The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I think it was not a smart move on his part, but unless he was violating a dress code, he had the right to wear it, imo.  I doubt he would have sold any cars that day. 

I was just wondering what you all thought about this.  Who was in the wrong here?  I think it was a little bit of both.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/weird-news/article_cd7abe8b-60da-580c-a509-be58b2d13e31.html

The salesman is a fucking idiot.

Here is the article I read http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Chicago-man-wears-Packers-tie-to-work-is-prompt?urn=nfl-311976

Agreed.

Selling = creating a relationship.  How do you expect to create a relationship in an enviroment where people already don't trust you (car salesman) pulling a stunt like this.  The dealership did the right thing.  If the dealership lost one customer due to this, that was one too many.

I wear a Dolphins lanyard with my keys on it all the time. But I would never risk my job over it. I'd take it off if the boss told me to

Yeah, there's a difference between wearing the tie to show respect to your deceased grandma, and stubbornly refusing to take it off until they fire you.

What a maroon...

Probably not the smartest move, but anyone who makes a decision on buying a car based on the man's tie is a bigger dumbass.

I bet he makes out ok. Somewhere there is a rich Packer fan that will hook him up.

On top of it, since the dealership had done work for the Bears before, it might be sullying their brand.  Maybe that's a stretch.  I didn't read the article, but he should've been given the opportunity to take off the tie.

he was told to twice.

Stupid to fire him over it, should've just sent him home without pay.  Stupider (if that's a word) not to take it off when asked to by the boss.  The guy was probably hurting his own commissions by wearing the tie in the first place.  Unless the guy was gonna wear the tie regularly, I think they both made a mountain out of a molehill.

Sending home people without pay doesn't get you to sell cars, though.  You need your employees to do what you say or else your business suffers.  If he was asked to remove his tie (and both parties knew that it was a serious request) and he refused, you got to cut him loose.  It's insubordination.

I agree with most that this guy was a moron. He should have removed it after being asked. You want to take it in to rib your buddies fine but it should not cause a distraction or hurt business. Wear it into the office for a little while to harass your friends then have a back-up tie you could change into and this is a non story!!!!

So the guy is incompetant.

I agree it is insuborordination, that's why I said to send him home.  That way both sides have some time to cool off; I don't think it's a fireable offense unless the action is repeated by the employee.  The guy was obviously a decent salesman, in that he sold 14 cars the prior month, but made a bad decision in the moment not to take the tie off immediately.  I think most people can think back in their job histories and think of stupid things they did, but weren't fired for it.  If he came back the next day wearing the tie then I would agree with firing him.

I read he already has a job at another dealership.

Both dealerships will make out over the publicity from this.  Bear fans will flock to the dealership that fired him, fans of the little guy, 1st amendment and the few packers fans in the area will head to the new place. 

I complete agree with dealership that fired him to protect brand image (they have a marketing deal with the Bears) as a business and the standards set for employees.

I however, remain in firm support of the New Orleans student who was sent home from school for wearing a Colts jersey on a day everyone else was wearing Saints clothes the friday before last years SB.  That was a blantant abuse of power on behalf of the school. 

Yea, I agree 100%


I don't think that a salesman wearing a tie of a different team hurts any brand image or marketing deal with the bears. Actually, if the tie wasn't obscene or for a competing brand automoblie, then there should be no problem, unless of course there was some kind of prior dealership dress code policy against it. That would kinda be like the salesman driving a different brand car than he was selling. I bet the dealership won't say anything about that.

I sold cars for ten years, some of those sales managers and owners are arrogant pricks that try to micromanage everything. I bet it boils down to the sales manager being a sore loser Bears fan that couldn't handle admitting that his subordinates favorite team was a better team than his. This doesn't reflect on the salesman as much as it does on the dealership and management !!!

I have a sneaking suspicion that there was bad blood before this incident and it became the final straw.

You know as well as I do that this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the First Amendment.

He wasn't arrested for wearing a Packers tie, he was fired.

You know that.
I know that.
But 3/4 of America doesn't know that.

I don't see the problem with supporting your favorite team after a big playoff win.  People should be less sensitive about stuff like this.

Unless there's a big sign in the hiring office that says "Packers' fans need not apply," I don't see what wearing a tie has to do with his ability to sell cars.

Now if he came to work in a Aaron Rodgers jersey and a cheesehead with a foam finger, I'd say fire his ass.

