The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Caught this article with the Sun Sentinel that claims that the primary reason for negative feedback from fans on Brian Hartline was his skin color.  While I actually agree there is some of that going on, the article convinced me otherwise when I watched the youtube video that was posted to back up the claim.

Go to...

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2012/05/miami-dolphins-why-the-hate-for-brian-hartline.html

Watch the imbedded youtube video and see if you pick up on what I picked up on.  Brian Hartline goes to the ground after every catch.  Many times he needs to go to the ground, but I think he has gotten so used to it that he does it even when he doesn't have to.  How can a guy who runs agressively on reverses be so shitty after the catch?

I hope Hartline is aware of this, because it scares the crap out of me that our #1 receiver does absolutely nothing but catch the ball and fall down.  This has nothing to do with skin color.

Can you also get a youtube video of all the amazing sideline and fingertip grabs this guy has made over the years?  He's probably got the best hands on the team.

It is on the video.  Take a couple of minutes and watch it.

I have never been a fan of his really but I can honestly say it has nothing to do with his skin color.....that is bogus!!!!!

+1..I'm so fucking sick of the race card

I actually think the opposite is true. It would take a white guy less success to become a fan favorite in a receiver position because it is rare.  I think it's funny someone would even think it is a hinderence being a white guy in football.

This is a perfect example of people watching the same thing but seeing it differently. I encourage everyone to watch the video and weigh in. It is obvious Doc was exaggerating aout going to the ground after every catch (unless you account for the fact a receiver does get tackled nearly every time they touch the ball) but I do not see any issue with him going to the ground unnecessarily. If anything, I think you should look at the ball placement on the throw more closely. There were several instances on that video of Hartline being wide open and the ball thrown catchable but nowhere near where it should be for him to be able to keep control of his body.

I agree!

Many of those throws were thrown in an area that they could be caught but, most never gave Hartline a chance at YAC yards!   If he puts those throws ahead of Hartline and at least waist level many of those could have gone to the house or produced some impressive YAC yards!

Also, In defense of Hartline (not that he needs it) most of his catches came when Marshall was off the field or doubled!  Moore's first read was always Marshall... there were many instances where Hartline and Bess were open but Moore didn't look for them!

I also would like multiple perspectives.  That is what boards like this are good for.

But I don't see how I was exaggerating.  There are a lot of receptions in that video and there is very very little YAC.  There are not a ton of plays where he was lead into the open field, but there were definately a few plays that he could have turned a moderate gain into a large gain.

While you watch the video...  Ask yourself the questions - Does he need to jump or go to the ground there?  What would have happened if he had made a better attempt to stay on his feet?  Does the amount of effort it takes to get him to the ground match up with the effort it takes to get other #1 or #2 receivers to the ground?  

I like the guy and think he is a good player, but if our best receiver does this we are in trouble.  It shouldn't take away from the fact that he is excellent at keeping control and his feet in bounds on sidline plays.  I am not attacking his game in total.  But in the pros, this has to get better.  We also shouldn't lose perspective that he is not going against the other teams top corner.

I saw a guy who's first concern was catching the ball and THEN worried about running with it. I LIKE that. Catch the damn ball, then if you can get more after the catch great, but catch the damn ball FIRST. I also saw a guy that got as much yardage as he could straight up the field. Look at that reverse he ran. He nearly scored because he ran straight up the gut with it. 99% of receivers would have tried to take that to the corner and would have gotten run out of bounds at the 10.

This is why we kick field goals and don't score touchdowns.  These guys are pros, catching the ball doesn't deserve a cookie.  Our receivers (including Hartline) seem adequate for keeping the chains moving, sort of.  But guys, we are talking about the NFL here.  There is a higher standard out of necessity.

