ever achieve it.

So calling yourself Christain, going to church but living as if there is no god, and doing good deeds won't save then you what will?  To actually be a Christian means you have accepted God's free gift. You cannot actually accept something until you use it. Just like money, it does you no good unless you use it. If I give it to you and it sits on my desk then not only does it go to waste, I'll probably get upset that you didn't use it. This means if Jesus is not affecting how you act, what you say, what you view, what you do with your blessings and so on, then you should question who you are following, yourself or Jesus?  In Matthew 7:21 Jesus specifically said “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  A quick way to look at what you actually worship will be to look at your bank register. Luke 12:24 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also

The bottom line is people are fallible and broken. If they really feel they cannot make their marriage work and get a divorce they certainly are not doing what God would want. There is no questin about that. Since Jesus said a sin is not actually doing it but just thinking about it then I can bet Christians are guilty of pretty much every sin out there. This means there will probably be many sins we don't confess because we don't even realize we do them. It is for this very reason that I am glad that Jesus paid the way because there is no way in the world I will ever be good enough no matter how much I try. The important part is that we do try.

The ultimate question really comes down to one thing in the Bible.  Do people accept God and follow Him (requires action) or do they turn their back on Him and do their own thing? This is being your own god and that is the one sin that eternally separates people from Him. 


I also would like to point out the one difference between Christianity and any other religion. In any other religion people are responsible for being good enough to move on to Heaven or to be reincarnated into something better. Christianity is the only religion that God himself took on that burden and not only became one of us, but sacrifced to give us a bridge to spend eternity with Him as was intended.  Sometimes people confuse Christianity as a place where we have to be perfect and it is absolutley not. To assume we will ever be good enough is actually an insult to what Jesus did for us and a clear understanding that they do not know Jesus. 

God knows what's in a person's heart, you don't. 

I'm actually divorced.  My 1st wife left me because she wasn't happy.  We were only married a couple years.  I wanted to stay married because I still loved her, but she wouldn't no matter what I said, so I reluctantly agreed to a divorce.  So should I feel like I cannot be with another person because my wife decided that she no longer wanted to be with me?  I don't believe that.  I don't believe that God believes that. 

We were married in a Catholic church and I did not get an anullment.  I got remarried and since we could not be married in a Catholic church, we just went to the justice of the peace to be married.  We have 4 wonderful children from the marriage and it's lasted almost 25 years now.  Do you really think God would look at my 2nd marriage with disdain just because I had been married to someone for a few years that no longer wanted to be with me?  I don't.  My 2nd marriage has actually been a much better marriage than the 1st, but since the 1st was recognized by the church and the 2nd wasn't, according to the Catholic religion, I'm living in sin.  I don't believe that despite what the church believes.  I know what's in my heart and my heart tells me that what I'm doing is not adultery.  My 1st wife has remarried as well and has 4 children from that marriage and she is happy as well.  If both of us are happier and have fuller marriages with our 2nd spouses, why should either of us continue to recognize the 1st marriage that clearly did not work.  I believe that God will see what's in my heart and in my ex-wife's heart and see that what we are doing is not adultery.  I don't really care what anyone else thinks.

In fact if I WERE to have sex with my 1st wife now, I would consider that adultery.  I believe that God would too.

^

I think the point is that you're picking and choosing the parts of Catholicism's Dogma.  Do I think that you shouldn't be able to marry again?  Of course not.  I think you should do what makes you happy. 

But I don't think the Catholic church thinks that you should.  Be their law, I believe that you are sinning against God.  It seems like hogwash to me (and to you as well, apparently).  So that's where the ball unravels.  Once you realize that some of the religion is hogwash, why stop there?


I have to ask you this, Pappy, with respect.  You seem like a smart guy.  You seem reasonable.  Do you really, in your honest heart, believe in the divine birth story?  That's the common tie between all Christians, is that story.  I cannot, for the life of me, believe that.  I never could.  Not as a child and not now.  As I age, I find it harder and harder to understand how normal, rational people can buy into a story that's so completely out there, and that goes against everything that we know to be true about the world around us.  ...not to mention the unreliability of the source (a book from thousands of years ago), handed down from so many generations that were known to be incorrect or intentional fabricators about so many, many other things.

I'm not here to judge what you do at all, what you do is actually none of my business. I am just stating what the religion of Christianity says about divorce. I could have picked one of many topics, but I picked divorce for a reason. It is one of the main things that the bible forbids, that people try to rationalize. The bible is very specific and clear on the subject. Like I said though, I don't believe in all this stuff. For that reason alone, you should not care what I think. But in fact what you are saying is that you don't care what the church and the bible say also.

I don't agree with divorce for a different reason. "I'm not happy" ??? Well boo fucking hoo. Marriage isn't about happiness, it's about commitment. It is not your spouses job to make you happy. Anyone that thinks that marriage is about being happy 24/7 is a couple short of a six pack. The way I see it is if you make a commitment, promise, or other wise say that you are going to do something in life, you do it. Common sense, no god, jesus, or divine book needed.  Although one forces anyone to get married, I do realize that there are a few legitimate reasons for divorce. But this "I'm not happy" and "We don't get along" is just an excuse that lazy and selfish people use so that they don't have to put forth the effort required to fix the underlying problems in the relationship.


Yes he would consider sex with your 1st wife adultery. But that doesn't change the fact that Christianity says that any sexual relations with anyone but your original wife is considered adultery or fornication, regardless of if you remarry or not. See what I mean about Christians picking and choosing when it is convenient for them or fits their purposes.

