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TDMMC Forums => Other Sports Talk => Topic started by: Landshark on August 24, 2012, 03:40:58 pm



Title: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Landshark on August 24, 2012, 03:40:58 pm
Not sure why he is giving up fighting these charges.  Any thoughts?


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Phishfan on August 24, 2012, 03:53:49 pm
I'd say he isn't fighting it because he is guilty.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: CF DolFan on August 24, 2012, 04:06:20 pm
I'd say he isn't fighting it because he is guilty.

I don't get that at all. In fact I have said before that I was surprised he continued to fight it. Even if he is guilty, I really don't care anymore. I mean he never failed a test in almost 15 years yet he was constantly defending himself. He was in a no-win situation even if he is found innocent as they just keep coming back with something else. 

"If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and -- once and for all -- put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance," he said in a statement released Thursday. "I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair."

"I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," Armstrong said. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today -- finished with this nonsense."


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Pappy13 on August 24, 2012, 07:37:52 pm
Because he can't win. Even if he ended up winning, no one will believe him anyway just like Clemons. People have already made up their minds. Besides, the USDA can't really take his 7 tours away from him, they don't have the authority. I think the tour organizers want this to go away as much as Lance does and they won't take his tour wins away.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: mecadonzilla on August 24, 2012, 09:52:35 pm
After a dozen or so people came out to testify he had been cheating, he had to give up the fight.  Charade over.

I wish they could take more from that classless cheater than his medals and victories.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Landshark on August 24, 2012, 10:21:30 pm
After a dozen or so people came out to testify he had been cheating, he had to give up the fight.  Charade over.

I wish they could take more from that classless cheater than his medals and victories.

He passed every drug test.  Word is some of those supposed "witnesses" are doing this out of spite and nothing else


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Pappy13 on August 24, 2012, 10:23:42 pm
He passed every drug test.  Word is some of those supposed "witnesses" are doing this out of spite and nothing else
And the ones that aren't are being blackmailed into testifying because they have all been caught on drug tests. The whole thing is a total sham.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Spider-Dan on August 24, 2012, 11:47:14 pm
This is an admission of guilt.  What, he doesn't have time to defend himself from these charges because he's busy training... for the future cycling events that he's now banned from?  Or maybe he's too busy doing all the endorsements that he has now lost.

This is his legacy and his livelihood.  You don't just get bored of keeping your name, legacy, and reputation out of the trash.  This pronouncement will affect not only his cycling career, but his charities and any other public involvement that he has for the foreseeable future.*  He will be the Barry Bonds of cycling.  But he's tired of defending himself?  Come on.

*unless he 'fesses up, in which case America will forgive him like we have forgiven all the other cheaters that 'fessed up, because that's what we do


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Cathal on August 25, 2012, 09:03:24 am
^^^ Anyone on the outside of this could easily say that and I am in full agreement. I don't know what it would be like to be the actual guy who the world is constantly after you and you have no way of convincing people after all of these years. Every final drug test being negative, but people coming out and saying you're guilty. I'm sure it gets tiring after doing this for over a decade and maybe he's been convinced that even if he kept on fighting, he feels that everyone would continue to believe he doped and cheated his way to 7 Tour victories. I don't know if he doped or not, but passing all of your drug tests should be a big reason to believe he was clean and most everyone is doing this out of spite.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: CF DolFan on August 25, 2012, 10:16:47 am
In all honesty I think people had made up their mind about him long ago. It's not like he would have accomplished anything by continuing to waste his resources. At this point Nike is standing behind him as well gifts to his charity have increased so it isn't like everyone is believing he is guilty. He is far from being a Casey Anthony or OJ Simpson and they were both acquitted.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: BigDaddyFin on August 25, 2012, 10:21:54 am
The question I have is based on what I heard on the SportsTalk Radio while I was driving the other night.  Supposedly the USADA can't strip him of his titles, only the ICU can.  And if they do, the guys that finished second and third were already caught doping, so what do they end up doing giving the title to the 4th place guy?  Do they vacate it?  I know little about cycling other than you ride a bike over a course as fast as possible, and aggregate time wins in Tour De France.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Pappy13 on August 25, 2012, 11:31:47 am
This is an admission of guilt.  What, he doesn't have time to defend himself from these charges because he's busy training... for the future cycling events that he's now banned from?  Or maybe he's too busy doing all the endorsements that he has now lost.

