The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Voted into the Pro Bowl again. Just became only the third Dolphin receiver ever to have back-to-back 1000 yard seasons (the other three guys only did that once), is within 100 yards of having the 4th best receiving yardage total in Dolphins' history, leads the NFL in passes of 25+ yards with 16 (ahead of Fitz, Cruz, Smith, Green, and Calvin Johnson), is 9th overall in receptions, and has doubled his TD production from last year (and is ahead of his career average), and is within one or two TD's of guys like Vincent Jackson, Holmes, Mike Wallace, Green, and White. He is now tied for second in dropped passes, which says a lot considering that he was out in front of everyone two months ago. IMO, he has shown that he is a number one receiver this season. -EK

^ I begrudglingly agree.  I was VERY critical of Marshall early.  He does drop too many balls, but has improved, and has contributed to a good stretch at the end of the season.  I have reversed my opinion of him and feel that he's worthy of keeping, despite the cost.

IMO, the MOST frustrating thing about the season is that for the first time in franchise history, we have a 1000 yard receiver and a 1000 yard rusher and won 5 games. How does that happen??? -EK

Watching games, It doesn't appear that he has had that kind of season.

But looking at numbers, its interesting that he is near the top in the league.

Because they haven't been situationally effective.  Brandon Marshall couldn't score TDs...only move the ball at midfield.  Bush turned it with big chunks of yards, but we can't convert 3rd or 4th and 1.

Also, I don't think our coaching staff got the most out of these players when it mattered most.

A good offensive weapon but if Indy or St Louis want him in a package to move up to get Andrew Luck, then he would be expendable.  Good receivers can be had in the later rounds of the draft.

I think that would be a mistake. Based on what Miami did in the second half of the season, and based on his play trading Marshall would be a bad idea for three reasons. First, I don't think many people realize how good he was the second half of the year. He averaged 93 yards a game over the past 8, had 5 TD's and fewer drops than Bess. Second, while good receivers may be had in later rounds, 6'4" 230 pound Pro Bowl receivers that have that kind of production are few and far between, even in the first round. Lastly, and I'll happily eat my words whenif I'm wrong, but I am still not convinced that any ONE player coming out of college- especially a QB- can possibly live up to the hype that Luck is getting, or even be as good as he is projected to be. ESPN has run numerous pieces on previously highly-touted first-round QB's and at best it's a 50/50 gamble. There's no way I give away several picks, PLUS a Brandon Marshall to get a guy who may be the next Manning, but also may be the next Leaf. Hasn't anybody learned a thing from the Saints and Vikings doing this?? If Miami could do it for one or two picks (a la Eli), maybe it' a different story, but from what I'm reading that will NEVER happen. Adam Schefter is one of many people with the following opinion on his trade value: "that pick would be worth, roughly worth, three (first-round picks) and two (second-rounders), maybe four first-round picks."  -EK

You gotta get this out of your head.  I see you suggest this over and over for different people who are underperformind/injured/headcases.  You can't trade people for Superstars that aren't at the top of their game.  Brandon Marshall isn't a world-beater and he's getting world-beater money.  You trade high -- not low.

 I know I am in the minority opinion here, and some can believe what they want and love the guy to death. But I don't see it with him. His number of receptions have been in decline for 4 years now. 76 receptions and 6 TD's is NOT a great year. While some others might have fewer receptions they have more TD's and produce when it matters. He has 1100+ yards,...ok. In this pass-happy league that isn't so special as it used to be. Out of the Top 15 WR's his YAC is the lowest among that group this year.  And I am NOT giving him credit for "doubling" his touchdown production when he had all of 3 TD's last year. Please. For what he is getting paid he should have doubled it, no extra credit for that.

And the dropped passes can't be brushed aside, he cost us at least 1-3 wins alone. The Browns game being the perfect example of one where if he makes a easy catch in the endzone, the Dolphins win without a doubt. And I can make a case where 2 other games Miami could have won if he holds onto an easy touchdown pass. But lets not debate that for the 10,000,000th time. Being voted as a back-up to the Pro Bowl doesn't change the fact the guy is getting paid like a #1 WR but doesn't perform like one.