Now ask yourself Doc if he DOESN'T jump or go to the ground, is he ASSURED of making the catch?  I say no in EVERY case. There was one in particular that I think the average fan would say that he should have kept his feet, but I disagree. He had beaten the DB, but the ball was thrown behind him and to the inside, so he dips inside the DB and then he does something that you can't teach, he actually goes UP for the ball and catches it at it's height rather than waiting for it to come to him. He loses his balance a bit when he does this and get's tackled but going UP for the ball absolutely guaranteed that the DB couldn't recover and make a play on the ball.

In spite of Omar's superior knowledge to myself, regarding racial profiling, it has nothing to do with race.  I've never been a fan of Hartline, don't hate the guy either.  I just think he is an average 3rd string receiver.  There was a 9 minute highlight reel that I think had only two TD catches, heck it had more highlights of him being interferred with.  Then Omar wants to say he performed when his number was called, how the heck does Omar know how many times that Hartline was the primary target and he didn't get open???

+1 on this!

If Marshall's concern was to catch the ball first just imagine the numbers he could have put up... he would have had more TD's for sure!!!

I completely disagree. You can't run with it if you don't catch it. You can't score with it if you don't catch it. You can't get a first down if you don't catch it. Brandon Marshall would have had about 4 more TD's if he would have just caught the damn ball when he had the chance. Hell BM ran out bounds once for no apparent reason and you're on Brian Hartline for making sure he catches it first? You're looking for a reason to criticize that's just not there.

I want to fair and clear.  There are many catches where it is absolutely evident that leaving his feet was either the only way to make the catch or close to it.  There were also many catches that were made where getting tackled was inevitable.

But there were approximately 1 out of 10 catches that could have or should have gone for more and didn't go for more due to either poor body control after the catch or unnecessarilly jumping or dropping before the catch.  This 10% is the difference in the NFL.  It really is.

That's the problem Marshall was always the primary receiver in Moore's eyes!   He looked for Hartline when Marshall wasn't on the field or there was no chance of getting him the ball!  A lot of those throws were slants also.. If Moore had led him right instead of throwing low some of those slants could have been big numbers!   How many slants did Jerry Rice and John Taylor take to the house?

I can respect you disagreeing, but why does it seem you are making "catching the ball" the standard.  I will agree with you that it must be done to have success as a receiver, but doing it alone is simply not enough.

And I will refrain from commenting on Marshall because I am coming at this with the perspective of moving forward with what we have, but if I was going to talk about Marshall it wouldn't take long to find video of him making things happen after the catch that would put this video to shame.

Agreed.

I completely disagree. I thought there were maybe 1 or 2 catches where someone else might have gotten more yardage, but that same guy would have dropped 2 or 3 of the balls that Hartline catches. You're not giving him enough credit for making the plays that he DOES make while being over critical on the ones that he DOESN'T make.

Very possible, but keep in mind there is a very good chance Moore is our QB this year.  At the very least, I have to imagine it will be QB play of a similar caliber.  I just hope Hartline tries to improve this aspect of his game now that he is being thrust into a more vital roll on the team.  

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with Hartline this year.

I hope you are right, Pappy.  I want to be optomistic and have reason for hope but I also have reason for doubt.

My main source of doubt is this...  I am really worried about what I perceive to be a lack of aggressiveness from our receiver core.  I think we have receivers that are smart enough, fast enough and have good hands.  I like how (I believe) our scheme will use the type of depth we have.  But I just don't see the kind of guys who look to score when they get the ball in their hands.  I see guys who are focused on running the proper routes and making the catch, but we have to score.

The only thing that eases my tension is our tightends and our running backs.  I see aggressiveness and savy out of those units.  The question is, is that enough? 

If I get surprised, I expect it will likely come from either Bess or Gates.  Bess showed aggressiveness in his punt returns last year and Gates won't be taking on the other teams best corner.  But that is just my deduction.

Hartline is a serviceable #2.  If he is expected to be the primary receiving threat, MIA is in trouble.

I wonder if people said the same things about Wayne Chrebet? He was alot like Hartline, wasnt he? Great hands, very dependable for the catch, but not much for running after the catch?