This is a dumb story.

Let me put it in this perspective for you. 

YOU own a Chevy dealership in Miami. 

You spend the majority of your marketing dollars  to advertise at Sunlife stadium and to have Dolphin players appear in your TV ads, do promotions etc.  Three years ago you started a program in which every person who buys a car is entered into a drawing for season tickets.  Of customers who returned the survey 32% said the number one reason why they choose your dealership over other Miami  Chevy dealerships was the drawing for season tickets and the Henne autographed football that comes free with each new car purchase.  Which beat out every other factor including price, service department reputation, better price, better selection, location etc.   

On several occasions customers have told you that your best price was about $200 higher than your competition but they figure the autographed football, and the dolphin logo on the floor mats more than made up for it. 

(Keep in mind there is a material difference between a chevy pickup and a ford pickup, there is no real difference between the pickup on your lot and the one on another chevy dealers lot 9 miles away)

The day after the Dolphins lose to the Jets in AFCCG a salesperson shows up in a green Jets tie and refuses to take it off.  A perspective customer see the tie and exclaims, "what the fuck, I thought this was the official dealership of the Miami Dolphins not the fucking Jets" and walks out.  You tell the salesman a second time to remove the tie.  He doesn't.   

Still feel the Jets fan should remain employed at YOUR dealership?

(Granted I am making up shit here.  I don't know what specific programs this dealership runs by being the Bears official Chevy dealership, but they ain't spending the marketing dollars if it they didn't think it helped them sell cars)

I have a simpler question (that was a good post by Hoodie, though):  Would you wear something to work that you KNEW was going to piss off your boss and then refuse to change it?  I think there was already bad blood and this incident was the last straw.

I think this is more likely.

If this guy was the top-selling salesman in the company by far, and was liked by everyone, I find little-to-no reason why he should be fired.  If they were teetering anyway, this just pushed it over the edge.

I wear my Cubs stuff,all the time, there is a difference...I'm not selling.....I still think it's over blown.I agree with basing your car buying decision on the salesman, is moronic.Also it's a little bit of both parties fault....

I understand the Bears/Packers Rivalry...And the Car business, it's actually my dad's side of the family,family business.

Sales is generally about being likable and being able too get the customer to trust and like you and find the hot button that will make the customer want to buy from you.  What is the chance that a guy who would pulled this kind of stunt is the most likable guy in the dealership or is a master at push the right type of buttons to get people to want to buy from him?  

I know one girl who works in a sports bar in Albany that is a Patriots fan.  She owns 3 Patriots jerseys and 1 Giants jersey.  She wears the Giants jersey to work, cause there are more Giants fans in the bar and she said she gets better tips this way, plus the Jets fans would really cheap whenever she wore the Patriots jersey so now she wear the Giants one.  She knows how to push people's buttons to get them to do what she wants.  Or wait a second, I never actually saw her in the Patriots jersey's maybe she was lying and told me that because she knew I was a Patriots fan and figured I would give her a bigger tip, if I thought she was also a Patriots fan.  Even so she knows how sell and get people to like her.  And also how to wiggle her ass to get people to do what she want them to do.  

Be a different story if he had worn it on the Friday before the game and had the type of personality that allowed him to get into friendly banter with Bears fans customer's about the upcoming game. Entirely different story the day afterward.  He did that to purposefully to piss people off.  To troll so to speak.

He is like the Patriots/Jets/Bills trolls who only shows up here on the Sunday evening/Monday after their team beats the Dolphins, but never makes an appearance when the Dolphins win.  

I am tolerated because I although I do some trash taking and certainly defend my team, I don't go too overboard when the Patriots beat the Dolphins.  

And also I came here originally to troll and piss people off.  That was what he was doing.  But I wasn't trying to get anyone to buy anything from me.  And my worse downside was getting banned, which I figured was gonna happen.

He is a troll.  Take it from someone who use to be a troll.  I can spot my own kind.  

This isn't about a tie, it's about insubordination.

His boss made a reasonable request for that workplace, and he ignored it.  His boss made a second request and made it clear that he would be fired if he didn't comply, and he refused.  Not only was he insubordinate, but I question the reasoning of anyone who would choose a Packers tie over his job.  I would have fired him on the spot.

