The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82533f7d/article/tebows-day-not-ruined-by-highprofile-loss-to-patriots?module=HP11_cp

Not a question about his on-field play, but his off-field.

I hear people complaining about his praying too much or including god into too much and I have to wonder, if you think Tim Tebow is a bad sports role model, who is your ideal sports role model?

Lets see?  Is it Micheal Vick?  Tiger Woods? Plaxico Burres?  A. Cromartie?  PacMan Jones? 

Instead of spending the insane amount of money that NFL teams pay sports stars on hookers and drugs, he uses it to help sick children.  Instead of getting drunk after the game he inspires people with terminal illnesses. 

I don't share Tim's religious views, but if every kid in peewee football considered Tim his role model and wanted to model his life after Tim's (as opposed to the rest of the NFL players) I would say that would be wonderful. 

So who is your ideal sports hero?

Let me throw this name out there:  Kurt Warner.

See, while both of them are card-carrying members of Team Jesus, Warner didn't have an army of fans demanding that his coach allow him to play, and he never had anyone trying to excuse his subpar play by referencing his team's record.  He earned his way on to an NFL team, he played flawlessly when he got his shot, and when he was cast to the curb with STL and NYG, he did it all over again at ARI.

That's what I call a sports role model.

I've got no problem with Tebow off the field. I would hope everyone would look up to be like him regardless of your religious convictions.

Warner also didn't incessantly bring Jesus into every single conversation. You like Jesus, we get it.

On the other hand, Warner's wife... Well, I'm not sure which wah that counts.

Three points for consideration:
1. Tebow has NO control over the media, his fans, or what other people "want." It's a strawman argument. You can't hold what other people do or say against Tebow. His army of fans, any excuses made, etc. are not him, and are immaterial to HIS actual character.
2. I must have missed an entire realm of the NFL season, because I actually don't see Tebow talking religion as much as some people make it out to be. He thanks God when he wins; thousands of other athletes do the same thing. I get the impression that he does talk religion more than the average athlete, yes, but I also get the impression that the media and the anti-Tebow camp blow that out of proportion and make it more of a story than it is. EVERY press conference or interview with the guy has at least one religion-based question. What's he going to do- be a jerk like many other athletes often are, and ignore the question? I'm not saying I'm spot on with this, just that it's something I've seen, and no one else seems to consider. Go back and read some of his post-game press conferences. He thanks God to open, then doesn't mention him again, or may make mention once, as in "I thanked God when Barber ran out of bounds." EVERY other comment he makes is about his team; accolades for his teammates; belief in his coaches. Don't believe me- read for yourself. These are his answers to every question asked of him after the Chicago game:
"I don't think we necessarily get focused on the stats or what's happened in the past. Obviously, that can be frustrating. We had opportunities early and we didn't take advantage of them, so that kind of put us in a position where we were behind, which was disappointing.

"But guys kept encouraging one another, defense kept encouraging offense; the offense encouraging special teams. Just try to keep believing until the very end. It wasn't looking very good, but guys kept, shoot, encouraging me, at all times, believing in me, and we kept believing, and I think that's special when you have a team that believes and a team that's going to continually fight for 60 minutes, even though it's not looking good and even though it might be frustrating.

"We might have had opportunities and missed them, but we kept fighting and kept going, and the defense played phenomenal and came up with a bunch of huge stops, and we were finally able to get a drive there and score — a bunch of guys stepped up on that drive; the offensive line protected great, and D.T. stepped up on that drive; and Jeremiah and Lance and Deck, and a bunch of guys really stepped up, and we were able to get the ball back and find a way to go down there and.

"Shoot, it's kind of like a blur, I don't even remember everything that happened — but you can't say enough about Prater and how clutch he is and how much he means to our team. He's a great guy and a great person and a great player, and I'm proud that he's on our team."

Tim, was there a wrinkle that the Bears gave you that you had a little trouble figuring out?

"No sir, not really. I just think that we had some opportunities. You've got to give them credit, they are a very good defense. They came up with a bunch of big plays. Those two guys in the middle are pretty good. Brian Urlacher​ and Lance Briggs​ are pretty good, and it's fun to get to go against them.

They are known for, at least Urlacher, likes to chat with the quarterback. Did you have any conversations?

"Shoot, the only thing we talked about, pretty much, was he likes going to Florida to fish, and he came to one of our practices when I was in college at the University of Florida, and he was great. And Lance Briggs, what a player he is. They've got a lot of players. That interception Charles Tillman​ had was a great play. Bad decision on my part, which I can't have, and I've got to improve, but that was a great play."

Does it surprise, even you, so many things have to take place, just in this game, nevermind all the other things that happen. Marion Barber running out of bounds after the two minute warning?

"I might have thanked the Lord when he did that. I said, 'Oh, the Lord has something to do with it now.'

"He obviously, probably shouldn't do that, and that kept us in it. I mean, we probably would have had 10 seconds if he stayed in-bounds, but, it was just special.

"If you believe, unbelievable things can sometimes be possible. I think that's pretty special that we have a team that constantly believes and believes in each other."

Saying that, was there ever one time in the fourth quarter where you thought you were going to lose the football game?

"At certain times in the game where I was very frustrated and disappointed. Obviously, I thought we had opportunities — we had opportunities for the lead — so it was disappointing we were down 10-0. But great things are only possible if you're under very tough circumstances. That was a great comeback for this team, and it was led by our defense and coaches and a team that constantly believes."

Last week you laughed at me when I said you guys thrive in these situations. You clearly played better again today when it was the toughest situation to be in.

"I think my teammates make me look a lot better than I am. They really stepped up and came up with some huge plays, and I'm so proud of them. And the way D.T. stepped up on that last drive. You know, just good for him. I'm very proud of those guys.

