The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/sfl-chad-henne-dolphins-career-over-12,0,1889265.story

Miami will not extend Henne an offer when his contract expires on March 13.

The article points out that with virtually the same weapons, Matt Moore posted a significantly better passer rating and a much better win % than Henne.  I am forced to agree.

I can only hope the Jets pick him up.

Stats don't lie, but I still think Henne got a raw deal, and has improved.  I think a change of scenery will do him some good and, in the right system, he could be successful.

I agree, I was a Henne backer.  He was tough (took some hits, never complained), big arm, but he never seem to make the plays when MIA needed them.  Now, this could be combo of both him & the players around him (looking at you Brandon), but I believe he had enough shots and just didn't get the job done. Wish him well.

/this prob comes back to bite MIA in the a$$ when they face his new team and he leads them on a game-winning drive and knocks MIA out of the playoffs. LOL

It usually DOES, I do see Henne coming back to light the Fins up. 

But then again i said the same thing about John beck when the Fins played Washington so who knows what will happen.  I like Henne and hope he gets another shot somewhere.

I liked Henne on and off, but I can't say he got a raw deal.  He had the opportunity to improve, and didn't do it enough.  When another QB came in with the same staff and saw better results (not just win/loss, but general offensive production), I think it's time to move on.

When I say he got a raw deal, I mean from the fans.  Fans decided during preseason of his rookie year that he sucked, and its difficult to change a fan's mind once they decide something.  Rookies have to come out of the gate hot and stay hot or else they will never win the favor of fans.

I don't think it's difficult to change the fan's minds at all.  They will jump on and off the bankwagon based on results.  Henne could never get results and stay healthy

I liked Henne and I think he can be successful in this league. I wish him well and like others have stated I hope he doesn't come back here an and tear the Phins a new asshole when he does.

Find me any Dolphin fans that thought Henne "sucked" after the first orange jersey game against the Jets in '09.

At that point, Henne had more fan support as "the QB of the future" than any QB since Marino (and that was his second game as a starter).  He had all the fan support in the world through week 15 of '09, having went 7-3 as a starter, sweeping the Jets and splitting with NE.  It was the pathetic three-game losing streak to close out the season (against 6-7, 7-7, and 8-7 teams) that soured the fanbase on him, and a repeat in 2010 didn't help.

As far as I remember, fans thought Henne was the future for a while, even me. He just didn't improve enough, and then to see Moore actually get better production, it kind of shows how slow of an improvement Henne made.

+1

I think what Brian was alluding to and I agree with in part is that fans seem to believe that you're either great or a bum. No one is just average. Henne was average, but the vast majority of people considered him to be a bum because he wasn't great.

I call it the MikeO syndrome.  >:D  Just kidding MikeO. :)

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

No they didn't. Henne didn't even play his rookie year he sat the bench with a baseball cap and watched Pennington play. Don't re-write history

Then after his first game the Monday night vs the Jets in his 2nd year where he lite up the Jets defense Henne had the support of EVERY Dolphins fan on the planet. Too bad that will probably be his best game ever and he has sucked ever since then. The guy can't play and had numerous opportunities to prove it. He sucks!

You are wrong! Henne isn't just average. He sucks!  He loses games, throws INT's and can't lead a friggin TD drive to save his life.

There is no middle ground with Henne, he sucks! The numbers don't lie!

See what I mean?  ;D

Thanks MikeO, I knew I could count on ya!  >:D

I know everyone thinks that Henne is crap and Moore is ready to take Miami to new heights, but the reality is that Moore WASN'T signficantly better this year. He was a little better. 87 passer rating against 79 passer in 2011 with the same personell. And Moore padded his stats with GREAT games against KC and Buffalo where he posted a 147, 133 and 122 passer rating and his TD to INT ratio was 8 to 0. Other than those games he wasn't any better than Henne. Don't forget that the offense didn't really get going until about 8 games into the season, that there was very little preseason and there was a new offensive coordinator, new players etc. You throw all that into the mix and it's pretty obvious to someone as stupid as me that Moore looked MUCH improved as the year went on and he got comfortable with the offense, they figured out how to use Bush etc. No one really knows what Henne would have been able to accomplish this year had he stayed healthy. So yeah Moore looked great against some very suspect teams this year. I'm in no way convinced he's ANY better than Henne was.