This is his legacy and his livelihood.  You don't just get bored of keeping your name, legacy, and reputation out of the trash.  This pronouncement will affect not only his cycling career, but his charities and any other public involvement that he has for the foreseeable future.*  He will be the Barry Bonds of cycling.  But he's tired of defending himself?  Come on.

*unless he 'fesses up, in which case America will forgive him like we have forgiven all the other cheaters that 'fessed up, because that's what we do
The public will completely forget all about this in 3 months. Lance did the right thing. If hundreds of clean tests won't do it, then nothing will ever prove you're not dirty.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: masterfins on August 25, 2012, 03:38:49 pm
I don't get that at all. In fact I have said before that I was surprised he continued to fight it. Even if he is guilty, I really don't care anymore. I mean he never failed a test in almost 15 years yet he was constantly defending himself. He was in a no-win situation even if he is found innocent as they just keep coming back with something else. 

"If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and -- once and for all -- put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance," he said in a statement released Thursday. "I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair."

"I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," Armstrong said. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today -- finished with this nonsense."


+1

The USADA was going to find him guilty regardless of the "arbitration".  It cost legal fees of $100's of Thousands of dollars to fight the accusations, why throw your money away when you already know the outcome.  Other cycling associations have backed Lance in this "investigation" by the USADA. 


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: EDGECRUSHER on August 25, 2012, 10:58:53 pm
The question I have is based on what I heard on the SportsTalk Radio while I was driving the other night.  Supposedly the USADA can't strip him of his titles, only the ICU can.  And if they do, the guys that finished second and third were already caught doping, so what do they end up doing giving the title to the 4th place guy?  Do they vacate it?  I know little about cycling other than you ride a bike over a course as fast as possible, and aggregate time wins in Tour De France.

To me, it doesn't even matter who they give the titles too. I mean, if someone walked up to you and said "Congratulations, you are the 2009 Heisman Trophy Winner", does it even matter? It's just a title from years ago that doesn't mean anything anymore because you didn't earn it. Sucks for the 4th place guy because he played by the rules, but the win is just on paper. No champagne.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsmooth on August 25, 2012, 11:41:06 pm
This is an admission of guilt.  What, he doesn't have time to defend himself from these charges because he's busy training... for the future cycling events that he's now banned from?  Or maybe he's too busy doing all the endorsements that he has now lost.

This is his legacy and his livelihood.  You don't just get bored of keeping your name, legacy, and reputation out of the trash.  This pronouncement will affect not only his cycling career, but his charities and any other public involvement that he has for the foreseeable future.*  He will be the Barry Bonds of cycling.  But he's tired of defending himself?  Come on.

*unless he 'fesses up, in which case America will forgive him like we have forgiven all the other cheaters that 'fessed up, because that's what we do

It is not a fair hearing. Even the judge noted that this seemed fishy the way the USADA was coming after him. The so called big evidence they had was two positive tests from 2009 and 10, plus the testimony of other cheaters who were actually caught cheating to win.
Oh yeah lets not forget the ICU was backing Lance's suit to stop this hearing...you know the actual international body in charge of cycling.
This is not an admission of guilt. This is a wasted witch hunt to try and establish the renown of the USADA.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Fins4ever on August 27, 2012, 12:00:13 pm
Lance has been fighting this for years and I don't blame him for finally getting "worn down". I can only imagine what his legal bills have been like. I think this is another clear cut case of the government flexing their muscle and bullying to get their way in a matter that they have no fing business.