This guy is still one infraction away from a 3rd strike and a year suspension, if Miami can move him and unload his contract to get a franchise QB....you do it! It's not even up for debate. This guy hasn't changed one bit being in Miami, in fights with his girlfriend where he is getting stabbed, being dragged to a police station cause he is fighting with cab drivers, ripping up subpoena's in the court house in front of the DA, punching Vontae Davis in the lockeroom. The outlandish comments about wanting to be thrown out of games then in the game catching a pass with a clear path to the endzone and running out of bounds for no reason. It never ends with him. If Miami can unload him as part of a package to  land Luck or a franchise QB, its not even debatable you do it.

I don't see it with him. 76 catches and 6 touchdowns isn't a special year. Factor in the countless drops and I really just don't see it. For what Marshall is getting paid, 76 balls and 6 TD's....please!! When I list the #1 WR's in this league, Marshall isn't anywhere near the Top 10 when you factor EVERYTHING in.

Give me (Wallace, Calvin, Andre, Fitz, Nicks, Dez, Roddy, Jennings, Vincent Jackson, Maclin) any day of the week over Brandon and that's off the top of my head. If I sat down and put in time I am sure I could come up with a few more. And there are a few #2 WR's on teams that I would take over Brandon at this stage as well.

Amazing. In your list of guys who are better "any day of the week," you included several with comparable or worse stats than Marshall. Other than your obvious bias against him, how does that work? In this "pass happy" league, where you discount the number of receptions Marshall has, you overlooked the following: Wallace has fewer receptions, and a whopping 18 more yards. Andre is hurt, so there's no telling what he may have done, but given the reliance on the run in Houston, it's hard to say if he would have put up numbers similar to previous years. Johnson is a no-brainer. Nicks has fewer reception, fewer yards, and the same number of TD's with a MUCH better QB. Dez was hurt for a portion of the year, but when he DID play, his numbers were worse than Marshall's in terms of receptions and yards. Jennings? Really? Best offense in the league and he hasn't cracked 1000 yards yet. I know he missed two games, but his yard per game average is WORSE than Marshall's. Jackson had 58 receptions. 56? And you are griping about Marshall's 76? Maclin didn't even put up the best numbers on his own team, so I have no clue where that one came from. He's got fewer receptions (by 20+), fewer yards (by like 400), and even fewer TD's. Then there's Roddy White. For someone so hung up on dropped balls, this is the ultimate hypocrisy. Roddy leads the league in drops and has a whopping 80 yards more receiving than Marshall does. In fact, almost every guy on your list of "any day of the week" (except Calvin) only has fewer yards or receptions and only about 2 more TD's than Marshall this year.

Pro Bowler, comparable numbers to most of your list of elites, 5th (maybe 4th? we'll see) best receiving yardage in team history, and you want to trade him? Good God I'm glad you voice your opinion here, and have no actual say-so in what the team does. You want to unload everybody except Dansby and Burnett, even though the defense can't stop anybody this year! -EK

I am biased but you aren't? LOL...uh, ok. What are you Marshall's agent? Marriage Counselor? Therapist? Shrink? Director of his crappy documentary? You sniff his jock so bad you need to put gold bond powder on your nose to get rid of the jock itch.

And I have said get rid of everyone except Dansby and Burnett?? Sure about that?!  ::) Let's see....I did proclaim last years draft class as the best Fins draft class in a long time. I have said our future o-line might already be on our roster and we don't need to add anyone from the outside. I have said we can lose Langford because we have the depth to replace him in house. I have praised Bush and called Daniel Thomas a young Mendenhall. If you read what I write instead of looking to attack me on every little thing you might see what I actually say and its not all negative like you would want to believe.

