The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Saw this article (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-hyde-dolphins-vontae-davis-trade-0827-20120826-1,0,6678122.column) in the sun sentinal and it got me to thinking. Just to be clear, I'm not against trading Vontae, however I would have rather it would have been done in the off-season like the Marshall trade was done so that we could get something this year for him rather then next year. With that being said, I'll give Philbin some credit for doing something few head coaches have the guts to do and that's impart his will on a team. I've seen this happen before.

I lived in Dallas in '89 when the Dallas Cowboys were sold to Jerry Jones and their longtime head coach Tom Landry was dismissed and in came cocky head coach Jimmy Johnson from the University of Miami. Jerry and Jimmy didn't make any friends that first year, let me tell you. There were tons of people upset the way that Tom Landry was handled, just dismissed without so much as a thank you. Jimmy started jettisoning anyone that even looked crossed ways at him, it was his way or the highway, no excuses no matter who you were. The most talented player on the roster Herschel Walker was traded for 6 draft picks. That first year Jimmy and Jerry went 1-15. People were screaming for their heads!

But Jimmy drafted Troy Aikman that first year and Emmitt Smith the next and slowly they all turned the franchise around. Everyone got on-board the JJ train because if you didn't you were dropped off at the next stop. In a couple years they had built the Cowboys into a juggernaut winning back to back superbowls in '92 and '93.

Now, I'm not suggesting that Philbin is Jimmy Johnson or that Steven Ross is Jerry Jones. What I am suggesting is that we give them a little time to see how it turns out before we dismiss them. It can be done this way although it's not easy and it does require a little bit of luck along the way. For the most part I have liked what I have seen from Philbin. This move was tough to swallow at first because it won't help us for at least a year and I think Philbin is setting this team up for a long hard ride this year, but I'm okay with that as long as they are honest and upfront with us. Drop the "We are NOT rebuilding" BS. It's BS. Everyone knows it's BS. No, I don't expect you to come out and say that the Dolphins are going to suck this year or that we are giving up because I don't believe that's what we are doing, but I do expect you to say that you are building with an eye towards the future. Go with a youth movement. Bring in as many YOUNG guys as you want and give them a chance, just no more Chad Johnson's please. Cut David Garrard because he doesn't have much time left and keep Moore who's a nice backup and if he's okay with that role has a few years left in the tank and keep Devlin because he's shown progress and is young. Keep the rookie WR's and get rid of Naanee, Pruitt, Moore and Wallace who have shown nothing more than average ability in 3 plus years in the league.

And lets all start praying that some of these young guys start developing because while I'm okay with watching a team rebuild for a year, I don't want it to stretch for 3 or 4 years and I'm not willing to see it stagnate either. Every year the total number of wins should go up. Even 1 year that it doesn't and Philbin should be gone. The biggest problem I had with Sparano/Parcells is that we allowed them to hang around much too long. The first indication that things weren't headed in the right direction was the 7-9 season after the 11-5 campaign. I cut them a little slack that year because I thought the 11-5 season was a little lucky, but then the second 7-9 season and I knew that Sparano was not the answer and he should have been let go then.

So I'll give you a chance Philbin and I recognize it could be ugly this year, but by year 2 I expect to see results and every year after that as well. The first year we don't improve, you're out.

Nice write-up.  I like your points.   I like the idea of going with the youth movement.  There will definitely be some lumps taken early on, but we should see steady improvement in the following years like you said.  I wish we had another solid WR to go with Bess and help Tannehill out.  Someone from that WR corps needs to step up now.

Philbin isn't dumb. This is probably his one and only shot at being a head coach and he is gonna do it HIS WAY! If he goes down it will be HIS WAY so there are no regrets. Maybe his way works, maybe it doesn't but it is gonna be done his way! And considering the place he came from and where he has been it's a safe bet to say HIS WAY has a track record of success. He just now has to execute the plan.