"I think that is a character quality of a good team. When it is clutch and you need competitive greatness, you have to step up and you have to make those plays. If you're able to do it when it really matters, usually you can find a way. We've just got to get better at doing it for four quarters."

On the touchdown drive, you threw a pass earlier in the drive to Thomas and got blind-sided after you threw the ball. It was the second completion of the drive. You seemed to be a little woozy afterward when you got up. I was just wondering if…

"I'm feeling pretty good now. I necessarily don't remember that play well, it was kind of a blur. We had a lot of plays there on the last few drives. They had some good pressures and a good front, they got in there a few times and made some good plays. You got to give them credit there. Those are some really good players. Ryan Clady​ did a great job with Julius Peppers​ but he's a great player and he'll come up with some big plays too.

Were you frustrated by some of the dropped passes?

"I've just got to do a better job and just improve with accuracy and put it on my receivers more. They come up with a bunch of big plays, so I was just proud of their effort."

Regarding Tebow Time, do you think the clock needs to be readjusted a little bit? When you look at it, each game keeps coming down to the end and when you look at the first 3 ½ quarters statistically it's not pretty. How do you get this so you can do this a little earlier?

"I don't think it's 'Tebow Time'; I just think it's 'Bronco Time,' and the team steps up as a team. We play for one another and continue to trust one another, and I think that makes all the difference in the world."

Until everything went right, what was the most frustrating part today of everything going wrong?

"Just that we had opportunities, and we were able to move the ball and do some things, and it would be frustrating the way it got stopped or — one time it was, like a third-and-four, and I stepped up in the pocket and kind of made Urlacher miss, and then he got my foot, and I was a half-yard short of the first down. We get that first down, who knows what happens after that because we're already at midfield.

"When we got into the red zone, we had a few plays that they kind of snuffed out and did a good job on defense. Disappointed we didn't score there. And we also have a good drive going early, and I throw the pick to Tillman, and it was just frustrating because I felt like there were opportunities — even though a very good defense, and they made their plays — I felt like there were opportunities for us to get a lead in that game. It's disappointing that we didn't."

What did you tell Damarius Thomas after that last pass that went through his hands?

"I just said, 'Don't worry about it.' I actually told him — I was wrong — but I told him he was going to score the game-winning touchdown. He scored the one (touchdown) to get us within three, and then he came up with a bunch of huge plays to help us win it. He didn't technically score the game-winning touchdown, but I'll still give him the credit."

Why does it often take you so long to warm up? Fabulous again, not so fabulous…?

"I guess I just gotta get to the stadium and start practicing a little bit earlier. Just got to go back to the drawing board and find a way to get a little bit better in practice and try to improve and just try to get better as a quarterback and as a player and find a way to get this offense in the end zone early."

Does something come over you late? They talk about your eyes getting bigger? Does something come over you?

"I don't thinks so, Coach Meyer always preached at Florida, and Coach Fox always says it here. Coach Meyer always said 'competitive excellence.' When you're number is called; when it really matters, you're going to step up. And Coach Fox calls it 'competitive greatness.'

"It pretty much means the same thing: When you're number's called in the clutch time you better step up and make the play. I'm just proud that a lot of the guys on this team are like that, from our receivers to our offensive line to the defense to Prater to Britton . I'm just trying to improve every single day."

To Matt Willis — the guy is just clutch. Tell us a little about Matt Willis?

"I'm proud of Matt. He's definitely one of the more underrated guys, and he shouldn't be. He's a phenomenal receiver, and he's just so patient and so unselfish, and his approach and how plays — and he blocks so hard — and then when you need him in some clutch time he's going to step up and have huge catches. And you'll never hear from him. He'll never say, 'I was open' or 'Throw it to me,' but when you throw it to him he's going to step up and make the play, and I'm so proud and so happy he's on our team."

How would you describe just the last 6 to 8 weeks?

"It's definitely been somewhat of a whirlwind. been a lot of big games, and we've been fortunate to find a way to pull out most of them (7-1), and for us we've just got to take it one day at a time and figure out a way to improve; figure out a way to put the ball in the end zone earlier in games; and figure out a way to convert on third downs. I thought we did a little better job of that today, but a few other things would kind of stall us in drives. Sometimes you've got to give credit to the defense, but also I feel like we can just keep improving."

You're one game up in the AFC West, do you sense it's there for the taking?

"Well, like I said, it's one day at a time. That's something that's exciting and motivating, so it's not like we're not paying attention to that, it's just that we have to take it one day at a time, and we have to know what's on the line, and I think we have to up our game.

"Coach Fox talked about it: There's preseason; there's regular season; and then there's the playoff push before the playoffs, and we're in that playoff push. We have to find a way to get better and find a way to try and win some of these games."

How does the story end, Tim?

"That depends who's writing it.

"I think this has just been a great season, and I'm proud to be on a team with a bunch of guys who are high-character, coaches that are high-character, and however it ends I know I'm that I'm going to proud of all those guys and proud of the effort we put forth."

After the game, Brian Urlacher referred to you as a good running back. How do you take that comment?

"Coming from a really good player, that means a lot."


Where's the overwhelming talk of religion in that???

3. Warner- despite being a great role model and playing incredible, was FAR from flawless. The reason he was "cast to the curb" is because of his play. Bulger replaced him after he fumbled SIX TIMES in one game. I would think any QB would be replaced under those circumstances. That's not flawless. He also wasn't cut or "cast to the curb" by the Giants. He CHOSE to leave. He didn't resign because Eli was the future of that team, so he CHOSE to go to Arizona. He played his ass off there, and IMO should be in the HOF, but don't rewrite history and say he was "flawless," when he wasn't. Further, whether he was the greatest QB in the history of time or not, is immaterial to this thread. The original question, specifically, was "Not a question about his on-field play, but his off-field." Saying that Warner is somehow "better" than Tebow because of Tebow's fans calling for him to start, while Warner's didn't doesn't have anything to do with either of them specifically. It has to do with their fans. We already have a thread about that topic, do we not?