On a positive note, I read that donations to Armstrong's "Cure Cance" non profit group is up 25%.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: AZ Fins Fan 55 on August 27, 2012, 07:39:26 pm
I too think this was a witch hunt....good for him for moving on with his life. He knows he won those races and that is all that matters.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsmooth on August 28, 2012, 02:49:27 am
USADA head recently stated the most they could have taken away from Lance was his last two Tour victories.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: masterfins on August 30, 2012, 12:28:58 pm
Reading the USADA's news release it stated they advised him they were going to investigate him and five others on June 12, 2012.  Sixteen days later on June 28th the investigation was over, the results were reviewed, and they advised him they were going to charge him.  Lance sued, and the lawsuit was dismissed on Aug 20th, afterwhich the USADA gave him until Aug 23rd to meet with an arbitration panel.  Communist countries don't even have that speedy of a trial system.  The USADA also said he would lose his winnings and any prizes, I want to see them try and collect that.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsmooth on August 31, 2012, 01:42:02 am
Reading the USADA's news release it stated they advised him they were going to investigate him and five others on June 12, 2012.  Sixteen days later on June 28th the investigation was over, the results were reviewed, and they advised him they were going to charge him.  Lance sued, and the lawsuit was dismissed on Aug 20th, afterwhich the USADA gave him until Aug 23rd to meet with an arbitration panel.  Communist countries don't even have that speedy of a trial system.  The USADA also said he would lose his winnings and any prizes, I want to see them try and collect that.

Not to mention the International Cycling Union supported Lance.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Fins4ever on September 17, 2012, 06:43:27 pm
Not to mention the International Cycling Union supported Lance.


It is shit like this that Big Brother needs to get out of. Clemons in front of Congress....TWICE!!! You gotta be kidding me. Country is 16 TRILLON (16,000,000,000,000.00) and the govt. is worried about crap like this???? Is it November yet?????

The sad irony is they have more money than you and will break you financially or wear you down emotionally until the bastards win. He did the smart thing and it is not an admission of nothing!

 I am surprised he wasn't suspended for riding with only 1 testicle. Unfair weight advantage!!!!


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: CF DolFan on October 22, 2012, 08:28:07 am
OK, obviously I was wrong. It's sad for two reasons. One because it never was what we thought. The other thing that bothers me is how he was able to continually pass drug tests. It just makes me wonder how many others that seem above average are really just ahead of the testing curve.   


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Fins4ever on October 22, 2012, 10:49:08 am
ESPN reported this morning that as many as 11 other cyclist threw him under the bus. Don't know the details.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Sunstroke on October 22, 2012, 11:16:10 am

When I was stationed in Berlin as an signal intell analyst during the 80's, I was drug tested regularly for three years (once every 2 weeks during first year, once per month the last 2 years). They tested specifically for THC.  During that time, I smoked hash pretty regularly, but never got caught...simply because I knew a way to beat the test.

Granted, the tests may have been very primitive back then compared to what Lance went through, but I believe the evolution of drug testing has been shadowed pretty closely by the evolution of ways to beat drug testing.  Bottom line: "Not getting caught" does not necessarily equal "not doing the deed."



Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: EKnight on October 22, 2012, 11:44:52 am
It just makes me wonder how many others that seem above average are really just ahead of the testing curve.   

I can tell you from some personal experience drug testing is pretty close to pointless. I was a tested strength athlete for over a decade, and I knew 20 or more guys who were completely open about what they were cycling and still passed the tests. If guys competing in powerlifting for little or no money, without access to all of the designer drugs and people to cover things that pro athletes have access to can pass tests, the pros can certainly do it. When was I convinced that more than half of pro athletes are on something? When a lanky 180 pound Luis Gonzalez jacked 57 homeruns in one season, after never hitting more than 31 in any season before or after. Massive strength and power gains from LUGO,  never to be repeated, and 57 was only enough to finish THIRD in HR's that year. -EK


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Spider-Dan on October 22, 2012, 12:08:57 pm
From ESPN (http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8536389/uci-agrees-strip-lance-armstrong-7-tour-de-france-titles):

Longtime sponsors Nike, Trek bicycles and Anheuser-Busch dropped him last week, and Armstrong also stepped down last week as chairman of Livestrong, the cancer-awareness charity he founded 15 years ago after surviving testicular cancer, which spread to his lungs and brain.

After the UCI decision Monday, another longtime Armstrong sponsor, Oakley sunglasses, cut ties with the rider.


I hate to say I told you so, but... well, OK, I don't hate it.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: masterfins on October 22, 2012, 03:20:01 pm
Just about any sports writer would say that the sport of cycling was filled with just about every cyclist using performance enhancing drugs during the time period in question.  I still think the whole investigation was a waste of taxpayer dollars so long after the fact.  Are they going to perform an indepth investigation of every other team that raced to determine if any of them used drugs?  Who's gonna get the trophy the 12th place team??  I'm sure Roger Goodell could find some Super Bowl players that used drugs, are we going to start taking away Super Bowl Trophy's??