Hold on there.  Why?  According to the church, if I have sex with my first wife now, there's nothing wrong with that.  In their eyes we are still married.  I married her in a church and I never had the marriage anulled.  Why would that be adultery?  We are still married according to the church and according to you.  You can't have it both ways, either I'm married to my first wife still or I'm not.  Which is it?

Because there are many other parts of the religion that I do believe in.  I'm not willing to throw out the whole religion just because I have a hard time with one particular aspect of what the Church says.

I don't want this to be about me, but yes I do believe it.

Now let me ask you something.  Where in the ten commandments does it talk about divorce?  It doesn't.  Adultery is out, but what does adultery mean?  If we define adultery as a married person having sex with someone other than their spouse, which was not an uncommon definition back in the days when the bible was written, then am I commiting adultery?  No, I'm not having sex with anyone not considered my spouse.  Neither is my wife.  Neither is my ex wife.  The Church has decided that marriage is forever and can't be broken, but I think they are wrong.  I think it can be broken.  I'm not encouraging it and I don't think it should be broken on a whim or just because things get a little rough, but if one person no longer honors the marriage vows, then in effect the marriage is broken regardless of what the Church says.

Well I may be wrong, but from what I remember on the topic, when you get a divorce. Then god would have you stay single and celibate as the course of action. If you do get remarried, you are then bound to your new wife but that doesn't make your divorce any more valid. If I recall correctly, it was a catch 22 type thing. That's why god wants you to stay single if you get divorced. Thanks for pointing that out, I need to find a reference to that. This is the kind of stuff that convinces me think that this stuff just is made up superstitions.

How can I get remarried?  According to you I'm still married to my 1st wife.  There IS no divorce.  Once married, ALWAYS married.  That's what you are saying.  That's what the Church is saying.  It's not adultery to have sex with my wife.  If we are still married than it's not adultery.

So which is it?  Are we still married or not?  You choose, but you have to pick one or the other, you can't have it both ways.

You keep saying the church. The bible makes it clear that marriage is until death. And if you break that commitment and continue into another, you are breaking a commandment.

I don't want this to be about me, but yes I do believe it.



No, it's not the church that has decided marriage is forever. The bible says that marriage is until death. So what your saying is that the ten commandments are the only sins. I would assume that anything that goes against Christ teachings is a sin !!!

“Whosoever shall put away  his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry  another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery” Matthew 19:9

No, that's what the bible is saying. I'm just pointing that out to you and you don't like that part of it.


I don't want it either way. I don't believe in any of this stuff anyhow. The fact that a person gets divorced and remarried is adultery, is under god's law. Not only do you have to worry about god's law though, god instructs us to also follow mans law or the law of the land. Mans law says that you are married to your new wife not your old wife, so mans law says that you are commiting adultery if you sleep with your ex. Just because someone puts them self in a catch 22 situation doesn't make it less valid...........

It's been a while since I put on a suit of my own clothes
And even longer since I cast my shadow on a church house door
They say every sin is deadly but I believe they may be wrong
I'm guilty of all seven and I don't feel too bad at all



From Cottonseed by the Drive-By Truckers

Which one?  I don't remember seeing the thou shall not divorce commandment.

And the bible was written by men and is interpreted by the church in various ways for various religions.  Which one is correct? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that I don't subscribe to it because it doesn't make sense to me.  My wife and I both said vows when we were married and I intended to fulfill those vows, but my wife didn't.  She decided to stop honoring her vows.  In my mind she ended the marriage. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I'll let God judge me in the end.

Of course not.  I'm saying those are the only "rules" that were directly written by God's hand.

Agreed, but how do we know for certain what those teachings were?  We only have the bible and some other scripture that tell us what he said.  How do we know the bible is 100% correct?  How do we know it's being interpreted 100% correctly?

I'm not going to get into quoting the bible because I've already said that the bible is NOT the be all and end all to my beliefs.  The Bible isn't even 1 source, it's actually many sources.  Many different writings by many different people combined into 1 book.  There are several different versions of the Bible.  They were written thousands of years ago in another language and translated to English. Some things in parts of the bible don't match up exactly with other things in the bible, which are the "correct" passages?  Scholars and religious men far smarter than I have fought over just these questions for thousands of years.  Even today all Christians don't believe the same things. How can ANYONE claim to KNOW exactly what God intends for us.  We don't.  We have faith.  We have interpreted things the best we can and have tried to come up with the best possible answers and we have faith that they are correct, but there are no hard and fast answers, only opinions, much like these forums.

If it were as cut and dry as you are trying to make it, there would be no faith, we would simply know the truth and we wouldn't need faith at all.

Exactly.  You are attempting to create a catch 22 where one does not exist because you don't believe any of it.  I on the other hand am trying to make sense of it so that I can believe it.  Do I know I'm right?  No.  It's only my belief.

I am not attacking you or what you believe personally. I am simply showing you why I don't believe in this stuff. In my opinion, a perfect god wouldn't make such ambiguous and vague communications with us lower life forms. He or it would make it clear what he wants and then there wouldn't be everyone doing and believing different things. As far as divorce and adultery, I could care less, unless it has to do with me personally. Anyhow, I think we killed this topic, unless anyone else chimes in. I think we know where each other stands.  You get the pearly gates and I get to burn the flames, bwahahahaha.

You're right.  It doesn't.

But the ten commandments -- they come from the bible, don't they?  I mean, the reason that we hold those words as important, because the bible tells us those words.  It's not like we actually have the stone tablets.  The whole story of Moses and the tablets, isn't that from the bible?  (I actually am not sure, I'm not a bible expert.)