I don't like people digging around the sports world to find role models. Athletes and rock stars typically aren't role models. People need to teach their children the difference between what an entertainer and a role model is.

EK thats just way too long of a post to read.  I think it's the media hype, more than it is Tebow.  Just thought of the movie North Dallas Forty when reading the OP talking about drugs and religion on football teams.

I agree, Phishfan.....BUT the reality is kids do look up to sports and rock stars as role model. 

Okay, so both nominations for a better role model is a guy that is retired.  Almost 1700 active players in the NFL today.


Spider -  I won't hold the actions of fans against a player. If he was a locker room problem demanding to play, I would hold that against him. Just like I wouldn't hold it against Matt Moore because Dolphin fans were calling for Henne to be benched. 

Warner earned his spot with his play, which (from 99-01) was as close to flawless as any 3-year stretch any QB has had in NFL history, I'd say.

Are you honestly contending that an MVP QB will be released because of his play in one game?

How many times would Tom Brady have to fumble in order for NE to cut him?  6?  7?

False.  Warner signed a two-year deal with NYG in 2004 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1814878) and was cut after one year, at which point he signed a 1-year, $4 million contract with ARI.

Warner worked his way up from the Arena League and earned his stripes, while still presenting the squeaky-clean image that Tebow does.  And that's my idea of a sports role model; someone that displays determination and hard work to achieve his accomplishments, instead of being handed opportunities as the "chosen one" because of non-football-related factors.

It almost seems like you're trying to argue that Warner is less of a model citizen than Tebow.  If so, I hope you have some evidence for this.

Can we not discuss his play in this thread? It was after all not supposed to be about play. We already have you arguing about this same thing in another thread Spider, can you just keep it there and stay on topic here?

And quite possibly that is because parents are not sitting down and discussing having talent and being a role model do not necessarily equate.

Warner brought it up all the time.  The first thing out of his mouth, post game, every time, was to thank his personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I guess memories are short around here.

Anyone ever watch a Nascar race?  These guys win and they rattle off "I'd like to thank.." and then go on a 3 minute shopping list of all their sponsors.  Somehow that doesn't bother people as much as the thanking Jesus stuff does.  I guess as long as you're thinking Home Depot, Dr. Pepper and Quickie Lube it's okay.

Personally, I tune it all out.  I don't care what any of these guys have to say.  I just want to watch them play.

+1 That is why I started a different thread.  His skills as a football player have been discussed ad nasuem.  I don't get the hate against him as a person and his character.  As if most people in his profession are better role models.


Umm... yeah, because a parent sitting down and telling their teenager not consider sports stars role models or heros will automaticly convince them to look elsewhere for their role models.  

I know it won't cure all ills and it isn't like one discussion would do it either. It is more complex than that and revolves more around how the kids are raised their entire lives. Parents don't sit down and have these types of discussions nearly enough. In fact many parents I know don;t even try to be role models themselves.

In combination and over a period of time it will help to create a mindset. That is more what I'm trying to say. Some will listen, some won't Some will understand, some won't. Kids can still admire their these athletes and entertainers talents. They can act like them on the playground or in front of a mirror. They need to understand that these talents don't make them role models though.

Not saying that AT ALL. Stop putting words in my mouth to fuel your argument. There's another thread about play. Put your weak argument there. This was about off the fireld stuff. Warner's play- which I ALREADY STATED should make him a HOF-er-- has nothing to do with this argument. And for the record, he fumbled six times, and gave way to a better QB at that time, which is why Bulger kept his spot. Why did you duck the only pertinant points I made to this thread? His fans have nothing to do with Tebow's own actions, and his press conference wasn't quite so much peppered with religion as you want it to be to make yourself seem correct. -EK

I agree with that.  But given that entertainers ARE role models and that is unlikely to change.  My question is who amoung them are better role models, given all the hate against Tebow for his actions. 

I'd say it is hard to find one better. Tebow is one of the few examples of an athlete I think people should consider as a role model. Limiting the universe of selection to athletes though makes it a rather short list of possible choices though.

EK, your multi-page-long quote of one Tebow press conference would be an awesome retort if I had said, "I really disliked how many times Tebow referred to Jesus in the Chicago post-game press conference."  And as far as his fans go, that's the point: that is an off-the-field factor that contributed to his success, not unlike if he happened to be Phil Simms' son or came from a rich family.

I think my citation of Warner is valid as someone who works through adversity and pulls himself up by his bootstraps.  But maybe I misunderstood the question: if we are just asking, "Who is the best model citizen that happens to be employed as a pro athlete?", ability be damned, I'd say the reigning Walter Payton Man Of The Year (Madieu Williams of the 49ers) is a good choice.  I'm sure there are similar humanitarian awards for other pro sports leagues.

The truth is when Tebow thanks Jesus it makes people feel uncomfortable. That isn't Tebow's fault but those upset act like it is. If he was thanking Gatoraide and doing the Gatoraide boogie in times of "rally" or thanks then it would be a funny non isssue.  

My opinon is this. If people really didn't care about Jesus as much as they say they don't it would be a non issue. The fact is the mere mention of his name helps people to see thir own faults and that is uncomfortable to them.

/Thread. -EK

Larry Fitzgerald

A Jewish person (Hoodie) considers Tebow a great role model. I think that speaks volumes about him as a person.  I do realize I align with him as a Christian but seriously, who would you rather have your daughter date?

As was pointed out elsewhere, if Tebow was making it a point to repeatedly thank his (hypothetical) wife and proclaim how much he loves her and is devoted to her, the reaction would be pretty damned similar; see Doug Christie as an example.

That's because people understand that when you thank a sponsor or promote a product, you are doing so in a professional capacity (read: you are making money).