Now I'm not crying for Henne that he was let go. He had his shot and he didn't produce, time to move on. I get that. But lets be honest here, anyone who thinks that Moore is gonna do a lot better than Henne did is fooling themselves.

^^^^^

Now this made me laugh so hard, I doubled over with stomach pains

You talk like there is a debate whether Henne is good or not, there is no debate! If you want to be on the Chad Henne is "good" bandwagon like you are claiming, go for. You can sit alone on that one.  He can't play. I don't know how much more of a sample size you need to see, but his sample size is enough now for most level headed people. The guy can't play. He isn't any good. One of two things will happen for Henne this offseason. Sparano will bring him to NY and hand him the back-up job to Sanchez. OR another team will offer him a minimum contract where Chad will have to fight for (yes fight for) the #2 QB position on a team.

Moore (while still crappy) was light years better than Henne ever was. And that's not even close or up for debate. At least Moore can play decent vs Bad Teams. Henne sucks vs good teams and bad teams. Moore has the capability to have a decent quarter or half on the occasion vs an inferior opponent, with Henne you never get that. The one thing about Henne is he gets worse each year and as time goes on. He was terrible before he got hurt this year, brutal.  No signs of improvement over his career. Only regression.

I always felt that Henne seemed so immobile, stiff, and lost in his last 2 years with the team. It was odd. He was so fluid and relaxed (it seemed) when he took over for Pennington in 2009. Maybe that's just my fuzzy memory, but I think the numbers somewhat bear it out.

2009
   Cmp    Att    Yds    TD    Int    Lng
           10    19    92    0    1    27   v. Chargers (subbing in for an injured pennington)
           14    22    115    1    0    18   v. Bills
           20    26    241    2    0    59   v. Jets (this was the game where Rex said they made Henne look good)   
           18    36    211    0    2    67   v. Saints (remember, this was the game w/ all the Ginn drops)
           12    21    112    1    0    28   v. Jets
           
and on and on, all of his 2009 stats are here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HennCh01/gamelog/2009/

Henne posted a 90.4 in a loss against the juggernaut known as the Browns.  Looks to me like Moore did better against the teams he was supposed to beat.  But let's compare apples to apples.

Henne posted a 93.6 in a blowout loss to NE, racking up a bunch of stats in garbage time.
Moore posted a 98.6 in a 3-point loss to NE.

In any case, since no one is claiming that Moore is a franchise QB, this really just proves the point:  the most charitable thing you can say about Henne is that he might be as good as a guy who is definitely not starter-quality.  So what does that really say about Henne?

Fair enough, but remember that was early in the year, with no preseason, a new offensive coordinator, a new RB tandem which Miami hadn't figured out how to use yet, etc.  Isn't it just possible he would have gotten better? Remember how Moore looked his first couple of starts? Dreadful. Worse than Henne by a wide margin. He got better as the year went on.

Again, beginning of the year as opposed to the end. You telling me that you EXPECTED Miami's offense to be good in game 1? I didn't. I thought they actually did better than I expected.

More importantly (now) what does it say about Moore?

I was a Henne fan..until Matt Moore came in and did what he did with the same cast, like the article points out.

LOL, love Mike's sense of black and white. Just because he sat behind Pennington, doesn't mean the fans didn't decide he stunk, as Brian said. The two are not mutually exclusive. -EK

Yeah because in Henne's rookie year of 2008 when he didn't play and the Fins were going 11-5, winning the AFC East, and Pennington finishes in 2nd place for the MVP award all we heard was Chad Henne hate coming out of Miami.  ::) Give me a friggin break with this nonsense!

Talk about re-writing history and changing reality.

He sucked even in 2009.  that first Jets game was good though.  Basically all the idiot fans loved him because he could throw the ball hard and stupid people think that is what makes a good qb. 