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Phishfan on October 22, 2012, 03:24:04 pm
I still think the whole investigation was a waste of taxpayer dollars so long after the fact. 

This was not a government investigation. Does that change your opinion at all?


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: masterfins on October 22, 2012, 03:53:42 pm
This was not a government investigation. Does that change your opinion at all?
  No, doesn't change my opinion.  The USADA is partially funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy, a government agency, and also receives funds from the US Olympic Committee, which does receive some government funding from time to time.  So, indirectly there are taxpayer funds used.  Additionally, when the Judge who dismissed Armstrong's lawsuit calls into question the motives of the USADA in pursuing this investigation, I think that says something about the case.  According to the USADA's timeline the investigation took place during the 16 day period from 6/12/12 - 06/28/12, there's just no way they compiled all this information during that period.  Don't get me wrong I'm sure Lance used something at some period, but he got away with it (as did others), and I don't think we should be re-writing the history books 10 years after the fact with a lot of circumstantial evidence.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: MaineDolFan on January 16, 2013, 11:49:49 am
So, clearly, this wasn't a "witch hunt."

Turns out he was one of the biggest cheats ever. 

Two aspects of this burn me the most:

1:  His use of PED's most likely gave him cancer to begin with, he continued to use them after recovering.
2:  Dragging people into court and WINNING to clear his name...when he was lying the entire time.

Now it's out there.  The blood is in the water and the sharks are circling.  He won't have a penny to his name when this is all said and done, but he's finally done the right thing.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: masterfins on January 16, 2013, 12:19:28 pm
^^^ I disagree, I think the whole purpose of his confession is to get cash flowing back into his bank accounts, eventually.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: MaineDolFan on January 16, 2013, 12:21:23 pm
Obtained through lying, cheating and stealing.

He obtained money by defending his lies.  Some of his money was by dragging people into court who DARE accuse him of PED.  He should keep those funds, why...?


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: CF DolFan on January 16, 2013, 01:04:35 pm
He pushed his lies to the extreme for both fame and money. He can be forgiven but unfortunately for him he will also have consequences to deal with.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Sunstroke on January 16, 2013, 01:21:26 pm

I applaud any and all efforts he made to forward the cause of cancer research...but actions have consequences, and Lance's actions have been illegal and dishonest.

On a more positive note, hopefully Lance's fall will take those ridiculous little plastic bracelets with him...



Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsfins on January 16, 2013, 01:43:21 pm
Burn him at the stake....He should have to un-fuck Sheryl Crow as punishment for being a lying cheating bastard... :D He should not be allowed to say that he nailed her... :D ;D

 :-[ Sorry still in rant mode... ;D


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Fau Teixeira on January 16, 2013, 01:59:53 pm
un-fucking her isn't punishment .. it's a reward


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Dave Gray on January 16, 2013, 02:12:05 pm
Armstrong is a scumbag.  I don't care that he cheated.  I am happy that he did good things for cancer research.  But it takes a special kind of asshole to call in question and bad-mouth those that claim that you cheated, when you did.  Deny it all you want, but he was suing people for telling the truth.  Fuck him.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: AZ Fins Fan 55 on January 16, 2013, 02:18:38 pm
I was on board with the "witch hunt" and truly believed they were out to get him......

Now that he has admitted it I truly believe he is scum and I have no respect for him......great you finally admitted it but you should have had the ball (not a typo) to fess up right away and admit your mistakes.

Now you just look foolish after years of denial!!!!!!


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: CF DolFan on January 16, 2013, 03:35:24 pm
Lil B un-fucking someone and AZ talking about Lance's ball.  Where else can I get this type of entertainment!!!  ;D



Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Landshark on January 16, 2013, 03:45:52 pm
Now that he has admitted it I truly believe he is scum and I have no respect for him......great you finally admitted it but you should have had the ball (not a typo) to fess up right away and admit your mistakes.

Holy shit!!!!   LMAO!!!!


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsfins on January 16, 2013, 05:30:11 pm
I can't take credit for the Un-fucking,I think Stroke said it here a few years ago..I just remembered it...