Next offseason Miami will have roughly $45 mill in cap money to spend ( I have seen $50 mill and I have seen $40 mill as the number depending on the source) with really only Jake Long to re-sign now. They will probably have 3 of the first 50 draft picks and 5 of the Top 80 (unless Indy and Chicago have a SuperBowl rematch).

This was a good football trade any way you slice it. Whether Miami was a super bowl contender or rebuilding like they are, this is a good trade!

I'm glad that this will bring the Ireland situation to a head, one way or the other.

Ireland and Philbin have basically put it on a billboard: if we are not in the 2013 playoffs, we should both be fired.  So far, they have chosen to get rid of the 2011 team's best WR, best CB, and best safety (and all of them were SIGNIFICANTLY better than the next best Dolphin at that position).  When you gut a team like that, you open yourself up to increased scrutiny; you'd better be able to handle the pressure.

For me it's not Marshall, Johnson, Vontae or anyone else that has left individually. It's the whole picture. Shit now people are talking about Dansby might be gone. If that's the way they want to do it, fine. But as far as I'm concerned you keep your best players and give yourself the best chance to win NOW, even if you are rebuilding. If we are gonna stockpile draft picks for next year we might as well get rid of all of the good players we have that we can "get something" for, and just totally start over. Hell they might as well trade Bush to Detroit. Maybe Ireland can get a 3rd rounder, an autographed Barry Sanders jersey, and a McNuggets Happy Meal. Ireland should have been walked out before any of those players in my opinion.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HIRE A NEW HEAD COACH EVERY 3-4 YEARS!

I agree with the original post.  You gotta give this time.  Coaches bring new systems and want players that fit said system.  You bring in a new coach and expect magic to happen - it doesn't work that way.

Philbin needs time, hopefully he and Ireland work well together and form a strong team.  You gotta give him time to build with his guys in his system and it will work out.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have time.  I give him exactly two years.

right.  Two years is PLENTY of time to turn a crap-fest 6-win team with cap problems into a super bowl contender.  ::)

Sorry, but you need to have more patience - and this is directed towards the entire fan base.  Changing coaches every 3 years just leads to more ineptitude and starting over.  And that's what you're seeing right now.

How long did it take Sean Payton to turn around the 3-13 Saints?
How long did it take John Harbaugh to turn around the 5-11 Ravens?

You seem to be under the impression that it takes years and years to go from trash to contenders.  There is no such thing as a 4-year-plan.  Changing coaches every three years only leads to more ineptitude and starting over when you hire bad coaches.

Unless maybe you're saying that Miami should have held on to Wanny, Cameron, or Sparano just a little bit longer?

You don't think that Harbaugh and Payton walked in and picked up all the same players and suddenly turned them into contenders.  They had room to bring in players that fit his system, or they already had talent on the team.  Do you think Drew Brees might have had something to do with bringing Payton along?

Sparano came in his first season and took a 1-15 team and won the Division.  Does that mean Sparano was awesome too?

Just don't understand the mentality that you have to win NOW.  The Dolphins are a mess, have been for 8-10 seasons.  No talent, no home-grown players.  The longest-tenured guys on the team have been around since 2007 (Fields and Soliai).  Longest tenure is in thier 5th season on the team?  Don't you see a problem with that?

Player turnover is caused by coaching turnover.  We need to start a tradition of drafting quality guys and keeping them around and allowing churn at the bottom of the roster.  Key puzzle pieces need to be identified.  Hopefully, Tannehill is the first piece.  Beyond that - Bush (last year of contract), Jake Long, maybe Sean Smith?  Who else?

There are a ton of holes to fill and, I'm sorry, outside of your two extreme examples, its not an overnight process.  I want to see year-to-year improvement, and I'm not expecting a Super Bowl in 2012 or 2013.

