The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

This comes up every once in a while. Personally I think the right answer is different for different situations but in the end, I think the winning team could have handled this much better.


http://www.slamonline.com/online/news-rumors/other-news/2011/01/hs-game-final-score-108-3/

The Christian Heritage vs. West Ridge Academy girls high school game in Utah that took place last week has been circulating the airwaves after Christian Heritage’s 108-3 blowout win has sparked a controversial outcry by many who feel that they ran up the scoreboard on their opponents and demonstrated poor sportsmanship.

Christian Heritage scored 28 points in each of the first three quarters, while West Ridge finally got on the scoreboard in the fourth. It’s important to note that Christian Heritage didn’t use full-court press and couldn’t pull all its starters out since the team only had nine players.

The head coach from the winning team, Rob McGill, defended the decision of having his team play “straight up” the entire game with ABC 4 Salt Lake City.

“I have been on the other side of this equation,” said McGill. “It was very insulting when teams slowed the ball down and just passed it around. That’s why I’d rather have a team play me straight up, and that’s why I played them straight up. Because I didn’t want to taunt them, I didn’t want to embarrass them, I didn’t want them to think we could do whatever we want.”

As for the loosing side, West Ridge athletic director Jaime Keefer told ABC they did not feel offended. “They’ve apologized, and we’ve moved on,” said Keefer. “We know they’re good people and they should be proud of their team. There are no hard feelings at all.”

If anyone is to blame for this it is the regional athletic directors. 

Why were these two teams playing each other in the first place? 

One belongs in a division I and playing against other good teams the other belongs in division III where they can play other teams that also aren't very good. 

I would guess there aren't that many schools to divide it into 3 division in utah.

I am willing to bet there are  more than 3 divisions but they are divided up based on stupid criteria. 

Such as:
One division for large public schools
One division for medium sized public schools
One division for small sized public schools
One division for Catholic schools
Two divisions for Mormons schools divided up based on whether the school follows fundamentalist or liberal thinking with in the church of LDS.
One division for Regilious schools not in the above groups
One division for non-religious private schools.

A much better system would lump every one together regardless if private or public, big or small.  Then break them up based on ability. 

Lets say dividing in four gets you good size divisions.  So now you have 4 divisions each with 12 schools. 

The 1st place and 2nd place team in division II the following year plays in division I.  The 11th and 12th place teams in division I play in division II the following year.  Same process for the division II-III and III-IV. 

 

Florida schools are divided by size, so you can have a really good small school playing a not so really good small school and they're still in the same division (1A, 1B, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

Utah has a population density of 27.2people/sq.mile, ranked 41st in the us. They likely don't have enough high schools to divide into divisions.

that would be incorrect. They have 137 schools classified into 5 divisions

http://www.uhsaa.org/new/

that link, then about UHSAA and then Regions & Classifications. It's a PDF

137 schools isn't a lot.  where i live, in my state the schools are in 4 divisions, but my section has all the schools play each other, regardless of division. Thats because there are only like 10 schools in a 45 mile radius.

And both these schools where in the 1A division which means it is either the crap division or the top division and 5A is the other end.  One of these teams don't belong there.  Probably determined by the size of the school not the strength of the sports program.  The entire school is classified as 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A not sport by sport.  I think 1A is probably the small ones and 5A is the biggest cause 5A is listed first.

If Utah wants to get rid of these types of scores they need to do what I suggested move up the really good teams and move down the really bad ones on a sport by sport basis. So you might have a school with a 5A girls basketball team and a 1A football team.   

Hoodie ... I think the fact it is a Christian school or moreso, a private school, that it breaks the rules. We have several small private schools that put up excellent teams. Especially in a sport like soccer, volleyball, and cheerleading where it costs money to get trained. The size of the school realy has no bearing.

Our private schools are mostly in a league for private schools.  Since they can recruit and offer scholarships as well as having more money than public schools, it makes sense, because their teams are better.

Exactly....one small private school that gives scholarships to athletes gets stuck in the same division as a small private school whose attitude is "academics first, academics last, academics always the sports teams are just a diversion." And you get scores like 108 - 3, without the 108 really trying.   

My solution would solve all that within a couple of years. 

But the pregame line was West Ridge was +106 so if you took the points, you won! lol lol

The problem is that you'd have to do this practically every year.  Nobody is gonna do this.  It's a logistical nightmare even if you do it only every 5 years or so.

There should be a mercy rule in Basketball just like there is in Baseball.  If you're losing by 50 at halftime or by 75 at the end of the 3rd quarter, the game is over.  That doesn't really fix the problem, but it does prevent 108-3 final scores.