How is he "repeatedly" doing it? As per YOUR example, Warner did it just as much, which has been pointed out already. I already posted an example of a press conference in which he DOESN'T do what you're accusing him of. -EK

Ever heard of the "Tebow Rule"?

(http://c4.couponsherpa.com/images/blog/topicalhalloween/tim-tebow.jpg)
(http://www.palmbeachpost.com/multimedia/dynamic/00074/tebow-eye-black-psal_74255c.jpg)
(http://media.al.com/press-register-sports/photo/tim-tebow-facial-bible-versesjpg-91f82552594965f7_medium.jpg)
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/129964/EPHESIANS-TIM-TEBOW-BIBLE-EYE-BLACK.jpg)
Oh, yeah, and the whole Tebowing thing.

As far as Warner goes, um, yeah, he took the same heat for his Jesus praising.  So what?  But he wasn't being propped up because of his beliefs, which is more than I can say for Tebow.

That's great.  Say, if I show a clip in which Michael Vick does not drown a dog he was using for pitfighting, does that prove he's never done it?

A ha ha ha ha ha! Seriously? You posted pics of him in college to prove a point about how he is a role model as a professional? Tebowing? He's a bad role model because of Tebowing? Guess you must've REALLY hated the Ickey Shuffle. And I would rather not take up the whole thread with every press conference he doesn't do it in. If he's SOOOOOOOO pro-religion, I shouldn't have been able to find that one as the very first one I clicked on. What's really your beef with this guy? Did he steal your gf? Beat you up in middle school? I mean seriously, I get if you dislike his fans for their blind adoration or whatever you think of it as, but what did he ever do to you personally to cause such hate? -EK

Yes, I posted evidence of him publicly referencing his religion (repeatedly) to prove that he has publicly referenced his religion (repeatedly).  BTW, you know messages on eye black were already banned in the NFL, right?  So it's not like he's given up the ghost voluntarily on that one.

I mean, all you have to do is ask Tebow what he thinks on the subject of his publicly displayed faith (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2011/11/tim-tebow-responds-to-jake-plummers-comments-on-his-faith/1) (emphasis added):

    "If you're married, and you have a wife, and you really love your wife, is it good enough to only say to your wife 'I love her' the day you get married? Or should you tell her every single day when you wake up and every opportunity?

    "And that's how I feel about my relationship with Jesus Christ is that it is the most important thing in my life. So any time I get an opportunity to tell him that I love him or given an opportunity to shout him out on national TV, I'm gonna take that opportunity. And so I look at it as a relationship that I have with him that I want to give him the honor and glory anytime I have the opportunity. And then right after I give him the honor and glory, I always try to give my teammates the honor and glory.

    "And that's how it works because Christ comes first in my life, and then my family, and then my teammates. I respect Jake's opinion, and I really appreciate his compliment of calling me a winner. But I feel like anytime I get the opportunity to give the Lord some praise, he is due for it."

So don't take it up with me, take it up with him.

Sorry, explain to me again how that's wrong? How that makes him a poor role model? Among his peers who shoot themselves in the leg, rape 16 year old girls, get busted for drug possession, go to jail for killing someone while DUI, run dog-fighting rings, cheat on their spouses, and get popped for failed PED tests, you find HIS behavior regarding religion to be the most acrimonious? Am I the only one here who sees a problem with this equation? -EK

Nope. But you do know what they say about arguing with crazy people?  ;) :D

When did I say that makes him a poor role model?  I said I thought Kurt Warner (who is also a Soldier of Christ!) was a better role model and your first response was a novel.

I can't tell if you are rabidly defending Tebow because you are also on Team Jesus or if you are just another UF alum.  I specifically chose Warner as my example to ward off the former, so my guess is the latter.

I am neither. I'm an average Joe who can't understand the rabid attacking of a guy who basically seems like a good person, quality NFL player, a winner, and someone who has been successful at seemingly everything he does, yet he's still lambasted by jealous anti-fans. I mean really, it wasn't enough to take over the thread on his actual playing ability, so you infiltrate this thread and minimize/attack his character as well? Of all the people to criticize for character issues, you pick Tebow? Nonsense. -EK

Perhaps you should reference the title of this thread to gain some insight as to why I mentioned Tebow in my original post.

Once again:  I said I thought Warner was a better role model, and your response was to post an essay in Tebow's defense.  What, now it's not enough that he's a good role model, he has to be the best one?

That's an oxymoron. There's no correct answer. :)

I didn't say he was the best role model. Your argument for Warner was based mostly on his play- which was immaterial to this topic- and implied that somehow his display of faith was "better" (less in your face) than Tebow's, which is not true. I wasn't sticking up for Tebow, so much as I was correcting your error. If two guys have the same faith, display it in the same way as professionals, and their on the field play has been deemed "not part of the discussion," Warner isn't any more of a role model then Tebow is. You- not me- brought up the notion that somehow Tebow referencing his faith makes him less of a role model. Or were all of your posts about how much he speaks of it and your pics simply there as filler? -EK

There is a fallacy in this entire thread that Sports Athletes = Role Models.

They are not.

Tim Tebow could be slapping and punching and kicking his wife / girlfriend behind closed doors. Tiger Woods may be secretly donating millions to the VA hospital. Kurt Warner may be a devil-worshipper.

We just don't (and never will) know who these people really are in their private, "behind-closed-doors" lives. Actually, that's exactly how I like it and I'm just a random person posting on an internet message board. I can't imagine what it's like for athletes trying to live private lives away from their public life...

There is no such thing as the ideal sports role model - yet as a society it seems as if we're always trying to find one. Like, today, with Tim Tebow. Tommrow it will be Sam Sebow and next year it will be Vic Vebow.

Wrong; it was based on him not having outside factors influence the front office into giving him a chance.

...which you could tell when I said that "both of them are card-carrying members of Team Jesus"?


