The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

For those that don't know, adult kickball is very much like baseball, except there are a few rule differences, as well as different strategies.

The main rule difference is that you can hit someone with the ball on the base-path as an out.

- Bunting is huge.  Because the ball is cumbersome, the easiest way to get on base is to bunt. 

- Because the sport is co-ed, you need to pay attention to who is next in your lineup when making decisions.  And 99% of girls can't kick it out of the infield.  So, for example, you don't ever want to have a girl kicking with bases loaded.  So, with 2 on with a guy up and a girl next, you have the guy kick away (especially with 2 outs). 

The question that we were debating last night is this:

1st player: bunt down 3rd.  Safe at 1st.
2nd player: bunt down 3rd, players safe on 1st and 2nd.
3rd player: (girl) bunt down 1st...

NOW...

As 1st baseman, it's my job to charge bunts down the 1st base line.   It's the RF's job to cover the bag at first, but she's realistically not going to get there, and even if she did, she doesn't have the arm-strength to make the throw to home, should the guy run home.  My options are to "eat it" and load the bases OR flick the ball at her legs, getting the out, but giving up a run (from the guy who will round 3rd and come home.)

So, the question is -- Do you take the out?

In my case (the same situation happened twice with the same girl), I threw at her legs both times, recorded 2 outs and gave up 2 runs.  Knowing the quality of my team (not being great defensively and having our weaker players in the outfield), I am of the mind that you take outs when you can get them.  We're also the kind of team that gives up runs in bunches.  We'll give up 7 runs, but 5 will come in one inning, for example. 

But some think that you're better off loading the bases and forcing the hand of the batter to deliver a big kick.

Where do you stand?

Does a ball have to be thrown in order to be out? I ask because of the soccer players I am associated with. They can trap and nail you by kicking it much faster than a normal person can pick up a ball and throw it.

We have picnics and parties and once in a while we play kickball. Being they are soccer that is how some play but I never thought about whether that was actually legal. 

No, you can get an out a traditional way (throwing to the baseman on the base, as a force) OR
- tag them with the ball
- throw it at them
- kick it at them
- deflect it into them
- it can bounce into them from their own kicker

Kicking is used by fielders, but rarely for hitting into someone (but only because the risk is so high).  Kicking is more often used to get the ball in from the outfield quickly.  But occasionally, you'll see a 3rd baseman kick the ball to first -- it's rare, because it usually ends up with a ball out of bounds and a free path to 2nd.

I have a question about your question.  

 



Lets review:  There is a girl "at bat".  99% of the girls can't hit the ball out of the infield.  Why the heck is the RF playing so deep that she can't cover 1st base?  

I have 2 questions?

1)  What is the pitcher doing on these bunts?  I'm not familiar with co-ed adult kickball, but from when I was a kid if there was that much bunting going on, the pitcher would be charging the plate as soon as the ball was pitched waiting for bunts.  Is that somehow not allowed or is it just too dangerous for the pitcher to get that close in case they actually kick the ball?

2)  Can't you also record an out by simply tagging the player with the ball in your hands just like in baseball/softball?  My first thought on a bunt down first base line would be to try to tag the runner rather than throwing the ball at them and then try to throw the ball home if the player tries to score from 2nd base.  In your scenario you are talking about a girl on 2nd I believe, she shouldn't be able to score that quickly and if she does try to score and you have the ball in your hands you could throw the ball at her to get her out.

If you can't simply tag the batter and hold the person on 2nd from scoring, I think I would be inclined to simply eat it and take my chances with a guy coming to the plate and the bases full.  That way you preserve a run and also preserve a force play at any base.  By hitting the player in the legs and allowing a run to score you are also eliminating a possible force out.

I seem to agree that you take an out when you can get it. I'd really need to think on the strategy a bit more but my gut says take the out.

That's a fair question.  When I say "can't kick out of the infield", that isn't literal.  They just can't get hits to the outfield, kick over heads, kick into gaps, etc.  The most damage they can do is a shallow blooper.  The outfielders do move in and are supposed to be able to cover the bag.  However, realistically, it just isn't going to happen in most cases, for someone who's not that familiar with kickball to be able to make that judgment.  There are some advanced girls in my leagues, but not this particular one.

Here's how we would have handled the same situation in baseball.  Pitcher covers 1st base line on bunts, 1st baseman stays put.  3rd baseman covers 3rd base line on bunts, shortstop covers 3rd base, 2nd baseman covers 2nd.

The pitcher then has 3 options if they field the bunt, tagging the batter on their way to 1st base to get the out and hold the runner at 3rd, throwing to 1st base to get the out and the 1st baseman immediately looking to throw out the player at home if they try to score or simply eating the ball and loading the bases if option 1 or 2 doesn't seem likely.