If you want to hold the opinion that ONLY Calvin Johnson is better than Brandon Marshall....go for it. But few people (if any) will agree with you. And its funny the ONLY stats you use are receptions and yards, and not Touchdowns and YAC where every WR you mention beat Marshall this year and in past years. And you have to question if Andre Johnson is a better player than Marshall....ha.

You clearly disagree and I clearly stated I have the minority opinion around here, no need to get your panties in a wad over it. You have known my stance on Brandon Marshall for months, not sure why you flipped out on it. Did you think I was going to do a 180 based on being voted as a back-up to the pro bowl? 76 catches, 6 TD's....not a great year for a WR. Sorry. isn't!

P.S....being glad I don't make decisions. You are the one who thinks Jerome Simpson and his 40 receptions is a "stud" WR. Thinks Marc Sanchez is having a great year. And thinks Tebow is the 2nd coming of chr...Elw...well just the 2nd coming! lol

When did I ever say ONLY Calvin was better? I said ONLY Calvin on that ridiculous list you presented of guys who are supposed to be so much better anyone would take them so readily over Marshall. I have known your stance, and apparently, even when you are wrong about something, you don't change it. Even Dave, who has been pretty critical of Marshall, admitted he was wrong, but I forgot, you lack that phrase in your vocabulary.

Yes, I absolutely think Simpson is a stud. Give him time, AS I ALREADY SAID. Sanchez? YOU made the comment he is having his worst year. Care to make sense out of that? Regarding Tebow, all I've ever said is that he wins and he's better than what they had. I have repeatedly stated he's around 10th in the league, and only there because a few guys ahead of him are injured. Way to put words in my mouth though. Stay classy Mike. -EK

Simpson is a stud.....but "give him time" LOL LOL! You can't make this stuff up!

Sanchez Year 1: AFC Champ Game
Sanchez Year 2: AFC Champ Game
Sanchez Year 3: NO PLAYOFFS!

Happy New Year EK!

How does his team's previous playoff run have anything to do with his current regular season performance? Anyone on the planet will tell you- since you obviously missed it- that he stunk in the regular season both years, and caught lightning in a bottle once the playoffs started. Highest TD total, highest QB rating, highest completion %, highest yardage total, highest rushing TD total of his career, but it's his worst year?? Hey, Maurice Jones-Drew and L. McCoy are leading the league in rushing, but their teams are not making the playoffs either. Guess it's THEIR worst year as well, right? You're right, you CAN'T make this stuff up. -EK

MikeO, since you claimed that Jason Allen being cut "proved" that you were right about him sucking, I presume that Brandon Marshall making the Pro Bowl "proves" that you were wrong about him sucking?

If not, what would it take for you to be proven wrong?  Consecutive Pro Bowls?  All-Pro?  MVP?

No, because someone has to go to this glorified popularity contest and with Andre Johnson being injured and no Peyton Manning to give  Reggie Wayne a legit shot, it was a down year in the AFC for WR's. I'm not saying Marshall is god awful, but he didn't have a special year. 76 balls and 6 TD's isn't great. It's a solid year. Factor in the drops and its nothing special to be honest.

Yes, an ALL PRO year at WR for the Dolphins would make me say I was wrong. 1 All Pro year in Miami. Just one! UNO! 1. That's all.

So all he has to do is be the single best WR in the league to earn his paycheck?  Well, no, that's incorrect... he could drop as low as second-best in the league to satisfy you.  Third, however, means he is a bust.

You have a serious issue with expectations management.  If Marshall only makes the Pro Bowl (only the Pro Bowl!) every year going forward, he will have more than justified his acquisition and contract.

These kind of fan expectations are insane.  Jake Long makes the Pro Bowl literally every year in Miami, makes an All-Pro, and you still have people saying he was a bad pick.  What the hell can you expect from a player?

You didn't catch the thread with Mike saying he should be traded too?


-EK

Disclaimer:  I'm not attacking Mike-O


That said, he makes a lot of valid points most times.  However, his views on Jake Long and Brandon Marshall and what he expects from them and seemingly "what have you done for me lately" attitude leaves me scratching my head sometimes.