There were some fans who were begging to see Henne in 2008 even when the team was winning.  Who the hell though he sucked before he even played.

There were a TON of people who thought that. YouTube the number of "Chad Henne sucks" videos from all the way back when he was at Michigan. Mike you're missing my point entirely. Irrespective of how Pennington did, you can't look at Henne sitting on the bench, having never taken a snap, and jump to the conclusion that he sucks, which is what some people did. -EK

Didn't someone do an analysis of this and show Bush wasn't used differently, his performance just improved?

You got me there.  >:D

I didn't hear any Henne hate until after the 2009 season

Henne passer rating in first four starts:
vs. NE- 93.6
vs. HOU- 56.2
@ CLE- 90.4
@ SD- 53.1

Moore passer rating in first four starts:
@ NYJ- 41.8
vs. DEN- 92.6
@ NYG- 58.5
@ KC- 147.5

That doesn't look like "worse by a wide margin" to me.

Furthermore, what's this "no preseason" stuff?  There was a preseason; Miami played 4 games, the same as any other year.  There wasn't a full offseason, but in the limited offseason that Miami did have, Henne took all the starter snaps, working largely with players that he has been playing with for multiple years.  Moore was taking second-team snaps with players who didn't even make the team.

This line of reasoning does not help Henne's case.

Henne had his best outing in his first start and got worse from there.  Moore had his worst outing in his first start and got better from there.  The "new offense" excuse is just that; an excuse, as Henne was getting worse, not better.

I imagine it says that he's not a starter-quality QB and that Miami should try to find a legit starter... which is what they are doing, in a rather overt and public fashion.

But this isn't about Moore.  This is about Henne, who is worse than Moore.  He was anointed as the QB of the future and he folded against three straight non-playoff teams to end his first season as a starter.  Then, when it was theorized that he just didn't have enough weapons, the brass went out and traded for a top-3 WR... and Henne's passer rating improved by two-tenths of a point.  He didn't get a bum rap, or get unfairly dumped on by the fans; he was handed the keys to the franchise and he ran the car into a ditch.

Well that SD game is deceptive. Henne only threw 4 passes and his poor rating is largely due to the 1 INT he had where the defense failed to block a blitzer and Henne was demolished while trying to throw downfield and it floated and was picked off. He then got hurt and was replaced by Moore who played most of the game, so I put that game on him for the most part. That makes the numbers look more like this:

Henne passer rating in first 4 games:
vs. NE- 93.6
vs. HOU- 56.2
@ CLE- 90.4
@ SD - Incomplete

Moore passer rating in first 4 games:
@ SD - 67.3
@ NYJ- 41.8
vs. DEN- 92.6
@ NYG- 58.5

It changes things considerably when you look at the full circumstances surrounding the stats.

It will be if he's the starter this year.

You'll get no argument from me on those points other than he didn't do it on his own, he had LOTS of help driving the thing into the ditch. And when Moore was first handed the keys, it was still FIRMLY in a ditch until Sparano threw up his hands and said he didn't have any answers and took his hands off the steering wheel and his foot off the brake. THEN and ONLY THEN did Moore get it steered back into the road.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Exactly! 100% you are correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise is making stuff up in their head!

I was, and am somewhat, a Henne supporter.  He had glimpses of great potential, but for whatever reasons he didn't fulfill them in Miami.  The thing I hated most about him was the 2 minute drill preformance, deer in the headlights all the way.  Now I just worry about him being injury prone.  I think he would make a good backup on a top tier team, he could lead a team for a game or two if the starter had a minor injury.  Good Luck to him, seemed like a nice guy.

Are you also going to subtract out the garbage time stats he piled up against a prevent defense in the NE game, after laying an egg when the game was within reach?

The stats are what they are.

So you happily give Henne an "incomplete" for a game in which he is injured, but then immediately issue a full evaluation on Moore for part of a game in which he was thrown in with no first-team prep time?

First four starts vs. first four starts, Moore was better than Henne.  And that is more of an indictment of Henne than it is praise of Moore.