The rule is that there is a line drawn from first base to 3rd base.  No player is allowed to occupy that triangle (to home plate) until the kicker makes contact with the ball.  So, the pitcher can charge (and often does), but can't go until the ball is kicked.  Balls up the first base line get to the first baseman much quicker, especially when you're expecting it and the 1st baseman can time his approach.


Yes, you can, but in these cases, the runner runs past the ball, so there's no opportunity to hit the player and still be holding the ball.  I am throwing back towards 1st, after already having run past the runner.

Ah, well that changes everything.

In that case I think what I would do is have your pitcher or 2nd baseman cover 1st base while the 1st baseman charges.  1st baseman then would have the option of either trying to get the out at first by throwing the ball to whomever is covering 1st (assuming this is someone who could then try to get the runner out going home) or eating it.  No throwing at the runner just to get the out since it's gonna allow the run and give up the force at the same time.  If you can at least have a shot at getting the out and getting the runner at the plate, I'd try it, but not sacrifice a run to get an out and give up the force play.

The force play is almost meaningless.  In bunts (which are most plays), you get your outs at 1st, primarily (if the batter is doing what they're supposed to.)  It's rare to throw from home plate to 2nd, as the distance is hard to manage with a ball of that size.  Force plays only come into play when teams are mismanaged (bunting down 3rd with men on 1st and 2nd) or when bases are loaded, because you try to get your bunts out at home.

And you can't really have the pitcher or 2nd baseman cover 1st.  You need the pitcher to stay on the mound (in general) because there's a rule that you can't advance bases if the ball is back to the pitcher on the mound.  Plus, the pitcher needs to charge as well, in case the bunt goes ahead (instead of down the line like it's supposed to.

Seems like loading the bases and bunting constantly is a sitting duck situation.

Fisrtly, to me, the RF covering first seems wrong.  Can't the 2B cover and the SS take 2nd?  This seems to make more sense.
secondly, I'd give up the out to hold the run.  Unless there's already 2 outs, then take the 3rd out and go home.  Because the next batter with bases loaded, if he bunts (which you say most plays are bunts) you get the easy force out at home.  Rinse, Repeat.

Fundamentals says that no out is more valuable than a run (with less than 2 outs on the board).  Unless runs are commonplace in kickball and every game is 18-15 score, I'd definitely think giving up the out to save the run is better.

Not to mention that what happens if you throw at her legs and miss - the run scores, maybe another run, and you still don't get the out.

Bunts are what people do when bases are open.  (in most cases)

When bases are full, you kick away.  Even if it's caught, runs come in.  ...and this isn't the MLB.  Lots and lots and lots of balls are dropped in the outfield.

You have to throw conventional baseball wisdom out the window, because of the size of the ball and the talent level of the people involved.

I was actually considering my softball experience, which is of course closer to baseball than kickball, but there is still a lot of "mistakes."

But, regardless, with bases loaded you have a force out at every base.  More opportunity to get that next out and more onus on the batter to make a play.  You said that "kicking away" is less likely to get you on base than bunting.  If you take the out, a run scores and you get an out, but you leave a runner on third (presumably the guy rounds second and stops at third) and he can/will score on the next play anyway.

I am starting to think your strategy depends greatly on who the on-deck batter is.  If its Pele, or if its Paris Hilton, the strategies might be different.

In that case I think I would have to favor eating the ball.  I don't like the concept of giving up a run to get an out, I'd rather prevent the run and keep the force play at the plate in tact and force the next batter to make a decision as to what they are gonna do.  By taking the out and letting the runner score you are effectively taking any decision away from the batter, they can bunt down 3rd with little chance they'll become an out and effectively put you right back into the same situation you were just in.

That explains why the pitcher can't cover 1st, but it doesn't explain why the 2nd baseman couldn't cover first.

Ok, I'm trying to get a picture of this in my head.  I played co-ed softball so I'm not completely clueless what you're talking about, but let me ask a couple more questions to get a good picture in my head.

What does your defensive lineup look like? In co-ed softball, our line-up looked like the following assuming the normal numbering system for positions 1-pitcher, 2-catcher, 3-1st, 4-2nd, 5-3rd, 6-SS, 7-left, 8-center, 9-right, 10-rover.