As for the divorce thing, I didn't bring that up -- I don't care about it, specifically.  I'm just illustrating the point that the bible says many things, yet Christians (unless they are total fundamentalists) are forced to reject some things that the bible says.  At that point, once you realize that the book is fallible, how can one hold on to the rest of the book as the ultimate truth?

That's the whole faith thing, Dave.  It's between you and God.

Yea, I brought up the divorce thing Dave. I think it is one of the best topics to prove that most Christians will rationalize and defend things in their own interests, that the bible specifically prohibits. Most people, whether Christian or not, will blame the other spouse. People will pick and choose according to what suits them at any given moment. We all do it, Christians just have the unfortunate task of having to defend a belief system that their choices and actions go against. But in the end that is their choice !!!

Correct, it comes from the Bible, but it's pretty consistent across multiple sources what the tablets said.  It's not quite like the Bible where there are multiple versions of it and multiple sources attributed to different commandments.  Pretty much it's unanimous that the Ten commandments came from God and that those 10 are the 10 that were on the tablets.  There are lots of different variations on the Bible and there are lots of opinions on who wrote various parts of the Bible.  There's so much in the Bible that it's pretty hard to verify the accuracy of most of it's contents.  With just 10 commandments, it's much easier to verify the accuracy.  We don't actually have the tablets, but if you believe there were tablets at one time, I think it would have been pretty easy to determine what was on them wouldn't you think?

It's not so much rejecting what it says as much as it is differing on interpreting what was meant.  You are talking about 2 thousand years.  You are talking about a different language, in a different time, with different customs, different beliefs and a different culture.  Heck we have a hard time making sense of what Shakespeare meant at times and that's only a few hundred years old, do you really think that we could bring scripture forward 2000 years and know with 100% certainty what it says when we don't even have the original text but merely what people wrote down hundreds of years later?  It's like trying to translate Shakespeare 4 or 5 times over and expecting it to be 100% accurate.  That's a bit unrealistic.

So just because we're not certain that it's 100% accurate, we can reject all of it?  You can, but that's not any more logical than believing everything it says as 100% the truth.

Or in other words it's one of the best ways to rationalize not having faith.

That would defeat the purpose.  God wants you to choose what to believe.  If he simply made everything known to everyone, then you really don't have a choice do you?  This way you have to choose what you want to believe.  It's tougher to believe when there is no evidence, but then that's the beauty of it too.  Believing with your heart and having faith rather than being told what's truth and being forced to accept it.

You use the word accurate, but I don't really feel that's appropriate in my case.  I'm sure that the bible probably has some personal accounts of actual historical truths, but I don't feel that any of it is divine. 

As for the 10 commandments, I'm on board with many of them as good things, but I don't believe that there were ever stone tablets handed down from God. 

I was raised Catholic and went to church regularly and when I was very inquisitive, my Mom would always tell me that the stories weren't literal, but were instead just meant as parables from which to draw lessons.  That bought her a few years.  But at some point, you had to actually believe that God talked to Moses on a mountaintop.  I couldn't believe that.

I'm pretty certain that most faiths at the very least encourage marriage for life, if they don't outright demand it.  This isn't just a Christian phenomenon. 

I find it odd that the average hypocrite (And I don't necessarilly mean YOU, Badger, but in the end, aren't we all?) believes that religious people, through belief and conviction, should or will somehow rise above the human condition; whereas he/she, unburdened by such ties to faith, is free to ride the morally anbiguous ride of life without fear of reproach or the self satisfied sneers of "non-believers" who seem only so happy to shout "see, believer?  You're a heathen, just like ME!" at every misstep.  Must be nice.  Though I am not overly religious, I am a "Christian" by definition, and have no problem admitting to my failings and shortcomings; to the hypocrisy in my life.  I view the commandments and the few parables I remember as guideposts for a life well lived.  If I fail to live by any one or several of these guides, it will simply be a case of me not following instructions, so to speak, and no one else's fault but my own.

In short, Jesus died for all sins. The sins already committed and the ones yet to be committed. If you are a Christian (this is the biggest question) then your sins are already paid for. You can't unpay what Jesus did. 

Dr. Steve Brown is a very well respected Christian leader whose ministry is centered on this very thing. We are saved by "God's grace" and not by our own acts. This means since we did nothing to gain it we can do nothing to loose it. The question is whether or not you were ever saved in the first place.

He actually tells people to go out and sin and that God will love you anyway. This freedom in Christ is exactly what the Bible speaks of. It also shows that those of us who are saved follow God out of love and not out of fear and rules. While it is healthy to respect God no one, including Him, wants you to obey out of fear.  I mean, it is out of love that he even gives us the guidelines.

Everything God did and does is out of love for us but people want to leave that part out. His love is the main story line of the bible.   Part of the reason so many people feel vindicated in bashing God's existance is the fact he doesn't smite us when when sin. Once people realize that He does love us in spite of our downfalls is usually when they get saved ... and thus start listening to Him!!

^ So what happens to non-Christians when they die?

^^^ You're going to the BBQ party with me, the evil goat, and 65% of the worlds population. I'm bringing the Makers Mark. What are you bringing Dave ?

Non-Christians or Atheists?  There are plenty of Non-Christians that still believe in some kind of God and/or Heaven.

But to answer your question, I don't know what happens to them.  Maybe nothing.  Maybe we'll all end up the same place no matter what we think or do.  I'll tell you one thing though, I don't have faith because I'm afraid to go to hell.  I really don't.  And I don't have faith because I want to end up in heaven either.  I really don't.  I have faith because it makes me feel like I'm trying.  Trying to be a better person.  Trying to shoot for something better than just being along for the ride until my body gives out.  That's what drives me.  Sure, I hope that one day they'll be a payoff, but I'm not worried about it.  I'm just trying to be the best person I can be for myself and my family and having a belief system I think helps to keep my focus on what really matters.  What kind of person I am and what kind of person I can be.  Why not shoot for the best rather than settle for something less?