*I'm asking if he was because I honestly don't remember. He was a Dolphin killer for sure, but I don't remember any runs after catches from him.

Hartline is a "nice" player. For where he was drafted he has outperformed the expectations. There are very few knocks on the guy and negative things you can say against him as a player.

IF he is the #1 WR going into the season come September its the opportunity of a lifetime for him. I'm not sure hie is anywhere near a #1 WR in this league but we will find out.

Hartline has been described as "Jordy Nelson with an accurate QB." He'll be fine as the #1 guy this year. -EK

He has to run the correct route and catch the football. Outside of that, with the disarray this team is in, I don't think much else matters.

I think we all need to get the "primary target" idea out of our head. The primary receiver will now be the guy that's open instead of the guy with the "open mouth". Hartline will be fine.

The good thing about this is its the final year of Hartline's deal. So, if Hartline does well we can re-sign him and he is a guy we have to build around and find him some help. Whether he is the #2 or the #1, go get help for him, And we have a proven player in our new system who we know can produce. If Hartline fails, bombs out, stinks in his new role and just isn't a #1 or #2 WR in this league we can let him walk and its no big thing because his contract is up anyway.

Now that I've watched the video, I will say I disagree with your analysis a bit more.

I saw exactly 4 instances where Hartline could have kept his feet to try for a longer run:

3:10 - Hartline makes a catch in the flat and dives forward into 3 defenders.
6:15 - Hartline jumps for a deep ball and trips after coming down with it
7:55 - Hartline had 3 or 4 steps on his man and had to lean to get the ball a bit and fell after the catch
8:40 - Hartline dives on a comeback route when he probably didn't need to.

There were probably 40 or 50 plays in that highlight reel, and 4 of them I agree he could have kept going.

If you hate Hartline so much, go ahead and send him to New England and watch him become a Pro Bowler, and then whine about how he was underutilized here.  Hartline is very underrated, and I hope he gets to show his stuff this season.

I am considering going through and tagging plays the way you did.  Interestingly enough, I mentioned that about 1 out of 10 plays could have been much bigger gains.  Your analysis is consistant with that.

I don't want to ship Hartline out.  I like the guy and think he is a fairly good player.  But he is our best receiver and I find that to be a problem.  I specifically chose the term "best receiver" here.  I am not looking for a Calvin Johnson type guy.  But if our best receiver doesn't try to find a way to catch the ball and run, where does that leave us?  I am greatful for his good hands and sideline awareness, but we need more than that.

You seem to miss the point that the QB has a lot to do with YAC also...  What made Montana and QB's like Kurt Warner and Tom Brady great is their placement of the ball!   They put the ball in a spot that lead the receiver away from the defender and up field.   That makes a big difference in the receiver having momentum to continue running away from the defender. If the receiver has to adjust his route to get to the ball he losses that momentum and the separation!

I'm not talking about "primary target"; Mike Wallace can be the #1 receiver on your team without being the guy you throw to on every set of downs.

When I say "#1 receiver," I mean the best receiver on your team; the player that the opposing team specifically gameplans to stop.  Dropped TDs or no, Marshall was a legitimate #1 receiver.  Ginn was not.  Chambers was, for a short time.  Hartline has not shown anything to indicate that he's ready to be the best receiver on a team.

I didn't count the total number of plays, but in 9 minutes of time, I estimate each one about 20 seconds.  Its just a guess.

I wonder if you were to look a similar highlight reel of another possession-type receiver in the league, what it would show.  1 out of 10 isn't terrible, and certainly doesn't qualify as "always goes to the ground too soon."  Also, as stated above, the lack of a prime-time QB on this team cannot be understated.

As a #1 primary target WR, Hartline scares me.  But like MikeO said, Hartline is a "nice player" and has great hands.  He's definitely worth keeping around.  I am interested to see what he does this season, as I think he's perfect for the type of offense I keep hearing Philbin is planning on running.  I think this year could be a break-out season for Hartline, and in a contract year, we will really get a good feel for his real true value very soon.