Oh, and one more thing:

Are you actually claiming that because Wayne didn't have a superstar QB throwing him the ball, his failure to make the Pro Bowl doesn't count?

Do you realize how absurd that sounds when you are currently bashing Marshall for failing to reach the Pro Bowl with Chad Henne and barely making it to the Pro Bowl with Matt Moore?  While you insist that Marshall must make the All-Pro team with the current stable of Dolphin QBs in order to justify his salary?

Give me a break.

It's a what have you done for me lately league, nobody cares about what a player has done 3 years ago.

This is also a "salary cap" league and those 2 guys are some of the highest paid at their positions, the bar is raised a little higher for them because they take up so much of our salary cap. If they can't perform at a high level and justify their contract, we can get "similar" play a lot cheaper from someone else.

My comment on Jake is, get rid of him a year too early rather than a year too late OR be careful and don't lock him up long-term because he has the career path of Tony Boselli it looks like. The man is the walking wounded!!!! And his level of play slipped this year as well, the injuries are clearly taking its toll.

AND FOR THE RECORD: I said if it helps Miami move up in the draft to get a QB I said trade Jake. I'm not sitting here saying we should trade him for a 4th or 5th. I said if we can move up in the draft and get a franchise QB, yeah I would move him as part of a package.

I am just saying 76 receptions and 6 TD's isn't a "special" year and he isn't the 2nd best WR in the league behind ONLY Calvin Johnson as someone is claiming, that's the absurd part. It's a good year by Marshall, but it ain't anything special. He has dropped a ton of TD's, lost us games which when you factor in with only 76 receptions and the 6 TD's makes the year nothing to write home about.

It's a down year for AFC WR's. And hate to break it to ya, Henne/Moore as much as they suck look like hall of famers compared to Painter.

Because we should have taken a Franchise QB in Matt Ryan!!! That's why!! We haven't had a decent QB since the Marino years. Matt Ryan was there for Miami and they passed on him.

You win in this league because of QB's!! That's why it will FOREVER be a bad pack! Jake Long can go to Canton when he retires, it's still a bad pick. Saying its a bad pick isn't a knock on Long, its a knock on the front office for not realizing you don't win Super Bowls because of left tackles. You win because of QB's.

First off, the pro bowl is a joke. Half the players voted in don't go. Most of it is based on reputation and is a popularity contest. I don't get all excited because a guy was voted in a as a backup to the pro bowl. Just means he his a backup WR taking only half the league into account. It means nothing. Literally nothing.

Second, if you are paid like a Top 2 or 3 WR, then expecting numbers like a Top 2 or 3 WR isn't absurd.

Third, Since Marshall has been in Miami he has led the league in drops, Miami's offense finished near the bottom of the league last year and is in the bottom 3rd of the league this year. We could have done that without him is the point. I don't think he has earned his contract since being in Miami. Obviously you disagree.  Marshall has been a headache off the field and on the field, nothing special at all

1. No one ever claimed that he was 2nd in the league to Calvin Johnson.

You made an outlandish list of guys "better" than Marshall; I claimed he was as good or better than them.
2.
Wow, all kinds of things wrong here. How can "most of it" be based on popularity, when 2/3 of the votes (IE, "most of it") comes from the players and coaches- the same players and coaches who regularly vote players like Romo, Vick, and TO as "overrated," yet they still make the Pro Bowl? That's based on their play, not their popularity or likeability.

"Like a top 2 or 3 receiver." So, until he becomes the third best receiver in the league, he's not good enough??

Your fixation on drops is comical. First you list a guy as "better" who has dropped more balls, then you fail to acknowledge that Brandon is targeted far more than many guys in the league. Stats from last year show that, yes, he is in the bottom half of the league, but in pretty good company (dropping 13.13% of what's thrown to him), ahead of Steve Johnson (13.68%), Miles Austin (13.75%), Jordy Nelson (14.29%), Steve Breaston (14.55%), Pierre Garcon (15.29%), Steve L. Smith (17.86%), and DeSean Jackson (19.67%). Even Wes Welker dropped 13.08%- just about the same as Marshall.