Nope.  I specifically said that even though both of them are in-your-face Christians, Warner didn't leverage that into a starting spot.  He pulled himself up by his bootstraps, instead of an army of zealots badgering his front office into giving him a chance.  What's more, he made his way into the NFL by grinding it out in the Arena League and working in the offseason to feed his family, as opposed to having opportunities handed to him on a silver platter.

So yeah, if you ask me who the better role model is (while totally ignoring on-the-field results), even when choosing between two Soldiers of Christ, I'm going to take the blue collar guy who worked his way up from the bottom instead of the high-profile first-round pick that had his roster spot and starting job simply bestowed upon him.

When did Tebow ever leverage anything? Again, you're holding fans' and media opinion against him. And talk about working your way up- Tebow was told he'd NEVER make it as an NFL QB. Even now he is still hearing it. Working past that to earn a spot on an NFL roster must be meaningless. Working your way past the second string guy in preseason, in spite of what SpiderDan claims, must be meaningless. In fact, everything that Tebow has accomplished when the "experts" said he couldn't was working his way up. Why does Warner get kudos for that but Tebow doesn't? This comes down- once again- to some untold hatred you harbor for him. It's just silly to keep arguing it. Every single point you make about Warner can be made for Tebow and vice versa. You can't argue that Warner is better. -EK

This speaks precisely to my point.

Like many option QBs, Tebow was told he would never make it as a QB in the NFL.  Many of them, like Antwaan Randle-El, Josh Cribbs, and Julian Edelman were forced to convert to other positions in order to play in the NFL.  However, because of his media stardom, Tebow could simply insist that he wasn't going to play any position but QB... and still get drafted in the first-round at that position.

Think about that:  why would someone who is expected NOT to make it as a QB be drafted in the first-round at that position?  It's hard to argue that Tebow has worked against all odds when he was drafted higher than than the majority of QBs in the league.

What "work" did he have to do to earn a spot?  I challenge you to name the last time that a first-round pick was cut before their second season.

He was second, then demoted to third, then half-promoted to a tie (?!) for second.

Really?  How many years did Tebow spend in the Arena League?  How many NFL teams did he have to try out for as a walk-on?

Give me a break.

Your arguments are really getting all over the place. What do other first round picks have to do with Tebow as a role model? Warner wasn't good enough to make the NFL to start with, so he had to play elsewhere, and that is a GREAT feel good story, but it has to do with morals/ethics/role modeling how? And it negates Tebow's position as a role model in what way? Actually, what does any of your rambling have to do with that? Tebow never said he refused to play another position. It's not his fault where he was drafted or what position he was expected to play. What- you expect a college QB to say, "nah coach I don't want to play my natural position." You're STILL holding things his coaches, media, and fans said/did against him. How is that his fault? You're just arguing to argue at this point. -EK

The world of sports could use a few more Tim Tebow's these days. I'm no bible thumper myself by any means and he does wear his religion a bit too much on his sleeve, but if that's the worst thing you can say about the guy, then he is doing pretty damn good if you ask me.

I joke about Tebow a lot, but I saw a behind the scenes thing where he was singing "My God is an awesome God" while he was mic'ed up and going onto the field.  That's just creepy, I'm sorry.

As far as the way he treats his teammates, his opposing players, fans, and children, he's perfect.  I envy that aspect of him.  He's a very nice, charitable guy.  I just get creeped out that he's so fully about Jesus with every waking breath and thought.  It wigs me out.  Even if I believed in Jesus, that would still creep me out.

It's like every point I make to you is in a vacuum.

The point is not what other first-round picks were doing.  The point is that as a first-round pick, Tebow was handed a roster spot from day 1.  And he was picked in the first round despite "everyone" saying that he would never be a successful QB in the NFL.  This doesn't sound anything remotely like earning your way on to a team.

When you say he wasn't good enough to make the NFL, do you mean that he was told he did not have the tools to be a successful QB in the NFL?  Because that sounds like what Tebow was told, yet he was drafted in the first round.

It doesn't have anything to do with morals or ethics (in which Tebow and Warner are both just fine).  It DOES have to do with role modeling in the sense that Warner had to work a lot harder than the big name football factory college players who were handed a roster spot.

Tebow started his NFL career on second base and you're giving him credit for hitting a double.

Again with this nonsense...

Please explain how saying that Warner is a BETTER role model means that Tebow's standing is negated?

I'm confused. Had he been singing "Enter Sandman" then he would have been a better person? There are quite a lot of people who only listen to Christian music.

Ideal sports role model?  If I can only pick one guy?   Maybe Johnny Bench.

My own personal past is closer to that of Babe Ruth.  I always admired Lou Gehrig's longevity. 

"See, while both of them are card-carrying members of Team Jesus, Warner didn't have an army of fans demanding that his coach allow him to play, and he never had anyone trying to excuse his subpar play by referencing his team's record. He earned his way on to an NFL team, he played flawlessly when he got his shot, and when he was cast to the curb with STL and NYG, he did it all over again at ARI."

This, like nearly ALL of your posts, implies that Tebow's "standing" should be negated. Because of fans demanding his coach play him, that somehow discounts him?

"And as far as his fans go, that's the point: that is an off-the-field factor that contributed to his success, not unlike if he happened to be Phil Simms' son or came from a rich family.
But he wasn't being propped up because of his beliefs, which is more than I can say for Tebow."

This post implies that Tebow's quality as a role-model should be negated because he's no better than someone who succeeded because of lineage.

"Say, if I show a clip in which Michael Vick does not drown a dog he was using for pitfighting, does that prove he's never done it?"

Really? Drawing some warped comparison to Vick- a felon- doesn't somehow imply an attack on Tebow's character?

"Nope. I specifically said that even though both of them are in-your-face Christians, Warner didn't leverage that into a starting spot. He pulled himself up by his bootstraps, instead of an army of zealots badgering his front office into giving him a chance. What's more, he made his way into the NFL by grinding it out in the Arena League and working in the offseason to feed his family, as opposed to having opportunities handed to him on a silver platter."