I was specifically asking CF, who was saying that Christians have their sins paid for.  What of non-Christians, CF?  What happens to them?

They are eternally separated from God as they have chosen. Either way is a choice that will not be forced upon a person.

God wants to be loved and if there is no choice then love cannot exist.
The bible is actually pretty simple. Submit to God and live with Him forever as was originally intended before the separation or choose to live by worshipping you own self. Love God or love yourself.

Is that a fancy way of saying "hell"?

CF totally just explained why I don't believe there is a Hell.  You either end up with God or you don't.  Maybe we all end up with God regardless.

Fancy? I wouldn't say that but it explains what happens more than just saying hell. God doesn't put you there. People put themselves there. When people think of hell they think of God having fun sending people there and that isn't the case at all. He grieves ever person who turns from Him.

To follow this up because I know I read it somewhere and don't feel like looking for it... The most important thing to get from the bible is not to love your neighbor but to love God. When Jesus was asked which commandment is most important He answered it pretty clearly.

Matthew 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


If you are loving God the way He intended you are doing the other.

How does this explain there is no hell? The bible says there is. If you don't belive that then why believe any of it? It is either what it says it is or it isn't.

I don't believe in the fire and brimstone punishment Hell.

CF, you just gave me a long, drawn out question with bible quotes to a simple yes/no question.  I'll be more direct.  Do you believe that all non-Christians go to hell?

I don't. None of this stuff exists as far as I am concerned. It's just like the pet cat, when we die, that's it. Like Bill Paxton said in Aliens, "Game Over Man".

!

I answered the question. The bible quotes were directed towards a different comment made in this thread. 

The question was Is that a fancy way of saying "hell"? If you want a simple yes and no I will say no. There is nothing fancy about it and I explained why.

If you want to know if I believe all non-Christians go to hell? The answer is yes.

On that note it seems that you are trying put me on trial with yes or no questions. The funny part is the question you wanted me to answer wasn't even the question you asked.   I was trying to be informative as to an actual Christian view. If you don't care and wish to believe all of the sterotypical rhetoric posted in this thread I certainly won't waste my time.

Bingo!  When I ready the first post, I thought the same thing to myself.  Substitute the word "religion" for "astrology" and the post still works.

The most significant philosophical difference between Judaism and Christianity is the perspective of forgiveness.  And why I laugh out loud when someone uses the phase "Judo/Christan values of forgiveness."

In Christianity if you commit a sin against another person you can seek forgiveness from god. 

In Judaism you must first seek forgiveness from the person you sinned against first.  God can still forgive you if you make an earnest effort to make amends and the other unreasonably withholds forgiveness, but you must seek it from the person you wronged first.  You can't go straight to god, unless the sin is against god.  (e.g. breaking sabbath, taking the lords name in vein, etc.)

This makes murder an unforgivable sin in Judaism but forgivable in Christianity.

An outstanding book on topic of forgiveness, its limits and comparison between religions and philosophies is the The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal.

^^^I laughed out loud at the thought of a "Judo/Christian". 

"Repent, for the end is nigh!  Hiiiiiyah!  Judo chop!"

I'm not putting you on trial.  I just want to clarify that that's your position.  I could never believe that.  There are so many people in the world -- children in the jungle, for example, that even if I believed in hell (which I don't) and God (which I don't), that I'd want no part of a God that built a world like that.

Though I was raised Catholic (and maybe they have the same dogma), I was never told that non-christians go to hell.  A friend's mom said that once and I was pretty horrified.  That was during my religious unraveling, though, and might've been the final nail in the coffin.

If I thought that so many people were going to hell, people I cared about, I'd like my life in a constant state of sorrow.  I'd be unable to live, knowing that there was going to be so much suffering for nearly all of the world.  How do you carry that burden?

That was always one of the sticking points for me as well. If I commit what I consider to be a "small" offense, like taking the Lord's name in vain (which I do every day), or not honoring my father and mother (what if I have asshole parents?) and don't ask the Lord for forgiveness for it before I die...I'm sentenced to Hell forever? No appeal process? No parole? Just thrown into the general brimstone population with the rapists and murderers? I mean, seriously...who in God's name (all puns intended) came up with the sentencing structure for the Afterlife Penal System?

The Bible is a book written by man, not God, for the purpose of controlling the behavior of the masses...
Hell is a concept created by man, not God, to enforce that control...

Until proof can be provided to the contrary, this is how I see it.

I should also point out that "faith," feeling" and "belief" do not count as "proof" in my book.

Well to expand upon that a bit. For me the bible is full of contradictions. God is a jealous god, but jealousy is a sin ? God only wants us to love and warship him. What kind of narcissistic sickness is that ? God loves you more than anything, but if you don't kiss his ass you will suffer forever. Not to mention that god knows everything that ever has happened and ever will happen. So god knows the future. He knows if I am going to heaven or hell already. So it is predetermined where I will go. What's the point in doing anything the bible says if god already knows the outcome and it is predetermined ?

And generate revenue of course !!!


For religious people, faith, feeling, and belief is the only proof that they have. I was telling a southern baptist preacher how I fell about religion and he got all hot and bothered and asked me if I could prove the there is no god. That conversation ended right there. The fundamental flaw there is that that person making the claim is the one that bears the burden of proof. He didn't understand that you cannot absolutely prove that something doesn't exist. Just like he couldn't prove that my giant invisible pink chicken god named earl doesn't exist............ 