I heard this morning his former boss asked him to come back but he turned him down. Obviously he is going to profit from this somehow.

Both parties are just spinning this for the press, at this point.

Jim, I get it about insubordination.  But, I guess my problem is with the boss asking him to remove the tie in the first place.  It shouldn't matter and his dress shouldn't affect his ability to make money for the dealership.  If he wears a pink shirt and the manager doesn't like pink, is that grounds for dismissal?  Can he be asked to remove his shirt?

There's a Bru's Room across the street from my house.  For those of you who don't know this is a local sports bar chain owned by former Dolphin Bob Brudsinski.  Anyway, because its close by, I go there regularly, and I know some of the staff.  One of the servers, who is really nice to us, is a Jets fan and proudly wears her green and white on Sundays.  In a Dolphins' bar, owned by a Dolphins' alumni.  Why didn't she get fired?

Similarly, another server in the same bar who is a Dolphins' fan, wears a Giants jersey every Sunday because she knows there are a ton of Giants fans there every week and she can get bigger tips.  But her aqua and orange "MIAMI" bracelet and necklace are still proudly displayed.  She didn't get fired either.

I guess I don't see a reason to make the guy remove his tie to begin with, and its just sour grapes from an angry Bears' fan on a power trip, IMO.

The servers in the bar aren't fired because the boss doesn't care, and the boss gets to decide because it's their business and they sign the checks. 

The boss at the car dealership did care and made that clear.  Most businesses don't want employees wearing clothing that causes a disruption or distraction.  I guess the guy's boss felt the tie was a problem.  Perhaps it's petty, but it's not like he's asking the guy to do something unethical or unprofessional.   It's unfortunate that the salesman lost his job, but he made that choice.

On the bright side, he will look really sharp wearing that tie in the unemployment line. 

I am guessing you also don't agree with Tenshot that it is a disgrace to have a Patriots fan moderating a Dolphin's board. 

The reality is that there is more than an insignificant portion of the population that is less willing to buy a car from someone wearing a division rival's tie the day after a championship game loss.  You may not be in the population but those people certainly exist. 

I think a bar is different.  I doubt nearly as many folks would not visit a bar based on one of the many servers wearing the wrong jersey.   But I would not be the least bit surprised if the Jets waitress is hauling in less tips than her aqua and orange wearing coworkers. 

Just like not every Dolphin's board operates the same way, nor does every business.  Dave's willingness to have non-Dophin moderators doesn't make it wrong for another fan board to have a policy of only having fans that root for the team be mods.   

The difference is that the dealership had some kind of deal with the Bears.  That's not something you want to jeopardize.  When it comes time to renew that partnership, you don't want the Bears telling you "Sorry but the day after a Bears loss to the Packers I was in your dealership and saw a guy wearing a Packers tie, we've decided that it's not in our best interests to renew our deal with you.".  That's a LOT different from the manager just not liking pink.

I work for Southwest Airlines and we have no dress code, so I can pretty much wear anything I want, but if I showed up with an American Airlines tie, I bet I would be asked to remove it.  When you represent a company, it's pretty much a given that you don't advertise your competitor's products which is pretty much what this comes down to.

^^ that's different.  American Airlines is your direct competitor.  This guy didn't work for the Bears.  He didn't wear a "Joe Schmoe Toyota" tie either. 

My point is, what team you cheer for should have no bearing on what you can do as a person.

And, based on that, Hoodie, no, I don't agree with Tenshot on that particular point...

From my understanding, they had some type of deal with the Bears.  If you don't think the Bears and Packers are brand names, you are mistaken.  Having a deal in place with the Bears and wearing a Packers tie is essentially the same thing as advertising for a competitor.

Not a completely fair analogy on various levels.

You don't work with the public.  Everyone I have ever dealt with at your company not only as a dress code but a uniform.  

The Bears are not a competitor to the dealership like AA is to you.  He wasn't wearing a Ford tie.
  
Closer analogy would be Southwest Airlines has a co-marking deal with teleflora.  If one of the gate check in chicks gets sent some flowers on valentines day will their be an issue if it comes from 1-800-Flowers?  And 1-800-Flowers logo is being displayed at a southwest check in counter.  

Actually what I think what he did would be the equivalent of the guy in charge of inflight movies for southwest selecting for next month: Alive, Castaway, Final Destination and Raid on Entebbe.  Purposefully doing something to piss off the customers.  