To clarify my previous point... the Dolphins are a football team, not a Boy Scout troop.  Conventional wisdom is that when you have a lack of talent, you don't make it your priority to get rid of your most talented players.  So when you defy the conventional wisdom (like Ireland and Philbin have), it means one of two things:

a) you're smarter than everyone else
b) you're dumber than everyone else

Belichick does this kind of stuff all the time; look at the way NE dumps players they don't want to pay, or makes decisions (e.g. 4th down in Indy) that the talking heads scream about.  But that's OK, because he's already proven that he's smarter than everyone else, so his job is not at risk.

Joe Philbin is not Bill Belichick, and if he's going to act like he is, then he's going to be expected to prove it.

How do you know this?  They haven't even suited up for a single snap that means anything.

While I agree with your concept that it does not take as long to turn around teams as some people think, I do not like this example. The Saints were a middle of the pack team dealing prior to their 3-13 year and were dealing with Hurricane Katrina aftermath during it. That team was really not as in as bad a shape as most 3-13 teams would be.

Extreme examples?  Which teams have risen to the top by following the plan you laid out?

NYG?  They won their division in Eli's second season, and won the title in his fourth (a year where Coughlin was on the verge of being fired, it bears mentioning).
GB?  They blew everything up in 2008 (finishing 6-10), made the playoffs the next year, and won the title the year after that.
Pre-2011 IND?  They were 13-3 in Peyton's second season.
PIT?  They were 6-10 in '03, drafted Big Ben, and immediately went 15-1 in his first season and won the title in his second.

What team has followed this slow-but-steady plan you mention?  Who is your blueprint?

Bill Belichick has won 3 Super Bowls.  Joe Philbin is not Bill Belichick, for all the same reasons that Ryan Tannehill is not Tom Brady.

Furthermore, even Bill Belichick didn't arrive in NE and immediately start acting like he has a proven track record.

Are those the exceptions or the rule though? Why are some franchises seemingly unable to get out of ineptness no matter who the coach is? Seems like the Browns, Chiefs, Dolphins, and Raiders have been bad for the better part of a decade no matter who was coaching- including some big names. -EK

Do you mean "middle of the pack" like the 7-9 and 7-9 2009 and 2010 Dolphins?  Teams that were in the thick of the playoff hunt in week 16?

Answer: the players.

Some franchises make the right choices (Brees, Rodgers, Tuck, JPP, Gronk, Wilfork).  Others do not.

I believe they were 8-8 and in the playoff hunt.

I would also like to emphasize that I'm not saying that Philbin/Ireland don't know what they are doing.  I'm saying that they have stepped up their timetable for producing results with their brash actions.

Not that I'm totally disagreeing with you, but Dallas was the slow but steady plan that I pointed out in the first post. 1-15, 7-9, 11-5 (playoffs), 13-3 (Champs). But you could see that by year 2 they were headed in the right direction. That's all I'm looking for.

I have a problem with these examples,or just about any example you throw out there....

To Brian's Point - Since 2000 The Miami Dolphins have changed owners,gone through how many General managers (Wannstedt, Spileman,Saban,Randy Mueller,Parcells/Ireland ) front office changes,and Head coaches? (Wannstedt,Bates,Saban,Bates,Sparano,Bowles,Now Philbin)

Since 2000 Just head coaches - I think most of them haven't changed their front office multiple times,I'm not sure all the inner workings of each team...
NYG - 2 Fassel,Coughlin
GB - 2 Sherman,McCarthy
IND -3 Mora,Dungy,Caldwell
NO- 2 Hasslett,Peyton
Pit- 2 Cowher,Tomlin
Bal- 2 Billick,Harbaugh

Every time we rebuild we have more trash to throw out,because they aren't his guy's...

I'm hoping this time,We're on the right course,but I can't compare the Dolphins to any other franchise....I have hope...That maybe we can win 4-8 games this year,7-9 next year...