Not just practically every year.  But every year.  Top two teams in the division move up, bottom 2 move down.  Not really that hard.  My nephews soccer and little league baseball team does this and it never causes logistical nightmares because it is the designed as a unified process. 

Oh, it's easy enough to make it a rule, the problem is the logistics of what that means.  You're talking about having to adjust your sports schedule every year to accomodate new schools for every sport your school plays.  There's a lot more that goes into that than people realize.  Getting bus schedules set up.  Making sure you have drivers.  Making sure you have directions to the fields.  Making sure that parents can find the fields, etc.

It's not hard really, it's just a lot of work that has to be redone every year.  As it is now teams play a fairly consistent schedule from year to year and a lot of the minutiae has already been figured out from 1 year to the next.  Saves a lot of work.

It's not as big of an issue if you play all the games at a common facility, like the little league baseball team, but it's a different issue with schools that play at their own facilities.

They are both traveling leagues.  In others words one team per town.  Travel on to towns spread out over half of Mass.  Some of the games involve a 2 hour bus ride.  Not really that different than a high school.

It is only impossible if you want it to be.  It really won't be that hard.   

A mercy rule would be a lot easier to implement.

Yes it would.  But it would do nothing to improve the game.  This type of game is no fun for either team. 

If you are playing for fun, then don't keep score.

Fair enough.

But how about the other issues?  I'm not sure what else is effected by high school classification.  State Funding?  Faciliites?  Do all class 5 schools have to meet minimum requirements on facilities?  Lights?  Bathrooms?  Clubhouse/locker room etc?  I don't know, but I suspect there would other issues than simply who/where you play.

What about when new schools open or a school loses it's athletic program for a sport?

Our classes I - VI in Missouri are based on enrollment.

irrelevant.


in all divisions if you want to host a basketball game you need a basketball court of legal dimensions.

  if you want a home night game.


Completely optional.  You can mandate all the kids and spectators hold it for the entire sporting event.  In fact schools will be encouraged but not required to lock all bathrooms an hour before every event and keep them locked until an hour afterwards.  (you asked a really stupid question and you got a stupid answer)


Prohibited.  The kids are required to change into their uniforms in the hall.  This will encourage more boys to attend and watch the girls teams.  (see above)


New schools and programs would start at the bottom. (Unless there is reason to start them higher.  Such as a really big school that is in the top division for almost every sport. Handled case by case, by thinking people)

Well gonna make scheduling tough if not everyone has one.  Most high schools (at least in Texas) play games after school, gonna make scheduling tough if a team doesn't have lights.

Sure it can all be done, but there will be sacrifices.  The question is are schools gonna WANT to do it.  I don't think so.  Big schools won't want to have to cater to little schools, private schools won't want to have to cater to public schools etc.  It's gonna be really hard to get this to fly in places like Texas where sports are ultra competitive and it's been done that way for years.  It's a big deal when they decide to move a team out of a class in Texas.  The school getting moved out doesn't like it because they have to play completely different schools, lose their rivalries, make new one etc.  The schools they are going to have to play don't like it because being on the "small" end of one class is being on the "large" end of the lower class so suddenly all those teams have to play "the powerhouse", etc.  It's becomes a huge controversy and it happens once in a blue moon.  Doing that every year?  Some great team might just have a down year, so the next year they destroy everyone on their schedule.  Not to mention how are you gonna do a state playoff system?  How do you determine who plays whom?  You'd have to keep the same number of classes across the entire state, but there are like 50 High Schools in Plano area alone whereas in parts of West Texas there are 50 High Schools spread out over 100's of miles.

It's easier said than done.

If you're losing by 84 - 0 to start the 4th quarter the losing coach should have conceded the game.  Likewise the winning coach should have told his team to ease up on "D" so as to not shut-out the other team.  The coaches shouldn't have let it come to this.

He did....they let them score 3 points right?  ;D

Imagine you're the coach of the losing team.  You gotta tell your team at the end of the 3rd quarter "Look, we lost, let's just quit".  Some of your players aren't gonna like the message you're sending.  Some of the parents aren't gonna like it either.

This is why there should be a mercy rule, just like in Baseball.  Take it out of the hands of the coaches.  What are parents and players gonna do, get mad at those that made the rule? 

The mercy rule came into effect in Baseball all the time when I was growing up and I can't ever remember it being an issue.  Everyone knew the rule going in and it was just a part of the game.  I can remember games where we did everything we could to manufacture a run to keep a game going or to end it early.  When I played the rule was 10 runs after 5 innings and 15 after 4. At first blush that looks backwards, but it's not.  Games were only 6 or 7 innings long depending on the league, being down by 10 runs with a single inning left to play was considered as hard to overcome as down by 15 with 2 innings left.