That would be AWESOME!!

I'd be a loyal Southwest customer for life if someone did that on a SW flight I was on.

I GET  that they had a deal with the Bears.  I know that.  I don't care.  Working for a guy that has a deal with the Bears is not the same as working for the Bears.

I would bet that the dealership probably pays the Bears a big fee to be the "official car dealership of the Bears."  I don't think the Bears would care what tie one salesman wore.  I hope that the move was made because of sound business reasons, not because the manager is a Bears fan and was mad his team sucks and took the tie as "rubbing it in."

The fact that they offered him his job back makes me think it was the latter.

Not sure why this matters, I'm sure the dealership has a dress code as well for their sales people.  The point that I was trying to make is that even WITHOUT a dress code, there are certain do's and don'ts that are still expected of employees.

If the dealership has an agreement with the Bears for advertising their brand in some way, I don't see what the difference is.  The Bears ARE a competitor with the Packers and any agreement for advertising would surely be effected by that.

Probably not, although I don't think it's the same thing.  The flowers were sent to her, not chosen to be worn by her.  If she decided to wear something that was advertising teleflora, absolutely it would be an issue.

Absolutely.  Brand recognition is absolutely a huge issue for businesses and when you have a partnership with someone to advertise their products, you absolutely are obligated to not advertise competing products.  The Bears are a business.  The Packers are a competing business.

I think you're wrong, but it really doesn't matter what the Bears think, it matters what the dealership owner thinks.  If HE thinks the Bears will care, then he certainly cares and that DOES matter.

Actually it sounds to me that the dealership (perhaps after consulting with a representative of the Bears) decided that the negative publicity around the whole thing was worse then having the guy wear a Packers tie and decided to try to bring him back.  I bet if did come back, he would still have to agree not to wear a Packers tie.

I have a question:

If the manager sees that his employee has a tie that he considers to be gaudy, unprofessional and/or otherwise in bad taste, is he wrong to ask said employee to remove it?  Should the employee be able to refuse to comply with that request?

Seriously, this isn't an issue of angry/bitter Bears fans... we don't even know that the manager IS a Bears fan.  This has to do with a manager seeing an employee's tie, deciding that said tie would be bad for business (at any level), asking him to remove it, and firing the employee when he refuses.

If I work in the same Chicago dealership and I decide to wear a tie that has a picture of Obama and says "Show me the birth certificate!", should the manager be allowed to tell me to take it off?  If I'm at a dealership in Alabama and I wear a tie that says "There is no god... get over it", can I then insist on my freedom of religion?

Better stated, Spider -

What if you showed up to work wearing a tie that had a large naked woman on it?  Or perhaps swaztikas or pictures of KKK members.  I could see how that would be asked to be removed because they're OFFENSIVE.

What if he was wearing a tie of Oakland Raiders logos, or better yet, the Phoenix Coyotes or Minnesota Twins.  Would he have been asked to remove it?  How is this different?  What if he wore his GB Packers tie in July?  March?

The whole thing just sounds fishy, and I think you're over-simplifying it.

I don't think it's been pointed out that Illinois is a no fault state.  You can be fired for any reason as long as it does not fall into discrimination.

^^ That adds some clarity, but doesn't change my opinion much on this particular situation.   Florida is the same...

Legally, yes. But does that make it right ?

It makes it dumb for someone to wear something that would knowingly piss off their boss.  I've said before there was probably bad blood between them before this.  Maybe he did it on purpose so he could get fired and collect unemployment, rather than quitting and not be able to collect.

Packers fans could be considered a "minority" in Illinois.   ;D

(Actually I think every state is like that.  Any one can be fired for any reason unless that reason is some sort of protected class - pregnant, gender, sex orientation (in some states), race, etc.) 

I agree that he should have just taken off the tie and diffused the situation. But on the other hand, football is just a game, not life or death. If someone lets themselves get that pissed off over a game, they have some issues. What if they guy just wouldn't have shut up about Green Bay. Would he still have been fired ? I bet he would have.

I thought that you had to fired through no fault of your own to draw unemployment. Shit, if it's as easy as just pissing off the boss to get fired and you get unemployment. There is a problem somewhere. Hell, what's it up to now ? 99 Weeks or something ridiculous like that ?