But you don't have to have a #1 receiver that the opposing team gameplans for to have a good passing attack. You can have a team of 3 or 4 receivers that the defense never knows who will be the receiver on any given night that they will have to stop. In many cases that's tougher to stop.

^^^^^^ as long as those 3 or 4 receivers are reliable enough to catch the balls thrown to them. As long as the QB has the vision to find any of those 3 or 4 guys. Then, yes.

Those systems do not work without an elite QB.  By that, I mean that you can't have a Tony Romo, or a Philip Rivers, or a Matt Ryan... you must have a Brady/Brees/Rodgers pulling the trigger.

Now, it would be great if Tannehill turns out to be the next Aaron Rodgers, and can turn a bunch of above-average WRs into a devastating offense.  But I don't like the idea of building a team around that premise.

I think we have already seen that having an elite WR doesn't mean dick either without an elite QB.

It's not like Hartline was a top ten pick.  He was taken in the fourth round.  He's a nice player to have on a team and has performed very good for MIA...not great but very good.

I've continually said it. Hartline is the man and I have no idea where this all of a sudden disrespect and thinking he's a horrible receiver came from. I think race could play a factor, just like every other white player in a skill position. I can't remember the running back, but he had that problem has well (was it the Browns' running back, Hillis?). If the Dolphins get rid of Hartline I'd be just as upset as when they got rid of Welker. They always seemed like the same type of guy to me.

Its a story being perpetuated by a vocal minority.  No one can say he doesn't give 110%, and he's been thrust into the spotlight by the Marshall trade.  He's the best we got, but he's not Calvin Johnson.

MIA hasn't even had a second-tier QB in decades.  Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson seem to do pretty good with second-tier QBs.

Can you tell me with conviction that Hartline is a clearly superior player to Davone Bess?

Hartline is a role player.  Maybe with a quality QB, he can have a breakout season (like Welker did).  But you can say the same thing about Greg Camarillo, and MIA discarded him without much fanfare.

For the record, I was a much bigger fan of Camarillo than Hartline.  Camarillo had the best hands in the league and simply would not drop anything.

P.S. I can think of at least one skill position at which white players seem to get past the "race factor" without a problem.  Coincidentally, it happens to be the highest paid position in the sport.

Wait, so Schaub and Stafford- he of the 97.2 QB rating 5038   passing yards and 41 TDs last year- are second tier QBs? Interesting.... -EK

IMO, this hits the nail on the head as far as Hartline is concerned.  I'd be surprised if he is the #1 receiver come the start of the season.  Best wishes for him if he is.

You realize that being higher than a second-tier QB means... he would be in the top-tier, right?

Is there anyone on the planet that believes that Stafford or Schaub is equal to Brady/Brees/Rodgers right now?  There's a clear gap.  When Brees threw for 5000+ yards in 2008, that didn't make him equal to Brady or P.Manning then.

I will give you that Stafford might be able to make that jump soon.  Schaub will never be in that tier; his ceiling is about equal to Philip Rivers.

P.S. Throwing for 5000+ yards in a season when two other QB throw for more than 5200 kind of diminishes the impact of the accomplishment.  It's kind of like hitting 66 home runs in a season when someone else hits 70.

No... It only diminishes it in your narrow scope. Just about everyone else in the world looked at Stafford's numbers and said that he's a definite top tier. 5th in QB rating, 3rd in passing yards, 3rd in TDs? In two of the three biggest stat categories he only had two guys ahead of him and he's NOT top tier? So if you're not one of the top two QBs in football you're second tier? Seriously? This logic is out there, even for you.

I don't know where you were in 2008, but when Drew Brees had 5000+ yards and 34 TDs he won the AP offensive player of the year AHEAD of those guys you mentioned.