1-MALE, 2-FEMALE, 3-FEMALE, 4-MALE, 5-FEMALE, 6-MALE, 7-MALE, 8-FEMALE, 9-MALE, 10-FEMALE

We had 2 fairly decent female players and they played 1st and 3rd, but you could swap the 1st and 2nd baseman.  Either way you pretty much always have females flanked with males on either side of them.  On fly balls the males tried to cover the females the best they could which meant that they would call them off of fly balls if they could get there unless the female was pretty good and didn't need the help.  Is that pretty much how it is in kick ball?  There were still plenty of times that balls were hit into places that players couldn't get to, but rarely did some little pop-up go uncaught.

I guess what I'm driving at is trying to determine just hard it is to get a hit.  On one hand you're saying that almost everyone bunts when there are bases open and I'm just having a hard time figuring out why that is.  Is that just a courtesy thing or is it really that difficult to get a hit?  If it is, then I would think you would WANT to keep the bases loaded and force someone to get a hit to drive in runs rather than score on a bunt, so that would favor eating the ball. 

On the other hand you seem to be saying that balls drop in the outfield all the time.  If balls drop in the outfield all the time, then your logic seems sound, take the out when you can get it, but then why is bunting so prevelant?  Why not kick away more often and avoid the whole bases loaded thing constantly?  I can see maybe having your females bunt to get on if they are not strong kickers, but guys too?  Anytime there are bases open?  I would think you would want your guys kicking away whenever there was anyone on base to move the runners.

I seem to be missing something.

I think people are also thinking about throwing a baseball or softball. They keep brining up forcing an out at the plate. You aren't going to be able to throw that big rubber ball from the outfield (remember kick away is the normal plan with bases loaded) to home plate and get anyone out. By not taking an out when you get it you are in double jeopardy, you didn't get an out when you had the chance and you are still giving up a run.

You could be in a position of having one out , a run scored and a person in scoring position (second base I assume) if you take the out. If you eat the ball like is being proposed this sounds like the best possible scenario. The person kicks away, even if you catch the ball the runner on third scores. Depending on who catches the ball in the outfield and what they do with it then depends on if you only have one runner in scoring position or two. Either way, you likely still have two base runners on instead of one and you only have one out (and you still gave up a run).

Ok, I went back and read your first post again and I understand.  You wouldn't have a guy bunt to load the bases or if the bases were loaded or if there were 2 outs, they only bunt to be assured of getting on base and really very little chance of causing an out and no chance of causing the bases to be loaded with a girl coming up.

Ok, then I'm definately on the side of eating the ball and letting the girl take 1st base, let me explain.

If you do what you did, get the out and let the runner score, here's what you end up with, 1 player on base (2nd or 3rd) with a guy coming to the plate.  What's to prevent the guy from bunting and the girl behind him bunting?  Nothing.  Now you have another guy at the plate, you've already let in a run, the bases are loaded (possibly) and all you have to show for it is 1 out.  You have effectively put yourself into the same position again just to record a single out and no one has had to kick there way onto base. 

I think I'd put the guy into the position of having to kick the ball rather than bunt his way on and hope to catch it and record the out that way.  You would have recorded 1 out(the GUY rather than the GIRL), have 2 players on base (1st and 2nd presumably) and have allowed 1 run in (player on 3rd tags) with a girl coming to the plate.  I think that's a better scenario to be in.

You are assuming that no one got an out with either of those bunts. I don't like that line of thinking. What if the guy bunts and you get him out? Then you have two outs.

One thing I have learned about strategy and playing pool. You can play a defensive game all day long (what I consider eating the ball in this scenario) but in order to win you usually have to step up and make a play yourself (going for the out rather than playing strategy the entire time).

It is all theory and both sides can likely help or hurt you. I think it is really a gut call in this case because no matter what choice you make, something can go wrong or right with either choice.

Well I'm going with the assumption that bunting is a sure way on base for a guy as long as there is a base open.  Sounds like that is pretty much true or else guys wouldn't bunt whenever a base was open.

Sounds like the only way to record an out on a guy is to force him to kick the ball and have a chance at catching it in the air.

Bunting gives you the best chance to get on base because 3 things have to happen:  the fielder has to correctly play the ball (which is actually pretty difficult with a ball that's bouncy), they have to set and throw, and 1B has to catch.

Guys do not, by any means, automatically get on base.  The ball comes in spinning, so while it's almost impossible to throw out the perfect bunt, most bunts aren't perfect.  Kicking away can actually make it harder for your baserunners, too.  Imagine a runner on 1st.  If there's a bunt, they are on 2nd, uncontested.  If there is a hit to the outfield, they can EASILY get thrown out at 2nd.  Remember, it's not like baseball.  The ball dies because it has so much surface area, so unless it's crushed, it's not a deep ball.

Well not really, you can hit the runner with the ball, but I understand what you are saying.