"So yeah, if you ask me who the better role model is (while totally ignoring on-the-field results), even when choosing between two Soldiers of Christ, I'm going to take the blue collar guy who worked his way up from the bottom instead of the high-profile first-round pick that had his roster spot and starting job simply bestowed upon him."

Again with the leverage thing. Tebow never leveraged ANYTHING. He specifically said he'd play whatever position his coaches asked of him to help the team. Implying someone's success was handed to them on a silver platter absolutely implies that their "standing" should be negated. If his success was handed to him on a silver platter, it clearly negates any work he did to get where he is at.


Really? How many years did Tebow spend in the Arena League? How many NFL teams did he have to try out for as a walk-on?

Yet another comment that implies because Warner didn't immediately make an impact, and took a harder road to get there he's somehow better. What, because Tebow didn't go to the Arena League, his value as a role model is somehow diminished?

EVERY post you've made does exactly what you just asked- you aren't content saying Warner is a better role model, you have to imply that he is better because Tebow is somehow flawed. Of course YOU don't see it that way, but almost every person in this thread- even Mike, who disagrees with me on pretty much EVERYTHING- has stated that you're off base on this, but WE are all wrong, and YOU must be right. One last thing- Warner wasn NOT, in fact, cut by the Giants. He CHOSE to void the last year of his contract and go to Arizona. Check your facts. Just like everything else in this thread, you're incorrect about that. -EK

I don't know if there is such a thing as an ideal sports role model,but I gotta say I think Aaron Rodgers is a class guy.He patiently waited his turn and kept his mouth shut during the Favre debacle in Green Bay,made the most of it when he got his shot(understatement),and I like the way he carries himself on and off the field.Rodgers is also a christian,and recently,when asked about all the Tebow craze and how he deals with his own personal faith,he referrenced the famous quote from St. Francis of Assisi,"preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words". nice.

EKnight, this may be hard to understand, but when you are saying that one thing is better than another, it is common to compare and contrast the two things you are evaluating.

So yes, every "attack" I have made on Tebow is for the purposes of showing that Warner has been a better role model, in the sense of working your way up from the bottom instead of having things handed to you.  If explaining all the advantages that Tebow has been given (and Warner has not) is upsetting to you... well, that's too bad.

Yeah, that's weird.

Every "sports role model" debate begins and ends with Pat Tillman. There are a lot of good guys in sports, Rodgers as you mentioned is one no doubt.

But "role model"...Pat Tillman. Until someone can give me another that surpasses him, he holds the #1 spot probably forever!

HM to Larry Fitzgerald

Tillman was an atheist, though, which automatically disqualifies him from many people's lists as a role model.

I wouldn't see it as an automatic disqualification.  It would make me look more closely at what a guy does in his spare time.  For example, does he give a lot of his money away to charity?  Does he do things in the community (not the nfl sponsored shit, but did he show up at a soup kitchen every week or drop a hundred grand on some poor widow's doorstep)  Things like that.

He gave up and walked away from millions of dollars and an easy life and gave his life fighting for this country overseas. What does one's religion have to do with being a role model? It wasn't like the guy was preaching the word of Satan to kids in school yard.

I don't care what his religion (or non religion) is, the guy is a role model.

It's not even that I don't like Tim Tebow.  Even as a devout Baptist and former devout Catholic and 12 years of religious studies I don't get the guy.

I'm not saying that he's not.  I'm just telling you that much of the country would think he's not.  Atheists are the country's least trusted demographic.

^^ This could potentially open up the biggest double standard argument ever

Considering we have only elected "people with religion" I find this statement truly hilarious.

Dave's statement is 100% true.  The gays, the Muslims, the immigrants... all of them poll higher than atheists (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/edgell/home/Strib%20Atheist%20Faith%20and%20Values.html).

Thus, it is not surprising that Pat Tillman's family was attacked by an Army officer for their lack of belief (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP4h4WwX0NI).  This is also the reason why many conservatives reject the idea that Tillman was an atheist (http://conservapedia.com/Essay:Pat_Tillman_was_not_an_atheist).

Being a geek is weird to most people too. Wierd is obviously a perspective thing. Listening to Christian music is no different than listening to classical or punk. It's a preference.

BTW ... I think the average person would say Tillman is a good role model. Regardless of his faith he chose to put money on hold to go and fight for this country.  If that's not someone to look up to in this country that was founded by men and women just like him then I don't understand the term "role model".

Anyone who is a pacifist, did not believe in the war, or who believes human life is sacred and looking up to people whose job it is to take that life would have a hard time with the Tillman argument. -EK

You should study up on Tillman a bit. He was also opposed to the war in Iraq.

As for him being a role model, I can see it. Without knowing the guy, I can also see him trying to reject that moniker. he just didn't seem like one who wanted the attention thrust upon him from what I have seen.

Phish ... would you please explain the "opposed to the war in Iraq" comment? I feel like I am missing something but I have to run and don't have time to go looking.

Basically, he joined the armed forces as a response to 9/11 and was in favor of the invasion of Afghanistan. Once he was in, the US also invaded Iraq where he was shipped initially. He had written and commented many times that he thought the Iraq war was illegal. Some think his death was murder rather than accidental friendly fire because of this (or some other unknown reason). He was after all their poster boy and he was speaking out (as best he could while being in the military) against their latest invasion.

I know he was "against the war," and I didn't really want to get into this whole thing because I don't want to offend people, but I can't think of someone as a role model who is opposed to war, but joins his country's armed forces and travels overseas to kill others. What did he think, they were sending him there to plant daisies? Taking another's life is the ultimate "wrong" in my opinion. Voluntarily joining a group that does just that doesn't make someone a hero to me. And please don't give me the whole "eye for an eye" thing. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. -EK

So we have two nominees: one is retired, one is dead.  My personal favorite is Jessie Owens. 