So actually the rule probably ought to be 50 by halftime or 30 by the end of 3 quarters.  If you are down by 30 or more after 3 quarters, you probably ain't coming back.  It would be a bit of a culture shock at first, but once the rule became known, it would just be accepted as part of the game.

Oddly enough, I was having a conversation with my neighbors 13 year old daughter on this very topic at the supermarket last night.  She plays basketball for a local small Catholic HS.  The school only has a varsity team of 9 girls.  Her team plays other private schools, sometimes small schools sometimes; prep schools that have a varsity, JV and freshman team. 

She was with her mom and still in her basketball uniform and arguing with her mom. She wanted to quit the team.  Being the nosy person I am I asked what happened?  Her mom said, "she scored her first basket, she should be proud."  Her response was, "it was nothing like that." 

From what I gathered from the two of them the other team did just what you suggest.  Her basket came off of the 5th consecutive uncontested offensive rebound after the other team let them dribble down the court uncontested down 42-0 late in the second half.  After she scored the opposing team tried to high five her and the opposing team, coach and bench all applauded them bring the score to 42-2. The final score was 42-5. Her opinion was this was the most humiliating experience in her life, "they were treating us like we were some fucking retards from the special Olympics"  Her mom told her to watch her language.  She went on to say while she hated losing 63-0 the week before, it was not humiliating like this.   

I am sure the opposing coach and team meant well.  But at least for this girl, it is the solution was more embarrassing, not less.     

I have played softball for years and we have a mercy rule. I have been on some pretty competitive teams and have been on both sides of a rout quite a few times. While I will not strike out or miss a ball on purpose I have made it a habit of not taking extra bases when I hit if we are up a ton. I will also not fire a ball home form the outfield if we are up a ton I just throw to the nearest base. Some people hate it and feel that we are disrespecting them and others appreciate it. It is a fine line I guess. I do not personally feel right running up the score so I always instruct my team to play hard but not take extra bases.

And there's the beauty of the mercy rule.  No one has to change the way they are playing.  The team on the winning side can keep playing their best knowing that if they are up by 50 at half-time or 30 at the end of 3 quarters, the game is over.  The team on the losing side can keep playing for pride, hoping to keep it under 50 at half-time or under 30 by 3 quarters.  Just being able to say you forced the other team to play the whole game would become an accomplishment!

I just bumped into my 13 year old neighbor at the variety store. 

I asked her if she decided to quit the team or stay with it.  She said that I caught her at a bad moment the other night and that she isn't a quitter.  I told her that I was glad.  She also said that she was no longer mad at the other team and that she understood they were trying to be nice not jerks.

I told her I had been discussing the issue of blowouts in youth and high school sports with friends and minded if I asked her opinion on a few things.   She was like sure no problem.

I asked her what she thought of a mercy rule.  She said that would suck because all the games her team played would end super early.  And it would be even more embarrassing to be told we sucked so bad they were ending the game than to have the game continue. 

I asked, "I guess if you say sucked worse, that means you aren't real happy with the current situation?"  "No, shit Sherlock, how would you feel getting blown out every game? And playing against people 10 times better than you?" 

So I asked her what she thought ought be done.  Her response was:

"Let us play other teams that also suck.  Of all our games, only one team doesn't also have a JV squad and only a few don't also have a freshman squad.  That one other team which is next week, should be a fun game, will probably lose but we will keep it close, we might even win.  And the two scrimmages we had against freshman only teams from the really good schools were fun games too.  We lost, but by only 1 or 2 points each. But we are only allowed to play two scrimmages a year.   I would rather just play that one other not so good team over and over and so would they.  One of the teams is going to get their only win for the year.  I hope it is us, but it will probably be them."   

It sucks either way honestly, but at least you don't have teams forced to make a decision about not playing hard or letting the other team score or any of that nonsense.  It's the lesser of 2 evils.

Not necessarily.  Lets say the mercy rule was up by 35 at the half.  One team is up by 33 with only a min left in the half.  The winning coach doesn't want to embarrass the other team by invoking the mercy rule so tells her team to back off for the final minute of the half.   

BTW she is saying the same thing I am saying.  Let the good teams play other good teams.  Let not so good teams play other not so good teams.  And lets avoid having the elite teams play the really bad teams. 