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: mecadonzilla on January 16, 2013, 09:03:20 pm
There's a couple of people I wish I could un-fuck.   ::)



Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsmooth on January 18, 2013, 01:43:14 am
So he was the best athlete of the whole bunch of cheaters that made up the sport. The titles cannot be awarded, because everyone else who finished in the top of all those races has been nailed for cheating too.
Looking at his sport, it seems as he did nothing wrong as all the competition was doing the same thing.
When it comes to cycling....it is a sport that is really full of cheaters.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Pappy13 on January 18, 2013, 10:10:56 am
^^The only thing this has really proven is that drug testing of athletes is a sham. We might as well do away with drug testing because passing a drug test is meaningless.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Sunstroke on January 18, 2013, 01:47:46 pm

Really good editorial piece from Rick Reilly about how he was duped by Armstrong...

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8852974/lance-armstrong-history-lying (http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8852974/lance-armstrong-history-lying)



Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: dolphins4life on January 19, 2013, 03:57:28 pm
So how did he pass these tests?


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: EKnight on January 19, 2013, 04:03:25 pm
You can be nearly certain that by the time a drug is "testable" for, it's no longer used by professionals and has made its way down to your local gym. Performance pharmaceuticals are years ahead of the tests for them. -EK


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: dolphins4life on January 19, 2013, 04:22:10 pm
Doesn't really answer my question


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsmooth on January 19, 2013, 04:27:33 pm
It does not really matter how he passed these tests. He is no different than all the other top riders at the same time who also tested positive for PED's.
Cycling has got to be the dirtiest sport that regularly tests for PED's.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: dolphins4life on January 19, 2013, 04:39:54 pm
^^^^

So what do you think they should do to prevent cheating?

How can we ever be sure that any athlete is clean?


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: EKnight on January 19, 2013, 04:49:19 pm
What do you mean it doesn't answer your question? Of course it does- he passed the tests because they weren't testing for what he was on. How can we be sure our athletes are clean? Easy: I've presumed for years that none of them are. -EK


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: dolphins4life on January 19, 2013, 05:12:11 pm
I thought when you analyze a urine sample, everything shows up.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Phishfan on January 19, 2013, 05:14:50 pm
I thought when you analyze a urine sample, everything shows up.

No, tests don't just come back and tell you everything in someone's system. Tests look for specific markers within your body. If a drug is new the test would not know what marker to be looking for. That is a very layman way of describing it.


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: dolphins4life on January 19, 2013, 05:18:42 pm
^^^^

I'll have to talk to the techs who work in the lab I work at


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: EKnight on January 19, 2013, 05:38:10 pm
No, tests don't just come back and tell you everything in someone's system. Tests look for specific markers within your body. If a drug is new the test would not know what marker to be looking for. That is a very layman way of describing it.

Not only are they very specific, but testing for PEDs is not the same as a normal 5 or 10 panel test used for recreational drugs. PED testing is much more expensive and time consuming. -EK


Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: Pappy13 on January 19, 2013, 07:21:42 pm
So how did he pass these tests?
He didn't. 3 things contributed.

1) He was using EPO. There was no testing done for EPO back when Lance was winning all those tours. The samples however were frozen and retested once a reliable EPO test came out and found that they were heavily laced with EPO.

2) He did actually test positive for EPO in a race later, but because of his stature in the sport it was swept under the rug. The cycling association didn't want Lance to be found to be a PED user. Not only would it have been bad for Lance but it would have been bad for cycling as well.

3) Blood transfusions were used to used to clean the blood, but apparently this didn't really work all that well because once a test for EPO came out, Lance tested positive for it, so it was really 1 and 2 above that kept it from coming out.



Title: Re: Lance Armstrong
Post by: bsmooth on January 23, 2013, 12:56:56 am
^^^^

So what do you think they should do to prevent cheating?

How can we ever be sure that any athlete is clean?

Cycling is a joke with the level of cheating taking place. EPO has been rampant since the 80's. All the top riders during Lance's run has tested positive. Show a sport where all the top players tested positive for PED's for years.
As long as there is money and fame tied to winning, you will never get rid of PED's. All you can do is make it very hard to get away with it long term and ban anyone caught using them.