Even if you were correct about his drops causing some sort of team disaster, it's STILL illogical to make an issue out of this. He dropped a ton of balls in Denver (either led the league or was second across the time he was there), so Miami knew what they were getting when they signed him. You can't go back now and fault a guy for being exactly who he was when we got him. I never heard one word from anyone when Miami siged Marshall that he was a bad investment or he had slippery hands. Everyone was all, "We got a number one receiver! Good job!" Well, it's BS to change your tune now to, "We got a guy who drops a lot of balls, just like we knew he was going to, so shame on him for not changing."

3.   Really? what off the field actions have hurt the team? He got stabbed by his wife? Did that cause Thomas to pull a hammie? Did it blow out Henne's shoulder or allow the defense to get smoked by New England in week one? Or when he talked about getting tossed against the Jets. Maybe that's what you meant. Let's see...109 receiving yards that game, didn't get tossed, was the only player who showed up on offense OR defense. Did that cause some sort of team meltdown? How, exactly, have his off the field "issues" you keep mentioning caused problems for anyone but you? And on the field, he's "nothing special at all"? In the history of the team with as many great seasons as Clayton and Duper had, he's already 5th on the list of all time single season receiving yards with a shot at 4th, and is only the fourth guy EVER to post back to back 1000 yards seasons for the team. That goes beyond Pro Bowls or drops or anything you're going to argue about.

You love to go on and on when you think you're right. The entire board (and the NFL as a whole who voted him in the Pro Bowl) all say you're mistaken. How about show some humility and admit when you're wrong?

Still awaiting your lame justification to this one:


-EK

He just LOVES to get under people's skin. What's even more amusing is when he does, he gets into a pissing match with them and then proceeds to call them out for taking the thread off track.  This IS MikeO.  Gotta love 'em (at least until the admins can fix the "ignore" functionality). :)

if you paired any of those "stud" receivers with what miami has trotted out in terms of qb play, their numbers would drop significantly.

moore is > than henne, hence the improvement in marshall's numbers in the second half of the season.

improve the qb even more (no pun intended), and marshall's numbers will continue to go up.

Brandon Marshal is the shit and I hope he smokes Revis all damn day on Sunday!

I am damn glad to have the guy on our team.  He has had to play under some fairly shitty circumstances (bad QB play and O-line issues) and I am impressed that he seems to have really matured.  Now there is always a chance he could regress at some point but so far, so good.

On top of that, we should start a thread for my new man love for Bush.  His hurdle over that guy in New England was SICK!  I love having actual playmakers on our team for a change and you won't hear me bitch about it.  It blows my mind how people can complain about the best players on your team.  If you want to complain, complain about how Misi isn't living up to his 2nd round draft status or something.  Better yet, complain about someone who shouldn't be on the team. 

The first sentence of my post was...."i know I am in the minority opinion here".....i came out stating I didn't expect many if anyone to agree with me. I wasn't looking to change anyone's mind. I just stated my opinion, I knew most if not everyone would disagree and I was and am fine with it.   ::)

You could have written that you just disagree with me and saved yourself a lot of time. Wrote a lot there and I ain't gonna break it down point by point, sorry.  You ain't changing my mind. I ain't changing yours. Deal with it!

I'm sorry, was that somehow suppose to dispute my theory that you enjoy getting under people's skin? Because it sounds an awful lot like you're agreeing with me. :)

LOL, when I say up front I know I am alone on this opinion most likely, I don't expect someone (who I won't name) to flip out when I post it. I wasn't trying to convert anyone.  I stated up front what I was writing I was probably alone on. I just stated my piece in the terms of the discussion.  And I'm not saying stuff for the sake of getting a reaction, I have been pretty consistent on Brandon for a over a year now. Nobody should have been shocked by my opinion on him.

^^ It's all good MikeO. It's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

ha ha ha!