I've never seen this happen in baseball even once and I played in and watched a TON of games when I was a kid.  Baseball was pretty much my life back then.  In fact just the opposite happens, teams are TRYING to get that last 2 points so they can finish you off and get the WIN.  What coach is gonna tell his team to back off and risk possibly letting the other team come back in the 2nd half?  For what?  No, you take the win when you can get it and spare the other team the embarrassment of getting beat 108-3.

They also recommend "time out" for kids who misbehave now.  In my day a good spanking did the same job and did it better. Please no child abuse threats, my kids are all healthy and happy today.  Can everyone say that? 

Personally I think part of playing sports is character building.  Learning how to lose is every bit as important as learning how to win.  Sometimes you just gotta take your lumps.  Getting beat is a great motivator to get better.

My daughter Jessica started at goalie all 4 years for her high school soccer team.  No not Hillary, another daughter, I have 3 of them that played soccer. :)  Anyway her school just happened to be barely over the size limit to be a 5A school, all the other schools in 5A were much bigger in size.  At Plano you HAD to be either a Junior or Senior to play on the varsity team and they had a JV and Freshman team as well, Jessica's school only had a varsity team.  To make a long story short, they whipped us pretty good Jessica's Freshman through Junior years.  Jessica would normally stop about 30 shots and give up 2 or 3 goals and we'd lose 2 or 3 to zero. Her senior year however she shut them out and we tied them 0-0.  You'd have thought we just won State.  For Jessica that WAS the equivalent of winning the state championship.  Playing Plano brought out the best in her even if we never won a game against them.

There is a big difference between losing and getting blown out game after game.  A soccer team I played on just folded because we could not compete and kept getting killed.  It's not fun. 

BTW - never spanked my kids & they are healthy and happy

Yes you just think they are. You need to smack them around to get the best out of them!!  :D

Hopefully I do not need to post a "joking" disclaimer!! 

Losing 2-0 or 3-0 is quite a bit different than 108 - 3.

You mentioned your daughters team lost to Plano every year.  That is bit different than losing to every team, every year.  With most games being blowouts.

I bet Jessica would not have been a happy camper if every game had a final score of 11-0 or 12-0 with an occasional close game of 3-0.   

This girl is okay with taking some lumps....she wasn't complaining about losing all the games, she just wanted to play in games where they had a shot. 

True, but it is soccer not basketball.  We usually might have 1 shot on goal, so we never really had much of a realistic shot at winning.  Also try telling that to your daughter who is the goalie.  She thought she should have stopped every last goal so to let in 2 or 3 goals, for her was a lot.  She had quite a few shutouts in her high school career.

Again that's true, but how often does that really occur?  It's not that often.  Certainly not often enough to make what your talking about necessary.  Grouping schools by size works fairly well to keep things fairly even.  Sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimes really bad teams are just gonna have to accept the fact that they are really bad or the other teams are really good.

And it wasn't just Plano that we lost to.  We pretty much lost or tied every single game because Jessica would keep us in the game, but Plano was the best team we had to play.

I understand and I sympathize with her, but that's life, it's not always fair.  Sometimes it's really unfair.  I'm not saying I don't care, I'm just saying that I don't really think that we have to really try to force things to always be fair.  Sometimes unfair is a learning experience. It motivates us to work harder and to overcome the odds.  Some people give up when the going gets tough and some don't, they work harder, they get stronger.  It's not always a bad thing.

Sounds like she also got over it pretty quickly.  She was upset right after it happened, but then she got over it and perhaps she's a stronger person for it.  She learned how to deal with being embarrassed.  That's a good thing.

I wouldn't have a probablem with the mercy rule idea, but I wouldn't think it would come into play that often, which is why they probably don't have the rule.  The reason for the rule in baseball/softball is that there is no clock, and the game could go on forever.

She accepts that her team is really bad and that other teams are really good.  What neither of us understand is why the elite best teams need to play the really bad teams. Let the really good teams play other really good teams.  Let really bad teams play other really bad teams.


Not really.  She has gotten to the point that she no longer considers them jerks for letting them score.

She is also resigned to the idea that in all likelihood she will graduate high school having never won a single game and only rarely ever play in game in which they aren't totally blown out.  I don't think it is healthy for a teenager to have to go thru the 2008 Lion's season. 

Actually you could solve it by saying any school that uses "scholarships" for sports to recruit talent cannot play any public school, and only other private schools that do the same thing.

Except I don't of a single private HS that gives pure sports scholarships, all of them are based on a combination of factors such as academic success, financial need, promoting diversity, character and leadership.  It just a mere coincidence that year after year the poor, inner-city black kids with a C average that made the newspapers "all state all eight grade team" edged others out on the character and leadership qualities at some schools.

And almost every private school has some sort of scholarship program so it would be hard to implement what you suggest.