The year I got out of the Army (23 years ago), I had a Southern Baptist Minister in Columbia, SC, ask me if I was the Antichrist...just for taking notes during his sermon and asking him questions about it afterward.

I've only been inside a Church once since that day...and that was to hear a contemporary Christian rock band (Jars of Clay) perform.


Our Father, who art in the Henhouse, Earl be thy name...

LMFAO, but no more unbelievable than an invisible old guy in the sky that grants miracles if you close your eyes and talk to yourself. Shit at least chickens really exist. Just add a little pink dye, growth hormones and steroids and whammo. BOW TO EARL McCHICKEN or you will be deep fried and eaten by Earl's coworkers.

No, at least not for Catholics.

Catholics believe that there is a 3rd "place" called purgatory which is a temporary place.  Now it's been awhile since I've really went over this, so I might be a little rusty on the details, but basically speaking Catholics believe that you only go to Hell in extreme circumstances.  Most everyone goes to Purgatory first where you have to "wait your turn" into Heaven while you are cleansed of your "minor" sins.  How long you are there depends upon how bad your offenses were, but eventually everyone that goes to Purgatory ends up in Heaven.

^^^
OK, so Hell is a concept created by mankind.
And Purgatory was a logical compromise created by mankind once it realized that the people that Hell was created to control were rejecting it due to Hell's "unforgiving" membership criteria.

It's not predetermined.  Yes, God knows what choice you will eventually make, but the choice was not predetermined for you, you will make the choice.  God only already knows what choice you will make, he didn't make the choice for you.  You are attempting to write yourself out of the equation and therefore remove your responsibility.  That's absolutely not the case.  You can change your destiny at any point, the fact that God already knows what you will do in the end, does not alter that.

That's poorly worded.  Faith is the ability to believe without proof.

I find this very hard to believe.  That must have been about the worst southern baptist preacher I've ever heard of.  Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with proof so unless he was trying to make a point about what Faith is, there would be absolutely no reason for him to ever ask someone to prove God does not exist.

So you're rejecting religion because Hell is too extreme and Purgatory isn't extreme enough?

By the way, you might be interested in this link.  Hell as described in the Bible may have very little in common with what most people associate with Hell.  In fact it may mean exactly what some of you have been suggesting is what happens to us all, which is merely a grave.  In other words those condemed to hell have no afterlife, they are put into the ground and that's the end of it.  Only those saved have an afterlife.  If that's true than what some of you are saying is actually in complete agreement with the Bible.  If you don't believe in God, you will end up in the ground, end of story.

What does the Bible teach us about Hell? (http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html)

If god knows 100% what is going to happen then there is no need for me to do anything. If god knows 100% that I am going to hell then there is nothing that I can do to change it. because if I do change it, god was wrong. How am I trying to remove any responsibility ? Responsibility from what ? None of this stuff is real, these are hypothetical discussions.



Faith is emotion based, not fact based. Faith is not involved when real facts or proof are present. Faith only rears its ugly head when someone has to substitute emotions when there is a lack of evidence, facts, or proof in their favor.


Yes pappy, they do this shit all the time to try to prove their point of view. Another popular one they use when someone questions gods existence is to ask. Does wind exist ? Then when you say yes, they ask. How do you know it exists. The obvious answer to that is, that I can feel it. So I feel wind, so therefore it exists. They feel god, so therefore he exists. Pure poppycock !!!!

God knows the future.  He knows what you will do BEFORE you do it, therefore the decision has NOT been made yet, therefore it has not been predetermined.  You are in control of your destiny.

You are trying to invalidate a belief system with flawed logic.

No I think that your logic is flawed. You said that god knows what I will do BEFORE I do it. So that means that he has established what I will do before i will do it. Hence the prefix PRE.

predetermined - past tense of pre·de·ter·mine (Verb)
1. Establish or decide in advance.
2. Predestine (an outcome or course of events).   

He has established what I will do BEFORE I do it, like you said.

I know what predetermined means, there's no point in giving me the definition.  You are misusing the term.  You are confusing knowing the future with determining the future.

How about an example.  Let say I have a time machine.  I go forward 100 years and find that the New England Patriots win the SuperBowl (again).  Now I go back to my previous time.  Have I DETERMINED history.  No, I have not DETERMINED anything, it was DETERMINED while I was in the time machine, but I did NOTHING.  I skipped 100 years of history and simply found out the results of what has happend.  People WILL change history over the next 100 years.  Everyone will.  I haven't changed that, I simply skipped over it all and went to the end and found out what they changed.  That's it.  I did NOTHING to determine it.  It WILL be determined by those people WHEN they do it.

In other words what he knows doesn't influence what you will do, what you will do influences what he knows.  You have the control.

I can't explain it any better than that.  Disagree if you must.

I'm rejecting religion for the same reason I reject most myths...zero proof and an unbelievable premise. Hell and Purgatory qualify under both conditions.

Guess we have to agree to disagree. I don't understand what you are saying. On one hand you are saying that god already knows what is going to happen to me when I die. On the other hand you are saying that I have free will to make my choices. But if he already knows what is going to happen, my choices are irrelevant, the end outcome is the same. If god knows right this second that I am 100% going to hell, what the hell can I do about it ? And if I can do something about it and change my destiny, god was wrong in his "knowing" what would happen to me !!!

^ That is a classic paradox.  If you see the future and change what you do, did you really see the future?

I'll even take God out of the equation. 

