The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Here's why...it's the best possible choice to complement this year's pick Ryan Tannehill. This whole year has been about 1 thing, the development of Ryan Tannehill. Next year the whole year should be about 1 thing, putting Ryan Tannehill in the best possible position to succeed. The best way to do that is to give him as many weapons as possible. If you have to trade down to pick a WR, do it. Even if you have to reach for a WR, do it. The number 1 best way to ensure that this year's number 1 pick and this whole year is a complete waste of time is to NOT give Tannehill another offensive weapon to throw to next year. The biggest problem on this team is the offense and the biggest reason why is the lack of playmakers on offense.

I've seen a lot people advocate getting a WR in free agency, but I just don't see it. All the WR's that are gonna be available that could be a #1 their best years are behind them. They may have been #1 receivers at one time in their career, but they just aren't anymore. If they were, the team they are with now wouldn't let them go, it's as simple as that. The best way to get a #1 WR for this team is to draft a WR in the first round. If you get the right one he can help your team as a rookie even if it takes a while to become your #1. Even if he's a decent #2 that will help this team and allow Bess to move back into the slot where he really should be.

If you want to help this team in free agency, go after a TE. TE's are hard to find in the draft, but you can get one through free agency. Sign Finley if he's available. Finley and a first round WR would give Tannehill the weapons he needs even if it takes a while for that WR to really produce. That is the best possible way to get this offense moving in the right direction and getting the offense moving in the right direction is the best possible way to get this franchise moving in the right direction. Everything else is good enough as is to win in the NFL, take a WR and hope you pick the right one. just like you did with Tannehill last year. If you don't you risk both of the picks going for naught.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

No good WR worthy of a first-round pick in the draft, plenty of quality WRs entering free agency.  I could not disagree more with your post.

The last thing this team needs is to waste a first-round pick on another desperate reach at WR like the Ginn Family.

They need a speedy and athletic receiver in the Calvin Johnson mold. A playmaker with explosive ability.

From all I've read, that guy doesn't exist this year.

I could see them bringing in a few more free agents, and drafting a guy or two in the middle rounds. Whoever they pick in their first three picks need to be immediate starters.

I would just like to point out one more thing when it comes to Ireland and receivers:

He has been a complete and total failure in this regard.

The only decent receivers on the team are Hartline (drafted in 2009, after Patrick Turner, mind you) and Bess (undrafted in 2008).  Everyone else has just sucked.  So I am not at all willing to bet Miami's future on Ireland's ability to draft a WR, least of all in the first round.

I'm 100% with Spider on this one...no value in drafting a second round caliber WR in the middle of round one.


Receivers currently in the NFL in the Calvin Johnson Mode

1) Calvin Johnson
2) Nope...that's it

Some WR's will emerge. They always do after the combine.

yeah, cuz running a 4.2 at the combine after the season is over is the same as proven gameday production. 

the 1 year we can actually draft a decent WR and there arent any :-(

They could have made a play for Blackmon last year, they could have made a deal to move up- what? 2 spots? The year they drafted Pouncey, they passed on Titus Young and Torrey Smith. The year before THAT, they actually traded BACk to pass on Demaryius Thomas and draft Odrick instead. WTF? Thomas is a beast! The year before THAT they left Hakeem Nicks on the board to take Davis. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer, but they've been in a position to draft a #1 or very good #2 WR (couple of Pro Bowlers in there), and they just suck at drafting WRs (to SpiderDan's point in the Marshall thread). -EK

I love your flexibility. A statement like this leads me to beleive you would rather grab another Ted Ginn just so you can say it was done in the first round.

The Dolphins should be searching Russia, Canada, China or the freaking moon to get receivers. I don't care what round they come in that is our number one need. No doubt about it. If we took a receiver in every round it wouldn't bother me at this point.

The last two receivers taken high by the Dolphins were Ted "Drop It Like It's Hot" Ginn, Chris "Paragon of Inconsistency" Chambers, and Yatil "China Doll" Green. 

No, I'd rather take a CHANCE on a WR then take a DE that we don't really need. They chose Olivier Vernon in the 3rd round last year to help Wake and I saw some good stuff from him earlier in the year. I say give him a chance to be the DE on the other side of Wake and take a chance on the best WR you can find even if you don't think he's necessarily a high first round draft choice. They haven't taken a high round WR since Ginn. You can't let that mistake prevent you from trying again. Miami would have made a mistake in my opinion passing on Tannehill just because Pat White and Henne didn't pan out and Tannehill was considered a reach at #8. It would also be a mistake to pass on perhaps the best WR in THIS draft just because Ginn was a bust.

Last year Miami needed a QB and they took a chance and so far, so good. Now they need to give him some weapons, so take a chance on doing that even if it's not a sure bet.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Well, here's the first problem with your logic:  Tannehill was not a reach at #8.  He had a better scouting grade than Cam Newton did.

edit: In fact, for context, here's the scouting grades for all first-round QBs since 2005 (all from ESPN):

2012:
(1) A. Luck- 99
(2) R. Griffin- 97
(8) R. Tannehill- 94
(22) B. Weeden- 86

2011:
(1) C. Newton- 93
(8) J. Locker- 90
(10) B. Gabbert- 96
(12) C. Ponder- 85

2010:
(1) S. Bradford- 97
(25) T. Tebow- 78

2009:
(1) M. Stafford- 96
(5) M. Sanchez- 95
(17) J. Freeman- 85

2008:
(1) M. Ryan- 98
(18) J. Flacco- 89

2007:
(1) J. Russell- 98
(22) B. Quinn- 97

2006:
(3) V. Young- 97
(11) J. Cutler- 96

2005:
(1) A. Smith- 98
(22) A. Rodgers- 99
(25) J. Campbell- 86

Notwithstanding the fact that some of these grades look ridiculous in hindsight, Tannehill's value at #8 was right about where it should be.