Everyone already agrees that Moore is not starter quality, so even if you manage to convince us that Henne is just as good, what does that prove?

So if I am to understand you correctly:

- Dan Henning comes in with Pennington at the helm, and is lauded as a genius for his implementation of the innovative Wildcat offense (meanwhile, Pennington finishes 2nd in MVP voting)
- Pennington goes down and is replaced by Henne, and now (with the same weapons on the field) suddenly Henning is a bumbling, outdated idiot who can't adjust to today's game
- Henning is replaced by Brian Daboll, and yet the offense still remains pathetic and ineffective, getting worse by the week
- Henne is replaced by Moore, the offense steadily improves, and Daboll simultaneously "figures out" how to use Reggie Bush

It is not a coincidence that Moore's improved QB play (which is a statistical fact) just happened to occur right before Reggie Bush remembered how to run.  As many of us are aware from the Run Ricky Run days, when your QB is feckless and ineffective, your running game becomes a lot more one-dimensional and easy to stop.

Only if you're going to count the 59 yards rushing and TD he had and the TD to Bess that was overturned on review that would have cut the lead to 7 with 5 minutes left in the game when the game WASN'T out of reach. You're reaching here.

Henne played 1/2 of the 1st quarter and completed 3 of 4 passes and had a pick that was not his fault, he was picking himself up off the ground before the ball was picked. Moore played 3 & 1/2 quarters and completed 17 of 26 with a pick to end the game when no one was close to him. I'll give you that he had to come off the bench, but then again that is the job of the backup QB, so I won't cut him too much slack for that. I don't expect him to come in and dazzle, but you can't can't simply ignore what he did either.

Actually you got your facts a little messed up because Bush started to come on well before Moore did, averaging 7.1 yards a carry against the Jets when Moore posted a 41.8. Why is it that Bush had 38 yards on 11 carries in that first game against New England when Henne was playing pretty well? Miami had 25 first downs, 19 by passing. You saying they got all of those in the last 5 minutes? If you are you would be wrong. Henne also played pretty well against Cleveland and Bush got only 13 yards on 10 carries. I've already shown Moore didn't look good in 3 of his first 4 outings and yet Bush started to come on right at that time. He had his first 100 yard game against the Giants where Moore posted a WHOPPING 58.5 passer rating. Perhaps you have it backwards and it's the fact that Bush started to force teams to play the run which allowed Moore more space in the secondary to find open receivers and THAT'S why he started looking better? The very next game was his big game against KC. Maybe KC figured Bush was a bigger threat than Moore and was stacking the box?

We can argue this all day Spider, but I'm not going to. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Henne was good, I've already stated that he was an average QB which was really disappointing considering that we expected more from him. Moore was a little better, but I don't think the expectations were as high for Moore. He came over as a free agent and no one really expected much out of him. So when you look at both of them, you are disappointed with Henne and happy with Moore, but I think that's mainly because of the expectations of each, not because Moore was so much better.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Since when do overturned catches count for something?  It's not like the officials messed up the call when they overturned it.  Henne doesn't get credit for the TD to Bess because... it wasn't actually a TD.

Again, when taking into account plays that counted, he couldn't score from the red zone when the game was in reach and piled up 100+ yards after the result was no longer in doubt.

Um, he chose to throw the ball there instead of throwing it away or taking the sack.  That's on him.  It's not like he threw a perfectly placed ball and it was bobbled and intercepted; he made a bad decision.

But while we are on the topic of which picks count and which ones don't, does Moore get to erase the pick from the @NYJ game where Revis mugged Marshall and returned the ball 100 yards?  I mean, since we are making excuses.

When given the opportunity to practice with the first team and prepare as a starter, Moore outplayed Henne, bottom line.

Apples to apples.


7.1 yards a carry?! That's incredible!  Did he have a 200+ yard game?

Oh, wait... he had 10 rushes for 71 yards, with a long of 36.  Hmmm.  It's not often that I've heard someone brag about a 71-yard game from a RB, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

Let's take a more complete look at passer rating and Bush's performance, per game.  I'll list the passer rating, then Bush's yards, then his YPC.