Is there really free will, even without God involved?  Your "decisions" are caused by impulses, chemistry, outside factors, etc.  You have the illusion of free will because you gather all of the info, send it to your brain and make a choice.  But, if you were to play out that same moment a million times, since those factors will be the same, so will your choice.  Therefore, are you really even making a choice?  Or are you just a slave to your biology?

See you guys in hell, 666

ha ha haaaaa

I borrowed some of this because I think it is a very good condensed version.  I started to write all the versus concerning this but it would be pretty large. The truth is it would take a while to go through the Bible to point out these things. As I have said before, you can't understand the Bible unless you have read the whole thing but I can summerize

Will all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ be sent to hell? First we must note that the Bible says God will judge all people righteously.

1) there will be a different judgment for those who have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ than those who have never heard.
2) Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed sin under the law.
3) Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.
4) The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts

James even warns "teachers" of the faith that they will be judged more accordingly.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly (James 3:1)



We were created to fellowship with Him ... like it or not. We can never be content without God and try to fill that void in different ways. There is a part of all of us that isn't whole until we actually do this. The desire to always want more and feel like it isn't enough once we get it for example.  The constant search for pleasure is another.

Again I borrow the text from "God and Science" for the "jealousy" comments.

Jealousy is often thought of as being a negative trait. So, many people think that the Bible's description of God as jealous means that He must be a divine hypocrite. However, this page shows that in the original languages in which the Bible is written, the words do not have those negative definitions. Since the word used to describe the jealousy of God is not even the same word used to describe human jealousy, it is clear that the apparent contradiction is just a result of an inability of the translated language (English) to accurately reflect the original language (Hebrew). There is no slight on the character of God in the original language.


The doctrine that God is a jealous God comes from the Old Testament books of the law of Moses. The "jealousy" is always in the context of idol worship, beginning in the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20.

"

• You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:5)
  for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (Exodus 34:14)
  "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24)
  'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Deuteronomy 5:9)
  for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off, the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 6:15)

What these five verses have in common is that they all share the same Hebrew adjective, qannâ' translated with the English word "jealous." The interesting thing about this word is that it is only used in reference to God. In no instance is the word qannâ' used to describe human jealousy. The reason that God is "jealous" is because He wants people to choose to love Him. Jesus said that the most important commandment was to love God.7 God does not want us to waste out time worshipping pretend gods that do not exist.

Whereas God's "jealousy" is primarily restricted to a jealousy over the worship of idols that competes with His love to prevent a dedicated relationship with Him, jealousy between people takes on quite a number of forms. Two different Hebrew words are used to describe human jealousy. The Hebrew verb qânâ'  refers to a passionate jealousy or envy. The Hebrew noun qin'âh  takes on a wide range of meanings from sexual passion (or jealousy) to a zeal for God to anger or envy. The exact meaning (and the English translation is usually determined from the context

Forgot to respond to God knowing what you will do thing.

God knowing what you will decide has no bearing on Him deciding your fate. Its still your choice. The only difference is He knows what you will do and in fact, knew you before you were born.

If you decide to follow Christ at any time in your life, He already knew you were coming. If any Christian falls from grace it isn't a surprise to God as He already knew it was going to happen. In this we can never gain His approval or disappoint Him because he already knew it would happen. Its just that it was opur choice to do so.

I don't think you naturally would make the same choice a million times in your example. I mean on some very big and basic choices (most of us would never stab someone over a simple disagreement, some of us might) but on other more impulse things (making a choice to approach a girl, buying that candy bar at the checkout, etc.) I think the outside factors as well as impulse you mentioned become a variable which would cause you to make opposing choices over time.

Still not seeing anything that doesn't point to religion being a man-made mechanism for controlling the behavior of others...

Jealousy is definitely not a trait I would attribute to a God.
Man? Sure...but not an omnipotent entity.

If you read what I just posted you will see it's two different things. Unfortunately the English language does not have words that translates from Hebrew. They are clearly two different things in Hebrew.

Unfortunately that's different from what we are talking about.  In your example, your knowledge of the future influenced your choices.  In that case, yes knowing the future could result in changing the future.  But if you change what you do, did you see the future before or after you decided to change what you do?  If you saw the future that was after you decided to change, then yes you did see the future.  That's what God sees.  The future after everyone has made all their choices.

Because God isn't judging you on "right this second" ,he knows what you WILL do in the future and he's judging you on that.

What you can't wrap your head around is time.  You live in the now and only understand things based on what you currently know.  The future to you is unknown.  It's not the same for God.  He knows what the future holds, so he knows what you WILL do.  For you to say "if he knows right this second" explains why you don't understand.  He doesn't know "right this second" that's what YOU know, he knows what the future holds for you, YOU don't.  The choice has not been made by you yet, but when you make it either way, God will know what choice you made.

It's really very simple when you quit thinking in the "right this second" world and envision the future as something as easily to see as the past, the world that God lives in.

Here's the same timeline for you and God.

You:

Past      "RIGHT NOW"        "THE FUTURE"                 "YOU DIE"   
|------------|----------------|-------------------|

God:
 
Past            Past                     Past                            Past   
|------------|----------------|-------------------|



God doesn't know "Right now" on this timeline, only you do.  For him EVERYTHING is in the past, even things that have not happend yet for you and I.  You don't know what will happen in "THE FUTURE", but God does because for him it's in the past.  When you make a choice in "THE FUTURE" God will have witnessed this in the past even though it hasn't happend yet for you.  So God knows what will happen when "YOU DIE", but that doesn't mean it's already happened for you, it's hasn't happened yet for you and therefore it has not been decided yet by you, but God still knows it because for him its in the past.

I did read everything you posted...and the semantics you're now using as a disclaimer still don't take the "jealousy" to a place where it is reasonable to consider it as coming from an omnipotent entity.