But I'm assuming that your odds are better than trying to kick the ball and risk it being caught in the air.  If that's not true then why would you ever bunt?

Which again is why I say you should eat the ball and make them put it in play with 3 runners on.  Earlier you were saying that force outs aren't really an issue, but now you just said they are.  It doesn't really matter whether or not you actually toss the ball to a player to get a force out or not, if you are just able to hit them with the ball as they are trying to run they are out. A runner who HAS to run (force play) is in jeopardy on any balls to the field.  That was my point earlier.

Exactly.  Lots of chances to get players out when the bases are loaded.  You can catch the ball in the air, catch it on 1 hop and throw someone out at a base or hit them with the ball, kick it into them, tag them etc.  With all those runners who HAVE to run, there's a lot of possible ways to get players out.

Not only that but you have to consider WHO you might get out.  In your scenario you are leaving 1 player (girl) on the bases with a run scored and 1 out and a guy coming to the plate. He has multiple options.  He can kick it long or bunt.  The girl behind him can do the same.

In my scenario you are leaving 3 players on the bases (at least 1 girl if not 2), with no runs scored and no outs with a guy coming to the plate.  He doesn't have as many options.  If he tries to bunt, there's a very good chance that you can get the lead runner out and have 1 outs recorded and no runs scored, he pretty much has to kick it.  If he kicks it, you can catch it and possibly even get another player out if they try to tag, by hitting them with the ball.  Granted that you're probably not gonna get the guy at home, but the other 2 players are probably gonna have to stay unless it's a clean hit.  Even if it is a clean hit, you still have chances to get players out with all those players running.

In your scenario you are taking out the 1 player who is the LEAST valuable in the whole scenario, the batter (a girl) and letting the MOST valuable person score.  You want to take out the lead runner if possible and failing that you would like to take out one of the other runners other than the batter.  If you can't do that then holding everyone to 1 base and allowing no one to score I think would be more valueable as you're leaving lots of runners on the bases to potentially get out (including the lead runner even if it's only a remote possibility) plus the batter (a guy) who is going to be kicking away.  It's better to get a guy out than a girl because she's less of a threat on the base paths.

It sounds like kickball would be better if that "no one is allowed in the short infield until after it gets kicked" rule is abolished.  That rule basically says "bunt all the time..."

I disagree.  It gives (almost) everyone a chance to play and get on base.  It everyone is kicking away all the time, it'd be really hard to score any runs.

You should play, Brian.  I bet you'd like it.

^^ I've considered it, I'd like to, but it appears to require a big time expenditure that I can't afford to invest right now.  Plus I wouldn't want to just jump in and join a team by myself in a random league full of random people. 

I do keep it in mind, though.  I still get WAKA emails.

I can't stand right now...I'm too busy rolling on the ground, laughing about two pages of kickball strategy discussion. ;)

^^^OMG, I was thinking the same thing.  I was going to ask who was up after the girl, but wanted to read through to make sure no one else asked the question...lost interest somewhere along the way.  35 years since I last played kickball.

I have played first base on a championship kickball team and I've run into this situation several times over the years. So, to clarify there are runners at 2nd and 3rd with 1 out (after 3rd kicker sacrifice bunted to first base):

You say the next kicker is a girl who bunts toward first base, trying to sacrifice the run in? Be ready for it, you said she did it twice. Have your catcher play on the right side of the kicker or have your pitcher pitch to her inside, making the bunt much more difficult. Try to "bounce" the pitch so she has trouble keeping it on the ground.

But if she still manages to lay down the perfect first base foul line bunt, have your pitcher charge the ball and fake a throw to first base. The guy at third base will probably be aggressive, it might pull him off. If it's a perfect bunt and the 3rd base runner doesn't bite on the fake, then eat it.

But now the offense has the upper hand, with bases loaded and 1 out, they can kick away with no worries. They will probably score at least one run anyway. But you have held one run from scoring and with some luck, and some bad kicking on their part, you have the opportunity to make it out of the inning with no runs scored.

Where the hell is the catcher in all of this?

No, I don't think that's the scenario he's talking about, but I think the answer is still pretty much the same. He's talking about runners at first and second, nobody out with a girl coming to the plate. She bunts to first. What do you do? Do you try to get her out by throwing the ball at her or do you just eat the ball and load the bases for the guy coming to the plate? I still think the answer is the same as your scenario, you eat the ball and load the bases. The only time you would want to get the out in my opinion is if you can do it while still holding onto the ball. If you can do that, then you get the out and still prevent a run from scoring, that would be ideal. If you have to throw the ball to get the out, it's not worth it as a run is probably gonna score. Heck they could score 2 runs depending on where the ball goes after throwing it. Too risky.