Edited I forgot to add Baltimore Ravens....

fins problem has always been a personnel problem more so than a coaching problem.

what blows my mind is that the same guy that has had a big say in building said crappy roster for the past 5 years, is the same guy you are going to give 3 more years to build a championship contending team? defies all logic...

I don't believe that trading away Vontae Davis and cutting Chad Johnson is "brash" and proclaiming a "proven track record" as you state.  I believe these are simple cases of guys underperforming or not fitting into the coach's plans, and wanting to remove the distraction from the team.  Plus, as far as I know, the Colts came asking for Vontae, not the other way around.

Vontae is a marginal talent that doesn't apply himself.  If Ireland squeezed Indy for a 2nd, that's a huge win!
Chad was a marginal talent that provided media distraction.
Marshall is a good player, but cost too much money as well as the media distraction.

I support everything Philbin has done so far and I hope he continues.  I believe he can make the playoffs next season, but as I stated earlier - even Sparano looked great his first year.

I want to see year-to-year improvement.  That's enough for me, at this point.

You are confusing effect for cause.  Miami didn't keep one coach for 25 years because they really liked Don Shula's personality... they kept him because they were winning.

Fassel was fired for losing.  If Coughlin would have missed the playoffs in '08, he would have been fired, too.
Sherman was fired for losing.  McCarthy is a legitimate example of a coach who GB stuck with, though.
Mora Sr. was fired for losing.  Dungy retired and Caldwell got exactly three years (including a SB trip) before he got the hook.
Jim Haslett was fired for losing.  Sean Payton has been the best coach in NO's history, by a mile.
Cowher retired.  Tomlin has done nothing but win.
Billick got a relatively long leash after his SB win.  Harbaugh has done nothing but win.

So yes, if you have a coach that's doing his job (winning), he gets to keep it.

And not to belabor this point, but if your argument is that the Dolphins are going through coaches too quickly, it is only reasonable to ask which coach you think they should have kept.  Do you think Wanny deserved a few more years?  Was Cameron unfairly yanked?  Did Sparano get fired too soon?  These decisions are not made in a vacuum.

1) I'm talking more about Marshall than Johnson.
2) If your best player at a position is "underperforming" or doesn't "fit into your plans," that sounds exactly like a coaching problem.  Your job as a coach is to get the best from your players, and to design your plans around the players you have, not the players you wish you had.  For all their proclamations about the High Character that they want from their players, Philbin/Ireland have done jack squat to replace Marshall or Davis.
3) I'm sure plenty of teams have "asked" about Cameron Wake or Jake Long.  That doesn't mean you have to do something about it.

I think we're just going see it differently...

I feel you were implying it's all on the coach, that's what I disagree with....I feel it's an organizational thing,and every team situation is different...It wasn't just Sean Peyton,John Harbaugh,Coughlin,Mcarthy,Dungy,Tomlin...The whole organization...(As you said) They picked the right coaches,to try to make their personnel better...IMO Miami can't do that right now


In the Dolphins organization,the people making those decisions keeps changing.Since Shula has been gone,We've been a run the ball and play good defense team, organization philosophy...How to get those keeps changing,through who's making the personnel decisions of picking players,and picking the coaches....

We're not bringing in Coaches,to take our talent,and make it better,We keep trying to rebuild the team because this guy is our "Savior".

I see it it's more than just the coach, it's the whole organization.We agree that

We're not seeing it the same way...

IMO Philbin, is trying to do what they did in GB, build through the draft,and take develop other people's cast offs...IMO doesn't take 2 years,to build this way...It was the plan I think Parcells and company was doing,till they got overconfident,and started going the FA route because we did so well in '08...

I think in Philbin,We're making the biggest shift in Philosophy in 15 years.Every press conference isn't we're going to "Run the ball and play good defense" "Gringd it out" The Fundementals..(Makes me want to hump his leg,not hearing those things every press conference  :D)

QB is an emphasis,versus get QB that will not fuck it up and lose us a game.