But still amoung active sports players.......Tim seems to be the best of the lot. 

You are twisting things. He joined to fight in Afghanistan, a war he supported. Before he ever got there, we invaded a second country and entered a war he did not agree with. He knew exactly why he was going, but they threw a curve ball and started what many considered an unjust war.

I'm not twisting anything. I have an absolute belief that taking another life is wrong, and I will never tell my children- "THAT guy is someone to look up to," if I know he went somewhere to do just that. This is not a argument you can win. It's my belief. Stop now. -EK

So then, if I have an absolute belief that women should have the right to legally available abortions, I can summarily dismiss Tebow as a role model, right?

I think that Tebow is a fantastic role model.  He's too outwardly religious, in my opinion, and that is something that I, personally, consider a flaw, but it doesn't disqualify him.  He's so outstanding in every other aspect, in terms of how I want people to act that I have total respect for the guy.

None of us are perfect.  If your biggest noticible flaw is that you're too God-squad, I can look past it.  It's ultimately the things that you do that define you (I sound like Alfred from Batman), and while I don't agree with him on many views that are colored by religion, the aspects of his life that he shines a light on are pretty admirable.

Now you really are twisting things. You asked if Tillman thought he was going to pick daisies. I responded and even quoted you on that and explained how he was able to join the military but be against the Iraq war. The you somehow turned it into the idea that I am commenting on your beliefs. No wonder you end up in so many arguments here. Your comprehension is lacking.

The daisies thing was clearly sarcasm. Explain to me who in his right mind joins the military without the belief he will be trained to kill someone. What part of that is lacking comprehension? To be OK with invading one land and killing its people but not others doesn't make his behavior something I'm ok with. -EK

^ I think that the thought is that you're killing someone to prevent the death and suffering of many more in the long run.  It may be flawed, but it's the logic behind it.

Yeah, I totally get that. I just don't agree. -EK

^^ I can see that, however you might be taking a hard line stance when it's a much grayer issue.  Would you kill someone who was trying to kill multiple people in your family?  I certainly would.  I wouldn't say that I'm any less admirable because of it.

I see that it's not the same as war, but its logic is on the same spectrum.

Side note:

I don't think he's the ideal guy in sports, necessarily, but props to Metta World Peach (formerly Ron Artest).  He got quite a reputation, but has turned into quite a role model.  While guys like Tebow are great for reaching some, not all can relate to him.  Artest is coming from a different place, but does a lot for his community, especially kids who are at risk of going down the wrong path.  Considering that he's had his own struggles, I find it admirable that he was able to reverse-field with his life.

No. I wouldn't. Taking a life is wrong. The circumstance doesn't change that for me. -EK

^ Fair enough.  I guess that ends this debate.

I was watching SportsCenter on Sunday (Maybe NFL Countdown) and there was a story about Braylon Edwards and a scholarship he set up his rookie year - he picked 100 8th graders who had applied and if they graduated with XXX GPA, XX Service Hours etc. they would get $10,000 for college.

He was a nice story with the now college kids thanking him (they said 78 of the 100 made the requirements). He wants to do it again this year for 8th graders.

Wow. That's a pretty hard-line position you're holding on to. I don't know if that's admirable or sick, especially when it comes to your family. But, that pretty much does end that debate y'all were having.

I'm not trying to debate you on this at all. I'm just throwing out my two cents here. I cannot understand how anyone would take this position. I understand it is yours to have, I just could not fathom excluding the possibility of killing in order to save my own family.

They are innumerable ways to incapacitate a person. Seeing the world in such black and white terms as "kill or be killed" is lunacy. It is, in fact, possible to defend yourself and your loved ones without killing another person. I don't understand not being able to see that. It is this kind of extremist thinking that leads to most of the cruelty and harshness in the world. Whatever means you would use to kill an attacker can also be used to subdue him/her. Believing the only option is to kill the person is not a particularly healthy point of view. -EK

EKnight, while I won't debate your opinion on the perceived necessity of killing, I'll just say this:  if you believe that it was immoral for Americans to bear arms against Germany and Japan in WW2 (in what was necessarily a kill-or-be-killed scenario, open war) then you are in the extreme minority of the American population, and your perspective of Tillman as a role model reflects that.

The government of Afghanistan openly allowed a known terrorist group to set up camps within its borders to train believers to attack western countries and their allies. This group attacked us and we wanted the leadership extradited to us for trial. They said no, so we attacked both the terrorist group and the government backing them for the 9/11 attacks.
This is why Tillman was okay with going to Afghanistan( where he was killed/murdered? by friendly fire) but thought the war in Iraq was total bullshit and a lie.
Also Tillman enlisted, completed Basic Training and RIP and was stationed at Ft Lewis a year before we went to Iraq. So he assumed he would be going to Afghanistan and not Iraq as we already had troops in Afghanistan.
Facts are your friend.

If you have training, sure. But for the majority of people in the world who have no martial or combat training, when faced with the possibility of serious injury or death to themselves or their family, they have two choice: Fight or Flight.
This is why we as a civilized society, along with many other countries, have established a clearly defined legal thresh-hold for instances such as this.
Also while there are many ways to incapacitate a person, they are not always effective in every scenario, and you usually only get one shot. If it does not work, then you may very well find yourself locked up with an angry person in a fight to the death.
Your stance on this issue makes me laugh, and it can be summed up in a great quote by Nietzsche:
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
 

So let me get this straight,someone breaks into your home knowing full well that you and your family are in there asleep(which would lead me to believe that person is looking to do more than steal something),and you would only "incapacitate" him???
Why...........so he can go to prison for a few years,get all pumped up with weights,make some new even nastier friends and then get out and come hunt you down for putting him there? I don't think so.
I consider myself a fairly devout Roman Catholic,I attend mass every Sunday,but faced with the scenario I mentioned above,Mr. intruder would meet Mr. 9mm. or Mr. mossberg,whichever I could get my hands on first.And if he were lucky enough to be only incapacitated,it would be because I was half asleep and my aim was off.