Imagine what Marshall might have done tonight if he really WAS a good reciever, and not worse than some second stringers, huh? -EK

Imagine what he could've done all season if he had elite receivers around him and a QB who could get him the ball.   ::)

Marshall after the game ..."Since Jay Cutler, I've had a few different quarterbacks. Being in the Pro Bowl, you have these elite quarterbacks you're playing with"

I am sure Matt Moore is sitting home going WTF! ha ha ha

I noticed that, too.

Matt Moore should get used to getting overlooked though, if he hasn't already.

Marshall's performance was good news for those that wish to land Peyton Manning.  This team has weapons.

Yeah, I agree. Hey did you see that Peter King report last night. Pretty much King said Gil Brandt who is a close family friend to the Manning's  believes Peyton may have played his last game. King went on to say Manning is really struggling to get healthy.

It would be a damn shame if he is forced to retire off this injury.

Marshall had a great game. Would have been nice to see that effort more often. But, I forget that it wasn't his fault. Moore shouldn't be anymore surprised by Marshall's statement. Anymore than we should be. This is the same guy who threw a tantrum to get out of Denver.

Its just going to be funny when Peyton retires and Flynn signs somewhere else. Because the same QB that he threw under the bus, was the same QB that got him to the Pro Bowl.

Marshall probably benefitted from the name factor on getting into the pro bowl as much as his performances over the season. Most people just vote for the names they recognise.

If Matt Moore believes that he's just as good as the QBs that were throwing Marshall the ball on Sunday, he should go out and prove it.

Marshall saying that he plays better when he has the elite QBs of the league throwing him the ball is a non-statement.  It would be one thing if someone like, say, Sanchez was his QB; someone whose front office insists that he has elite potential and is doing what they can to project that image.  Moore is not that QB.

All I know is he dropped AT LEAST 5 or 6 TD's this season during games that could have been game changers or got us back in the game.

He can talk all he wants on the sideline during the National Flag-Football League Pro Bowl and say what a great QB can do and knows where to put it.

We learned at an early age of football, if your hands touch, you should have caught it.  don't pass the buck Brandon, own up to it and make the plays when you need to.

At the end of the day:

- Marshall did a lot of talking about how great the Cutler days were and how much he misses having a great QB
- he was roundly criticized for making such statements
- when given an opportunity to play with quality QBs, he outshined every other WR in the league (for that game)

Looks to me like he basically showed he was right.

^^This. Marshall wasn't the only one dropping passes in Miami. Bess dropped 6 as well, and he wasn't targeted nearly as often as Marshall. Makes you wonder how much really is Brandon, and how much is not. Overall, Miami was 14th highest in the league in drops. -EK

It's been well established by Marshall that he thinks the play should be "Marshall you go deep and I'll just throw it up and you catch it."  Well that's what the Pro Bowl has devolved into. If the games on Sunday's during the regular season looked like that, then maybe he'd be on to something, unfortunately on game days there some things like double coverage and a pass rush that changes things.

I'm happy that Brandon got a chance to shine, but unfortunately the game doesn't count and it only happens once a year. That's not exactly what he gets paid for.

+1 Shuts the coffin door and hits the nail on the head.

As a receiver, the "pass rush" (and a QB's ability, or inability, to get the ball to him) is not something that is under Marshall's control.

Marshall was double-covered on at least one of those TDs, so I'm not sure where you're going on that.

The pass rush is not in his control. However, if a QB is being hit before his 3rd step it kinda takes away the ability to get a guy the ball 40 yds downfield. When QB drops the ball where only his receiver can get it & he drops it. Or he catches a ball only to run out of bounds with no one around him. Those are things, that he can control.  Brandon is a great talent, but talent can't substitute for execution.

Its a team sport, "Leon" Marshall.

There are teams with much, much worse offensive lines than Miami's.  Quite a few, actually.

That's a fair point.  I would argue that when you have mediocre performance at the QB position, it magnifies every mistake Marshall makes (because there are much fewer opportunities).

Exactly, it's under the control of the offensive coordinator who realizes that his job is a little tougher than drawing in the sand and saying "Marshall you go deep and Moore will throw it to you."