Regarding Schaub, he may not be top tier anymore, I will grant you, but before he got hurt last year, he was on his way to his third straight very impressive season. I will acquiesce on him. I remembered his play and numbers being better than they were. -EK

Stafford has proven himself to be injury prone.  His numbers for 2011 may have looked great, but he needs to do that on a consistent basis for the next three or four years to jump up into that top tier realm. 

As for Hartline, he has done a nice job for the spot he was drafted in.  However, going into the season with him as the number one receiver won't scare anyone.

What have they won?

I am not buying the race angle. 

I do think as a class Dolphin fans are a pretty fickle fan base who tend to hate any of their own offensive players unless they play at a level at or HIGHER than Marino and Duper. 

What I mean by that, is while most Jets fans were touting Sanchez and the next coming of Montana, most Dolphin fans were calling Henne the next coming of Ryan Leaf, even though I think they are about equal.  Not great, but not horrible. 

AGREED!

Most "Miami" fans are fare weather fans and that's for all sports we have in Miami!   If the team is winning and the talk of the sports world everyone crawls from under rocks and sport their colors... the second they loose two in a row the band wagon starts grinding to a snail pace and stop!

I would love to see you cite any article from a major sports website that rates Stafford above Brady, Brees or Rodgers.  He's clearly below all three of them, which is why he's not in the first tier.

If you think that Stafford's 5000 yards is not diminished by Brees and Brady both throwing for 5200+ yards (and breaking a 25-year-old record), coming off of a lockout-shortened offseason no less, I don't know what to tell you.  I guess you must also view Sosa's three seasons of 60+ HRs as one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of sport.

I will make the following bold claims right now:

1) There will never be another instance of three QBs throwing for over 5000 yards in the same season
2) Stafford will never throw for 5000+ yards again

Which of those do you disagree with?

...for one year.  Awesome.

In 2010, Philip Rivers was 1st in yards, 2nd in rating, 5th in TDs.  Guess he's also in the top tier.
In 2009, Matt Schaub was 1st in yards, 5th in TDs, 7th in rating.  Welcome to the club!*
In 2007, Tony Romo was 2nd in TDs, 3rd in yards, 5th in rating.  Top tier getting crowded!

One good year does not brand you as ultra-elite.  While Stafford had a very good 2011 and was able to play all 16 games for the first time in his 3-year career, his passer rating over the previous 13 games he had played (because that's all he had played) was a Brady Quinn-esque 67.1.

Gee, I guess Peyton Manning (a QB) must have been pretty sad to take home his NFL MVP instead of the Offensive Player of the Year.  You do realize that the Offensive Player of the Year award is basically the consolation prize, right?

In 2008, Brees was not yet a top-tier QB.  He elevated himself with his consistency of play since then.  You cannot say the same for Stafford.

*And this is my point.  There needs to be a body of evidence before you declare a QB to be among the ultra-elite.

One very good year puts you solidly in the 2nd tier (see Rivers, Schaub, Romo).  To get into the first tier, you need more than that.

That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. There's no law that says the top tier QBs must be limited to just three names. Stafford doesn't need to be ranked ahead of thise three guys to be top tier. That's a nonsense argument. He can be behind them and STILL be top tier. What makes three the magical cut off numer? Couldn't I just as easily say only two and one of your three is out? Schaub, Rivers, and Romo have ALL been considered top tier at some point in their career, even if you disagree with it. Oddly, you keep mentioning Manning, by which you must mean Eli, because Peyton's numbers were already declining before he missed an entire year. You know it's been 8 years since he had more than 33 TDs in a season right? Only cracked 4500 yards twice in that time in a "QB league." So if you're counting Peyton as still elite and top tier, there's no way you can not include Stafford. It's not a "career award." It's how good are you now? -EK

Another Dolphin related thread about to be derailed by a debate about non-Dolphin players. When will you guys stop?

edit: Fine, I will split this discussion and return this thread to the regularly scheduled idling.

Nothing wrong with that.