BTW,when you join any branch of the service,you take an oath to defend this country and to do your duty.You can not like or disagree with policy all you want,but in the end,you go where you are sent and do your job,which does mean having to kill people that are trying to kill you.

Spider- I don't know how much of a minority I'm in, but I do know this: the extremist stance taken by the US in WWII led to the death of over 200 THOUSAND innocent men, women, and children in an act so horrific no country has used the technology since then.

BSmooth- apparently you missed the powerlifting thread. Calling me a weakling shows that you're not only blind but too insecure to stick to the topic at hand and once again (didn't you learn anything in the other thread when your post was deleted?) resort to attacking me as a person. I find it more weak your clear lack of emotional control.

As for the rest of you, I don't know what to tell you. I believe taking a life is wrong. There's nothing you can say that will change that. Ever. I don't know why that seems to piss some of you off so much, but you don't see me passing judgement on any of you for believing what you want. Stop wasting your time. I'm 37 years old; I've likely seen and done more in my life than many of you, and if you think that somehow your ranting on the Internet is going to change my beliefs that took 37 years to develop, you're acting incredibly self-important. -EK

So then, to be ideologically consistent, I presume that you are opposed to the American colonists' use of deadly force to obtain independence from Britain, as well as the Union's use of deadly force to prevent the secession of the South and the continuation of slavery.

I am also forced to wonder: if, in your amazing THIRTY-SEVEN years of life, you've already learned and experienced so much that your beliefs are incapable of being swayed by mere Internet ranting, why are you wasting your time on Internet message boards?  Is it solely so that you may impart your wisdom on the rest of us?

The only thing missing from your post is a clip of Mike Gundy screaming, "I'm a MAN!  I'm FORTY!"

Please move all justification of murder talk to the appropriate thread in off-topic.  We're getting off of Tim Tebow, here.

With respect, the topic is about role models, not just Tim Tebow.  And while you can argue that EKnight's personal belief system is not strictly topical, the discussion of whether or not Pat Tillman should be disqualified as a role model because of his military service is as relevant as any other point in this thread.

The idea that a soldier who kills an enemy combatant* in a time of war should not be considered a role model would disqualify many, if not most, of the recipients of the United States' highest honors.  Furthermore, to continue this logic, generals and commanders-in-chief who order their armies to engage (and kill) the enemy should be held equally responsible from an ethical standpoint.  Such a position would disqualify people such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln from consideration as "role models."

This position is, to put it mildly, an extreme outlier in the American consciousness.

*notwithstanding the argument of whether or not persons are properly classified as "enemy combatants," EKnight's position is that it is wrong to take the life of even an accurately classified enemy combatant.

Haha, you are going to talk about insecurity, and then talk about your power lifting. Power lifting means you are strong physically. There are other definitions of being weak. The quotation is very clear in its meaning. People who think they are good because they never resort to using violence ever( hence no claws) are fools. Just because this meaning has eluded you, does not make it a person attack. You do not even see the hypocrisy in your stance that you live in a country surrounded by men and women who daily go to work to prevent you from having to worry about having to kill someone, yet you think they are morally wrong while at the same time enjoying the fruits of their labors. Here is another of my favorite quotes that applies to you too: " "Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night
because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
I also notice you never touched the rest of that whole post about Tillman and your factual errors, nor where I talked about people who have training( do not know if this applies to you or not) such as Maine does and the ability to resolve potential hostile situations with less than lethal solutions as opposed to the average person who does not have any training or the desire to learn how to protect themselves and loved ones( no claws again). So that when presented with a hostile situation tend to use maximum force to try and survive.
What is funny is that your belief that no life should be taken is a maxim that the majority of society has lived with for thousands of years. But they have also managed to come to the realization that while this is a noble ideas, there comes a time where a life needs to be taken for the long term health of the whole society.

Not really, it just means they have "popcorn muscles." Just like with horses, their are "show horses" and "work horses". Power lifters are "show horses."



I agree with this, the over the top Jesus stuff wigs me out a bit. But as I said, if that's the worst thing about him, he is doing pretty damn good and an OK guy and very good role model.

I believe "popcorn muscles" refers to the opposite: bodybuilders with huge "show" muscles that aren't actually strong.  In your horse analogy, bodybuilders would be the show horses, while powerlifters would be work horses (or, more accurately, race horses, as work horses do actual productive work).

It seems contradictory to refer to someone actually using their muscles as having them for "show."  And it bears mentioning that many powerlifters aren't much to look at.

You are right. I got that backwards. People with those over the top kind of muscles whether power lifters or bodybuilders  freak me out.  Although aren't most powerlifters just big heavyset/fat guys with giant arms? Who knows. Something not wired right about those people to want to look like that. I paint with them one broad stroke, they are all the same to me...lol

While it was definately a horrific act, it also saved the lives of a lot of Japanese soldiers. Japan was completely ready to fight till the death of every last Japanese soldier until the US dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Only then did the Japanese surrender and it still took a month before Japan's soldiers finally quit fighting.

It was a horrific act done in desperation to end a brutal, bloody and costly war. Maybe the ends didn't justify the means and then again maybe the reason there hasn't been another nuclear attack is because of the first 2.

I don't want to get too far into a WW2 discussion, but the fact that it was even necessary to drop the second bomb on Nagasaki pretty much proves that Hiroshima was not excessive.  The Allies killed over 100,000 people at Hiroshima in an instant, and the Japanese simply shrugged it off.

People always bring up the atomic bomb, yet they never mention the firebombing of either Dresden or Tokyo.