Having been on unemployment, I can answer that.  Only if your former employer wants to make a case of it do you have to explain why you were terminated.  They have to prove you did not fulfill your duties as employee, such as written warnings, if they want you to be denied unemployment benefits.

Sorry, I reject your comparison.

Atheism and pornography are not equivalent.
Birtherism and Nazism are not equivalent.

Attempting to exercise a "right" to publicly display pornography would be an uphill battle for you; in contrast, there are already billboards and other public advertisements promoting atheism (and disparaging theism).

An employer that allowed an employee to openly wear Nazi symbolism would be subject to prosecution under the Civil Rights Act.  The same cannot be said for birtherism (or other political conspiracy theories).

If you're going to try to present counterexamples, you'll need to do better than that.  There is no grounds for finding atheism any more "offensive" than apparel from a rival sports team.

Brian, I don't really get what ultimate point you're trying to make.

You don't have a "right" to work somewhere.  If you are asked to do something by your boss that's within reason (not degrading, harmful, etc.) and you don't do it, you get canned.

If the boss thought that the tie was bad for business and the guy didn't take it off, he's insubordinate and has to go.  I don't think all of these comparisons to other things are needed. 

I'm questioning the motivation of the boss, that's all. 

People tend to be ultra sensitive about sportsmanship immediately following a big loss.  Especially in the NFC Championship game.  Especially to a bitter rival.  Especially at home.

I am simply stating, since two pages ago, that I HOPE the boss's motivation for asking for the guy to remove his tie is because he genuinely felt it was bad for business and would cost him a day's worth of car sales, and NOT because he is a Bears' season-ticket holder and die hard fan and didn't feel like looking at a tie with the logo of the team that just bounced his beloved Bears from the playoffs.

I agree that the dude is a moron for not simply removing the tie, but I also FIRMLY believe that its just a friggin' tie and has no REAL LIFE bearing on the business or the guy's ability to sell cars.

In the end it was poor taste and judgment by the guy, but I still question the boss's motivation.

No and No.  Most places of business have a dress code, whether it's written down or just understood.  And if they try to enforce the dress code (within reason) and the employee refuses to comply (within reason) then I think it's grounds for discipline.  Every job I've had at the professional level, I've known going into it what was expected from a dress code perspective and agreed to it.  Maybe not everyone does that, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a business to try to enforce one within reason.  We are talking about a tie here.  There's ABSOLUTLY NO GOOD REASON THAT YOU CAN'T TAKE OFF A TIE. NONE!!!!  Now if we are talking about a shirt, then you can't order them to remove it, but I think sending them home to change is within reason. And if they refuse then they are willfully failing to comply with the business wishes and I think it is fair to discipline them for it.

Does this place have a dress code that says "no Green Bay Packers clothing is allowed?"  If not, then he is not in violation.

However, he likely IS in violation to be on the sales floor without a tie.

Some dress codes are not expressly written down and are more verbal in nature.  And I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had a rule that said it couldn't have any "brand names" or "advertising".  You could easily infer that a Green Bay Packers tie was in violation of that rule.

And if you have to wear a tie, then ask the guy to go home and find another one and come back.

First of all, this post is really terrible. 

Second, how can you not understand that he wasn't fired for his tie, he was fired for ignoring his bosses orders twice.

I'm sure they have a dress code that states that the salesmen must wear professional attire.

The boss found his choice of attire unprofessional, given the circumstances (<--- this is important).

Open and shut.

Not for anything, but coming from the guy that reports posts daily, posts like this are really not productive.

This just came out today in our daily "news posts".  It's a snippet about what is expected of you as a Southwest Airlines employee if you ride non-revenue on a Southwest plane.  Remember this is what is expected outside of your job.  As a Southwest employee you are eligible to ride free if there's room on a flight.  You could be going on vacation with your family to the bahamas and this STILL applies to you.

"Southwest’s dress code is relaxed and casual; however, you must present a clean, well-groomed and tasteful appearance.  You may not wear tank tops, spaghetti straps or strapless tops or dresses unless a sweater or jacket is worn over them. Neither low-cut, skimpy, or revealing clothing, nor torn or ragged pants or shorts are allowed.  Obviously, you must always wear shoes, and sandals are acceptable; but beach-type flip flops are not allowed.  When in doubt, don’t.  Take a few extra minutes to remind yourself that as a non-revenue traveler, you are representing yourself, and our entire Company."