1- 93.6, 38yds, 3.5ypc
2- 56.2, 18yds, 3.0ypc
3- 90.4, 13yds, 1.3ypc
4- 53.1/67.3, 50yds, 3.8ypc
5- 41.8, 71yds, 7.1ypc
6- 92.6, 42yds, 4.2ypc
7- 58.5, 103yds, 6.9ypc
8- 147.5, 92yds, 7.1ypc
9- 75.2, 47yds, 3.4ypc
10- 133.3, 32yds, 2.1ypc
11- 99.5, 61yds, 3.8ypc
12- 85.8, 100yds, 4.5ypc
13- 66.8, 103yds, 7.4ypc
14- 122.3, 203yds, 8.1ypc
15- 98.6, 113yds, 5.1ypc
(Bush was out for the last game)

I see two things in this data:

1) Bush was HORRIBLE when Henne was under center, full stop
2) Bush eclipsed 100 yards in a game 5 times; 4 of them were after Moore had already posted four games with a 90+ passer rating

I am completely confused as to what point you have been trying to make for the last 2 pages.  I said from the start that "no one is claiming that Moore is a franchise QB," but you seem to have it in your head that someone believes "Moore is ready to take Miami to new heights."

Nobody is on the Matt Moore bandwagon.  Nobody believes that he is anything but a solid backup.  The ENTIRE POINT of this comparison is that Henne is WORSE than a player whose ceiling is "backup."

The only pattern I see from data above is there is no pattern. He was bad at times when the QB was good (weeks 1,3 & 10). He was good at times when the QB was bad (weeks 5,7 & 13) and yes he was good when the QB was good (weeks 8,  14 & 15), but your premise that he got better when the QB play improved is not supported by the above in ANY way and you claimed it was fact.

I'm done arguing with you on this Spider. You have your opinion I have mine.

He ran for four straight 100+ yard games to close out the season, and you "see no pattern"?  OK.

My contention was never that Reggie Bush was good in games in which Moore played well.  I said that he "remembered how to run" (e.g. fired off four straight 100+ yard games) after the team got more effective play from the QB position.  Seeing as how his best games were at the end of the season, how can you possibly argue that he was the cause of Moore playing well, and not the other way around?

No pattern compared to QB play. Could be the offensive line just started to open more holes for Bush.

Moore started playing in week 4. Now it's your contention that the switch from Henne to Moore didn't benefit Bush until week 12? That's a hell of a leap of faith especially when Bush had a 100 yard game in week 7. I'm done. Not another word from me no matter how flimsy your argument is.

Reggie's run of 4 straight 100+ yard games at the end of the season was probably influenced by a number of factors, including the defenses he faced...none of which were good at stopping the run. Philly was the highest ranked run-D of the bunch at #16.

You already admitted that Moore was better than Henne.  So are you simply rejecting the claim that better QB play opens up the running game?

Moore became a starter in the 5th game.
Moore began a streak of consistent quality play in the 8th game.  (You might recall that this was the same time the Dolphins started actually winning games.)
If you want to claim that better QB play has no effect on the ability of the OL to run block, you're welcome to take that position.

He posts one 100-yard effort in the first 11 games and it's a "leap of faith" to say that he had a dramatic improvement at the end of the season?  That's almost worse than your "7.1 ypc against the Jets!" citation.

You're the one that claimed that Bush "started to come on well before Moore did."  So if Bush didn't post consecutive 100-yard games until week 14, when was it that Moore started playing better?  Week 17?  The offseason?

I find it hilarious that you accuse me of having a "flimsy argument" when your entire point appears to be that Moore is not the savior of the franchise.  Who, exactly, believes that he is?  Why are you defending Henne in the first place?  What, precisely, are you trying to prove here?

Spider, he is playing a card that is often played on this message board by some. It's a 3 prong attack...

1) Make something up out of thin air
2) Come out against it
3) Be outraged over it

Essentially he is arguing with himself because he is arguing against a point or stance nobody has taken