God is in your head, my friend...and in mine. Until actual "proof" is presented, the "right vs wrong" in my head says that Heaven and Hell are fictitious places that only exist in archaic literature.

Are you saying that God knows if I am going to heaven or hell already ? Are you saying that God already knows all of my decisions ? Are you saying that God knows the future and what he knows it is 100% correct. 

Define already.  Who's timeline are you talking about yours or his because they aren't the same.  His already is not the same as your already.

Sorry, I am typing how I talk. Lets try a different way.

If I could ask god right now this second, and he could answer me. Are you saying that he could tell me where I was going when I die, what my decisions will be, and everything else about the future with 100% accuracy ?

Why do you keep asking questions about something you don't believe exists?

Do my questions bother you ?

Not in the least, I just wonder what your motivation is.

I think it's reasonable to try to understand more about people and beliefs in the world around you.  Sometimes it's to debate, but other times it's just to realize how other people think.

Curiosity is a good thing.  I was not asking the question as a challenge, I honestly wanted to know if you are curious as to beliefs of Christians or are you just mocking them.  You either have faith or you don't.  I think it's very difficult to change minds on that issue.

I get this.  I still think the debate is important.  Though I don't expect CF to become an atheist or me to find Jesus, I think that having a good understanding can help us express our positions better, as well as meet in the middle as to what is an appropriate way to interact.

Well it's kinda both. Trying to figure out how people are seeing it and also let my point of view be known, especially if something doesn't make sense or is in conflict with itself. Two conflicting point of views is basically a debate anyways. Definitely not trying to change anyone or their views. And definitely ain't mocking anyone.

Fair enough.

I'm not sure.  What you just described is something like a "calling".  Some people have basically said they believed that God talked to them and told them he had a plan for them and what it was and they followed it.  That kinda sounds like what you're talking about if in fact God told you that were going to heaven.  But the question remains then did God really tell them what the plan was or did those people just make a choice to follow God and the part about God talking to them was just their way of understanding the decision they made?  Perhaps the decision was so clear in their minds, that it was like someone was telling them what to do when if fact that wasn't the case at all.  And perhaps if you were told you were going to Hell and there was nothing you could do about it, it's not God talking to you then, but rather someone else?  And if you choose not to listen and make a choice to change your ways and end up in Heaven was that someone who was talking to you lieing?  Perhaps we make our choice when we decide who we choose to listen to?

Good questions.  Wish I had the answers for you, but I don't.

Yes ... and He knew it before you were ever born.

Jerimiah 1:5 says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart"

Prior to birth God knows who will not only be saved but all the mistakes they will make along the way.

That's NOT the question he asked.  He didn't ask whether God knew it, he asked if God could TELL him.  Those are 2 different questions.

Probably a better question would be if he did tell us, would we recognize it and understand it?

I used to work with an Arab Muslim and we discussd God all the time. He was very, very, devout even facing Mecca 5 times a day to pray. He gave me a Quaran in English to read which helped me understand him but it also confused me. Prior to that I had no idea that they held Jesus in very high regard. They do not deny any of His miracles but they also don't think Jesus, a great prophet of Allah, died. They think God placed another sacrifice on the cross and that's how Christians got confused in the ressurection.

Form the Quran ...
[61:6] And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

No CF got it right. My point was, that if god supposedly knows the future and knows what will happen. Is that 100% set in stone to happen ?

OK sorry.

If you have a relationship with God you will know when He is speaking to you. He speaks through the Holy Spirit, the Bible, the church, through prayer, through circumstances and even divine intervention. If you do not have one all you have to do is humble yourself and ask Him for one and He will do it.

I have taught this to my kids. If they have a genuine question they can pray about it and put it before God. In some way He will give them an answer and they will know it when he does. For each of us is different but God knows what each of us needs to be moved by Him so it isn't really a problem. It also isn't a formula so how He does it with me and someone else could be quite different. The end result is it will be a personal experience with God that each oif us can relate to. 

No you had it right. The second part was the question. The first part about asking god wasn't important.........

Well that's not what you asked.

Yes, in the future, but not in the present.  It remains to be seen what will happen in the future in the present.  That's kinda awkward wording, but it's accurate.

Yes it is !!!


^^^Hypothetical Statement


^^^Question



Ha, ha, ha, that make no sense. If god can see the future and he sees that I'm going to hell, then I'm going to hell in the future. Right ? That should be a simple yes or no question !!!!

You asked if he could tell you.

Yes, in the FUTURE!!! That doesn't mean that today you are going to hell.  That hasn't been decided yet.  It won't be decided until the future.  You can't make the future today no matter how hard you try.

But if god sees the future and what he sees is 100% set in stone, then in fact, we may not know the future, but the future is set. What god sees for the future is gonna happen regardless, good or bad. If that is the case we can't change it.

I tried.  I'm done.  Don't ever read up on Einstein's theory of relativity.  You won't understand it. ;)

I didn't mean to wear you out, ha ha. Einstein's theory of relativity ? Come on man you know science and god is like oil and water  ;D.

Dave, Sunstroke help me understand what Pappy is trying to say. Cause I can't wrap my head around it. Maybe I'm just stupid or something. Pappy is making me feel like Karl from Sling Blade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tqTWQiTlhKQ#t=53s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tqTWQiTlhKQ#t=53s)

I don't understand what he's trying to say.  If God can see the future, then a future exists.  If it already exists, how can you choose anything but what you will ultimately choose?