I feel I can't blame Philbin for Spilled milk of the past...Right now...He has his own milk.I think he needs to get rid of the guy's that aren't going to productive,now or down the road...

I don't think the '90s Cowboys team is a viable model for the Dolphins.

1) Miami has no Herschel Walker to trade (this is one of the most important parts of the Cowboy model).
2) With the existence of a salary cap, even if Miami could acquire a bunch of outstanding players at once, they wouldn't be able to keep them.

The irony is that of any team in the league, Miami is the MOST qualified to say that that particular Cowboy model will not work again.  Why?  The Dolphins hired the creator of that plan, and he was unable to replicate it in Miami.

Don't remind me.  JJ set back this team's offense 10 years with his picks during the 4-year stint.  I believe he drafted a total of 7 RBs during this time (ALL Busts, mind you) and one WR of note, Yatil Green.  He drafted no one to help Marino and the offense.  You look back at those rosters and based on who he had on offense, he was unbelievably lucky he had those records of 9-7, 10-6. 

Starting to think there is only 2 possibilities for Philbin. He is going to clean house and build this the right way and in 2-3 years he will have praised heaped on him for turning this entire franchise around.

OR

He is Josh McDaniels 2.0 who will run everyone out in a year, alienate every player on the roster and the entire fanbase. Then be run out of town himself very quickly

For the first one to happen he is going to have to win a few games this year and have Tannehill play well so people (players/fans) have a reason to believe going forward.

Thank you.  This is exactly what I am saying.  Philbin/Ireland's actions have completely removed any middle ground; he will be either an amazing genius or a complete idiot.

Well, I think we can say from experience that he needs to win more than one game.  That being said, they need to get a win early (no more 0-fer circus like 2007 or 2011) and he probably needs to finish with at least 3 wins.

I have said from Day 1 I don't care if Miami goes 2-14 this year, as long as Tannehill plays well. A horrible year will do wonders for Miami long-term. Another high draft pick, hopefully they can trade down to a QB hungry team and stockpile more picks and then begin to load up on players. As long as Tannehill is in place and the QB position is accounted for, rebuilding the rest of the team is much easier. The biggest and most important chip needs to be out of the way though so Tannehill must play well. Nobody is expecting greatness, just play well.

I think that would depend on your definition of playing well. I don't think I can recall any teams with similar records where I said the QB played "well".

I mean if the WR's are dropping balls left and right that ain't on Tanny. If the o-line is awful and he has no time, that ain't on him either. If he isn't a turnover machine that is a major plus. If we are losing because he has zero help the intelligent fan can see that.

Too bad the vocal majority often doesn't consist of "intelligent fans."

Jeff Fisher could have went 1-15 or 2-14 and kept his job.  He has some coaching capital.

Joe Philbin does not.  This is basically Cam Cameron redux (not necessarily the results, just the scenario).  If MIA is without a win and it's week 11, Philbin and Ireland will be exploring exciting new employment opportunities.

And as Phishfan said, I'm not sure how Tannehill could be having a "good year" if the team has less than 3 wins and it's near the end of the season.

P.S. It goes without saying that if Tannehill plays horribly, the entire team will be blown up.

^^ disagree.  Cam Cameron got fired because they brought in Parcells.  Had they not gone the Parcells route, Cameron would have likely been helped to season 2.

I don't see how you can endorse giving up on a rookie head coach after only 11 games.

That is just as much cause as effect.  Do you think the ownership would have been calling Jon Gruden or Bill Cowher if Tony Sparano was 0-13 in 2008?  Of course not, because Sparano was Parcells' avatar, and Parcells could have went 0-16 and kept his job (in 2008, anyway).  I suppose you could argue that if Parcells turned down Miami, Cameron would have kept his job... but then again, if Harbaugh hadn't turned down Miami, Sparano would have been fired after the 2010 season.