You're not suggesting that the Pro-Bowl looked ANYTHING even remotely similar to a regular season game are you?  The rules are very specific in the Pro-Bowl. No blitzing. No hitting the QB. No specialized defense. ETC ETC ETC.

I watched the game, but only the first half for the most part. I saw no point in watching the rest of the pitch and catch exhibition. I've seen Madden games that had more strategy.

Point taken. There are worse offensive lines than Miami's.
Moore finished 12th in QB rating. If Marshall doesn't drop 4 potential TD's, Moore finishes with a QB rating of 91.4 (60.9 comp. percentage, 20 TD, 9 INT). Just that alone puts him ahead of all three QB's that threw a TD to Marshall in the pro bowl. If 9th is mediocre, I'll take it.

You're not seriously implying those numbers make Moore better than Rivers, Dalton, or Ben are you? -EK

None of the three QBs that threw a TD to Marshall have a Pro Bowl MVP-caliber WR on their roster.

But let's be serious: regardless of this year's passer rating, Moore is not remotely in the same class as any of those QBs (except maybe the rookie, Dalton, which isn't really a compliment to Moore).

What I'm saying is that this season, Moore would've had a better statistical year than those 3 had a certain Pro Bowl MVP caught some of those dropped TD passes. That puts the ball back in Marshall's court. Over the course of their careers, those three will probably be better. To lay the blame at a QB who put the ball in your hands, and you drop them, is ludicrous to me.

And Vincent Jackson, A.G. Green, & Mike Wallace aren't pro bowl caliber?

Not over the course of their careers. THIS year all three were significantly better than Moore. QB rating is one of many, many evaluations. There's a reason those guys made the pro bowl and Moore didn't. He stinks. -EK

This year, Moore threw for career highs in completions, yards and TDs, while Big Ben and Rivers both posted a worse passer rating than their career average (Rivers dramatically so).  Your argument appears to be that even though Marshall had more receptions and yards than the other three WRs mentioned, if he had only caught more TDs too, Moore would have been rated above the other QBs.  In other words, if Marshall was a dramatically superior WR in every aspect of the game, Moore would have looked better than his competitors.  This is leveling the playing field?

On a side note, you keep mentioning the "4 TD drops" but I know there were a couple that came from Henne, not Moore.  Which 4 TD drops from Moore to Marshall are you talking about?  Because it's ridiculous to give Moore credit for a TD pass that was thrown by another player.

And prior to this year Moore was playing for Carolina, so what's your point? That Moore's year was an aberration? Perhaps he just needed a few more reps with some better receivers. Mind if we wait until at least he's had another chance before we pigeon hole this year into the "luck" category.

My argument was that a few more completed plays by Marshall, Moore has a top 10 year. First year with the team, no offseason, working with the 2nd team in preaseason, & doesn't start until game 4(due to injury). Granted Moore is not a rookie, but it was still his 1st with this team.  Maybe, I'm alone in seeing potential here. But to sit here and act like a nearly to 2 to 1 touchdown to interception ratio, with a 6-3 finish is completely garbage, is just unreal. I know Moore is not a top 5 QB, but he's not a bottom 5 either.

And without Marshall, he's at the bottom of the league.

Using Brandon Marshall's stats as evidence that Brandon Marshall's desire for a quality QB is unfounded is circular logic.  I suppose if Marshall would have played worse, his cries would then become justified?

To use only one side of the equation is unfounded circular logic. You can't have one without the other. If Brandon played worse, he doesn't make the pro bowl. Which would add to the criticism of Moore. QB-WR stats are a reflections of each other. Much like the W-L stat for pitchers. Its not just Moore's fault that Marshall didn't have a better year. Its not just Marshall's fault, that Moore didn't have a better year. The guy made the pro bowl & still felt he's not "accepted" as elite. He didn't criticize himself for dropping balls(top 5) in that category. He criticized someone who wasn't there to defend himself. I'm not saying Moore is elite. I'm saying he has potential to improve. Much like the pro bowl MVP.