Yes, I agree. If what god knows as the future is 100% gonna happen. There is no need to try to do anything. Free will has nothing to do with it on his end or with the final outcome. Maybe if I go back and read up no Nikola Tesla's death ray, I will find the answer  ;). No I'm not mocking or making fun of anyone or anything, just trying to be funny. Why is politics and religion got to be so serious ?

Maybe sunstroke understands better than us dave and will chime in.

Here is another paradox.  The story of Adam and Eve getting thrown out of Eden. 

Never mind the paradox of does god knowing in advance destroy free will, this one is worse.  If in fact God is all knowing and all powerful, then he is also a sadistic bastard with an extremely twisted and sick sense of humor.   

If God is all knowing, than at the time of creation, he knew I would eventually make this post.  He also knew the Holocaust would occur, the Kamire Rouge, Sept 11, the sinking of the Titanic, etc.  And while you may dismiss that all on the concept of free will of man, you can’t dismiss his own actions. 

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden he knew they would eat from the tree of knowledge.  He knew it.  Even more so than my sister knows that if she gives my niece candy she will eat it. 

Here is what God did:  The equivalent of a mom handing her 3 year old toddler the child’s favorite candy bar and tell them they are prohibited from eating it.  And then when the child does eats it, severely punishing the child for eating the candy bar the mother knew would be eaten. 

But God gets worse.  At the time of creation he knew his people would eventually act up be acting as they were at the time of Noah.  That’s right at the time of creation God knew that the flood would be coming. And the flood was not some random act of free will by man like 9/11, it was the deliberate act of God.  And he knew he was gonna do it from day one.  Just like he knew he was gonna destroy Sodom and Gomorra. And knew he was gonna turn Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt. 

Only a very seriously sadistic parent would set up his children like that before they are even born.     

Well, you don't have to read too far into the Bible before you come across the little nugget about man being made in God's image... We are creatures of extreme duality, so why would we expect anything different from our model parent?

As far as the whole "free will" and "God knows everything in advance" topic goes, I'm not buying it for a second, and I put it to the test today. I specifically was going to order a particular Quiznos sub for dinner this evening, but then at the very last second, I blurted out the name of a completely different random sub off the menu. I am 99% certain that I juked God out of his sneakers with that one... ;)

but, god wanted a meatball with double cheese and sausage, woooo  hooooo

If God see alls and knows all that will happen, there is no free will.
If there is free will, then God is not omnipotent.

It is simple, but too many religious believers want their cake and to eat it too.


A great book on this concept is called God's Debris by Scott Adams the creator of Dilbert.

please explain dinosaurs too. 

Huh?

I studied Einstein's theory of relativity in college.  It don't recall any inconsistant paradoxs or contriditions in the theory.

Understanding Einstein's theory of relativity is not particularly hard if you have a solid understanding of Newtonian Physics and intergral calculus.  Not saying it is simple but no harder than most advance physics concepts.  The problem is that many people try to understand the theory without the proper prequistes which is like trying to learn calculus without understanding algerba.   

God created the first life, in whatever form it was.  Adam & Eve is a parable. 

or god is make believe.  dinsosaurs were here like 200 million years ago but the son of god was here 2000 years ago, lol.

If you don't believe, I can't make you believe, nor can you make me not believe.  Nobody ever said Jesus was around at the time the world was created or the time of the dinosaurs, so I fail to see your point on that one.

No offense but the apostle John said Jesus was here from day one.

John1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understooda it.

He goes on to say that Gods Word became flesh in Jesus.

I'm on my iPhone with not much time but in Job two dinosaurs are mentioned as well bohemaths that ate the tops of trees. This was written thousands of years prior to archeology.

Also, the Bible is the history of mans relationship with God and not the history of the world.

That could have been one of the many giraffe's that Rome imported from Africa. The would seem to be behemoths that ate the tops of trees, especially in Italy.

Also according to the Bible the Earth is 6000 years old which is how it is preached by some sects of Christianity.

There aren't any, it only requires that you realize that two observers can see the exact same thing from 2 different perspectives and have 2 completely different ideas about what is fact. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity

The theory of relativity also treats time as a 4th dimension which has some tie ins to what we are talking about.  Just as we can move about in our 3 dimensional universe, God can move about in the 4th dimension, time.  He can move forward in time and see the universe from a different frame of reference than we are capable of.  How he looks at things is relative to this, the 4th dimension, much like Einsteins theory of relativity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

That is what I was referring to.

I'm sorry, that was not my intent.  I was not suggesting you are too dim to understand it, only that your views on Religion prevent you from seeing that what I'm talking about has actually been understood by men like Einstein since the early 1900's and his theory on Relativity.  Yes it does require you to literally "think outside the box", but if you do, like Einstein often did, you see things in a completely different light.  There IS no definitive NOW, that's only something man has conjured up in his head to explain how the world around him works.  When you realize that time is merely another dimension, you realize how seemingly impossible things to understand (paradoxes) become understandable.  That's not to say I understand how it works which I really don't, only that I understand that it's possible for someone other than me (God) to see things differently because he has a unique perspective on us that we don't have, we can only imagine.

You keep talking about how you can't change things if God knows the future.  How can you change something that hasn't happened yet?  There is nothing to change because it hasn't happened yet, there is merely what you WILL do in the future. When you do it, it will be done and someone in the future (someone living after you die) will be able to see what you did, but NOTHING has changed.  We can't see what you WILL do in the present, but someone IN the future will see what you DID do, their past.  Do you think we can't see today what Einstein did?  Does the fact that we know what Einstein did today, make his actions pre-determined in HIS present.  No.  We merely are able to look back at what he did and take note of his actions because WE are in the future.  That is what God is able to do, because he doesn't exist in our now, he exists in his own now which is our future.