This is actually a perfect segue into my next point: if we're in week 15 and Joe Philbin has one win, you don't think Bill Cowher's phone is going to be ringing?  What would you say then... Philbin only got fired because they brought in Cowher?

Endorsing has nothing to do with it.  Like Cameron and The Ginn Family, Philbin has put a bullseye on his back with his brash moves.  If they pan out, great.  If they don't, well, Cam Cameron can tell you that being a coordinator isn't the worst gig in the world.

+1 I laughed out loud in my cubicle. 

I disagree with this statement.  Cameron would've been fired, Parcells or no Parcells.  Cameron had to go, not because of the results of the season, but because he lost the locker room.

If Ross fires Philbin after 1 year, even if its only 1 or 2 wins, NOBODY the likes of Cowher, Gruden, Holmgen...etc will want to come to Miami. Ross would be committing owner suicide!

I don't want to build a team to be mediocre 2013-2014,or a few years down the road.I want a team to win Superbowls,and be a dynasty again...be the Patriots...If means trading away Brandon Marshall,and Vontae Davis,whomever the player it is to to get us closer to it...Buh-bye.

Agree. Firing yet another coach after one year regardless of record is the worst possible scenario.

You asked for an example, I gave you one. Whether or not it will work for the Dolphins is up for debate.

The most important parts of the Cowboys rise to glory was the additions of Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith, neither of which were acquired with draft picks from the Herschel Walker trade. In fact I think someone once showed that only 1 or 2 players that were even on the Super Bowl team came from the picks acquired through the Herschel Walker trade. Even so, Miami has already received 4 draft picks from trading Marshall and Davis. How those draft picks impact future Dolphins teams remains to be seen.

That's possible. The Cowboys had to let quite a few of the players that helped them get to the superbowl go.

I already said that it requires more than just the right guy, it requires a little bit of luck as well, but just because Jimmy couldn't repeat his success with the Dolphins doesn't mean that it can't be done.

Incorrect. Emmitt Smith was indeed from one of the Vikings picks.

Actually they did not use the Vikings pick (#21) to choose Emmitt Smith. They traded it along with another pick of theirs to move up 4 places to pick Emmitt Smith (#17), but after looking at what they did get for the picks, it was more than I realized, so I'll back off my earlier claim a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

Still Miami has already receieved 4 picks from trading away Marshall and Davis. It's certainly still within the realm of possibility that they get a few players that could be valuable to them.

Miami has received a 2nd, two 3rds, and a conditional 6th from trading Marshall and Davis.  (One of these 3rds has already turned into Michael Egnew and B.J. Cunningham, who are both struggling to even make the team.)  This is a far, far cry from three 1sts, three 2nds, a 3rd, and a 6th (what JJ got for Herschel).

In any case, in the salary cap era, it is much more common for a team to immediately catapult from rubbish to royalty than it is to slowly build up over 3+ years.  Having experienced 2007 and 2008, we should all be intensely aware that the difference between being the worst team in the league and an 11-win division championship season is basically lucky bounces and reliable QB play.  It takes a bit more than that to be a perennial contender, but if Philbin is even remotely good at his job (and if he and Ireland have properly judged Tannehill), 9 wins should be the absolute floor for the 2013 season.

Just saw this on the Herald's website:

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/28/2971247/vontae-davis-trade-leaves-miami.html#storylink=cpy (http://Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/28/2971247/vontae-davis-trade-leaves-miami.html#storylink=cpy)

Dansby's reaction to the Vontae trade:

“He’s a great player, one of the best corners in the game. I’m not sure about the direction of the team. That’s not my place. My place is to play hard and be the leader of men.”


One of the best??? Is he watching game film????

Right now, the team is so horrible that there's really no way to know whether he knows what's he's doing.  At least he's trying to get some extra draft picks next year, so at least there's hope.  I can only ask that the fans give him a fair chance to turn this mess around.  If they don't, the team's reputation could easily get so bad that nobody with any talent would ever want to coach here.