But you actually DID say he was elite with the implication that if his WR played better be would have performed better than any of the three Pro Bowl QB's. If Moore was even remotely as good as you are proposing, he would make the players around him better- not worse. If ANY other receiver in Miami would have performed well, your argument would hold water. They didn't though. Fasano, Bess, and Hartline all had worse numbers under Moore than they did Henne. -EK

Depends on how you look at it. Henne had more yardage per attempt, but fewer TD's per attempt and more INT's per attempt. Completion percentage was nearly identical. (see below).

And if you add in Clay and Marshall, things get even further skewed toward Moore. Henne actually did well throwing the ball except when it comes to TD's where Moore far outshined him. Is that just coincidence? Hard to know for sure. Henne did seem to be a bit snake bit in the early games when Marshall for sure dropped a couple of certain TD's that would have helped his numbers tremendously. I don't think Moore was really that much better than Henne overall, but it was the perception because Moore started out TERRIBLE and picked up his play considerably as the season wore on. Was that due to him getting better, just having more reps with the players, weaker defenses, etc? Hard to say.

If I had to make a call, I'd say I'd go with Moore over Henne based on stats alone. And since Henne's contract is up and Moore's isn't, then the choice is obvious which one will be back and which one won't, but I don't think it's fair to say all those guys did worse with Moore.

Henne:

Fasano: 6 of 11 for 108 yards, no TD's and 1 INT.
Bess: 13 of 22 for 192 yards, no TD's and no INTs.
Hartline: 11 of 19 for 188 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs.

Total: 30 of 52 for 57.7% and 9.4 yards,.019 TDs and 0.058 INTs per attempt.

Moore:

Fasano: 24 of 39 for 308 yards, 5 TD's and 1 INT.
Bess: 38 of 62 for 345 yards, 3 TD's and 2 INTs.
Hartline: 23 of 47 for 337 yards 0 TD's and 3 INTs.

Total: 85 of 147 for 57.8% and 6.73 yards,.054 TDs and .041 INTs per attempt.

Just for grins, I went back and looked at just incomplete passes from Henne to Marshall and found 9 incompletions to Marshall that were deep inside the opponents territory in the first 3 games. 2 from the New England 2 yard line and 1 from the 7.  2 more from outside the 20 and 2 from inside the 20 against Houston and 1 from the Cleveland 8. It doesn't say whether these passes were dropped or just incomplete, but still that was 9 attempts to get the ball to Marshall in just the first 3 games in scoring position. He targetted Marshall a total of 31 times in those 3 games and had 17 completions, but only 1 TD. 9 of Henne's 14 incompletions to Marshall were within striking distance of the goal line. Does that say that Henne couldn't get the ball into the endzone or does that say that Marshall couldn't come up with the catch when around the goal line? You be the judge.

One last thing, following that incomplete from Henne to Marshal from the New England 7. Henne had a 3rd down 7 yard TD pass to Bess overturned and spotted on the New England 1 yard line. 2 plays later Tom Brady hit Wes Welker for a 99 yard TD. Later in the game with 1 second on the clock Henne forced a pass downfield that was intercepted at the 5. If the replay would have showed Bess broke the plane, that would have given him another TD and potentially would have avoided him having to force the ball with 1 second on the clock causing an INT. Call it karma, bad luck, a tough break or poor QB'ing, Henne just hasn't been able to come up with the big plays when he's needed to. Other than that though, he's not a bad QB.

I never said Moore was elite. I even said he wasn't elite in the last post. I was showing that he wasn't trash. Just like I wouldn't call Marshall trash. I live by the belief that if you want better, be better. If you want more, do more. Brandon could have done more. Just like everybody else.

Henne had talent. Its just when he would get rattled, either by being hit or overthrowing a wide open receiver,  his game fell way off.

You never said he was elite in those word, no. But...

Saying he would be better than three pro bowl QB's if he only had 4 more TD's implies that eliteness, does it not? -EK