There were a LOT of folks who didn't believe that back when Miami was picking him and that's precisely my point.  A WR is gonna emerge as the top WR. I doubt very seriously that he's going to be considered a 2nd round talent, maybe a late first round talent or maybe a middle first round talent, so position yourself to get him (if you think he's the best WR in the draft.) My point is that I think they should target the WR they think is the best they can get and then figure out where to take him. If that's in the middle of the first round even if others think he's a late 1st or early 2nd, take a chance and take him. We have had years of taking the "safe" picks and guess what, we have one of the least "talented" teams in the NFL. Just because some picks that were "bang or bust" have turned out bust doesn't mean that philosophy is flawed, it just means you haven't hit it big yet. The "bang or bust" route requires repeated attempts. Some will fail. Hopefully some won't.

They can still come back and take a "safe" pick in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and fill in some of those other holes, but the biggest need is on the offense, so they shouldn't pass on the offense just because there isn't a surefire player there to take.

YIKES!!!!!!

Grain of salt folks. Those are ESPN's ratings. Fox Sports and CBS Sports (if I recall- I may be wrong) had quite different values, and graded RT much lower, making Pappy's claim of a reach at #8 pretty accurate. -EK

Feel free to post numbers to back that up.

Pretty easy to sit on the sideline and snipe at my fact-digging with broad, unsupported "I think other people had him rated lower" claims.

Let's not get too far off track here about whether or not Tannehill was a reach at #8, that's another thread. You know *I* didn't think he was a reach, I was just saying there was the talk of it being a reach and Miami pulled the trigger anyway, that's what's important here.

If you don't like the idea of taking a WR in the first round, then here's my alternative to getting a WR in free agency. Bundle your #1 pick maybe along with a #3 or something and TRADE for a TRUE #1 WR, not somebody's leftovers on the FA market. I don't have a problem with getting a veteran WR as long as it's a TRUE #1 and that he's still in his prime, not past his prime. I want someone that Tannehill is gonna be able to throw to not for 1 or 2 years, but for 8 or 10. I know someone is going to say that you can get that on the FA market, well the reality is that maybe some teams *might* be able to get that, but Miami ain't. Nobody WANTS to come to Miami, so if you are counting on nabbing Mike Wallace as a FA, I think you are fooling yourself. He's gonna go to someone with a shot at a SB or with a shit ton of money to throw at him, neither of which Miami has.

Mike Wallace is a 26-year-old coming off his first Pro Bowl appearance.
Greg Jennings is a 29-year-old coming off two consecutive Pro Bowls.
I don't know what else you want in a "true" #1.

For purposes of comparison, Andre Johnson is 31, Larry Fitzgerald is 29, Megatron is 27.

Miami is not going to trade for an All-Pro WR because that would make the (first) Brandon Marshall trade look like chump change.  This is as good as it gets when it comes to the FA WR market.

edit: As far as wanting to play for a winner, both Wallace and Jennings have rings already.  If they just wanted to play for a winner, they'd stay put.  They want to get paid.

I'd take Wallace, but Wallace ain't coming to Miami. You've seen Ireland's track record. Whomever gets Wallace is gonna have to back up the brinks truck and Ireland's not gonna do it for him.

I'm not sold on Mike Wallace and Greg Jennings is an injury problem every year.  Of the two I'd rather have Wallace.

Who else is out there?

I would also agree that trading for a WR would be a huge mistake.

Ireland did it for Marshall, did he not?

^^ and after 2 seasons, realized the mistake and cut his losses.  I don't know if he would be so quick to repeat the same mistake.

He traded for Marshall, he didn't sign him as a FA.

He traded for Marshall and immediately signed him to a huge extension, which negates the "Ireland won't pay a WR big bux" argument.

I have to ask:  what's the point of freeing up all this salary cap space if you won't spend it on a quality player at a position of glaring need?  Is it so we can sign 10 Anthony Fasanos and Kevin Burnetts in free agency?

Nail on the head with that statement

Dwayne Bowe. But Bowe has baggage and after Marshall and Ocho not sure if Miami will take a guy with baggage. I have no problem with Bowe has his baggage is nowhere near what Marshall's was or what Ocho did. So if they signed him I support that move.

And I'll bet he regrets signing him to that huge extension. I just don't see it happening. If they get Wallace in FA, then all bets are off for the draft, but I'll believe that when I see it. Right now from everything I read, Miami isn't even in the running for Wallace.

They still have to resign their own FA's. I don't think there's going to be nearly as much money for Miami to spend in FA as some think unless they part ways with several Dolphins FA's, but if they do that, then they have more to replace then just WR.

I posted them several times in the post draft threads because you kept going on and on about the ESPN pre-draft rating- which, btw, no other sources agreed with. Will dig them up if I can.

Edit- here's the NFL.com grade on him: 87, with Mayock's comment, "Mayock's take: "I have him rated as the 19th best player in the draft, which tells you I don't think he's ready to be a heavy contributor this year. I watched every throw he made on tape this year. All the out-breaking routes are phenomenal. Where he gets in trouble are the in-breaking routes where he stares the receiver down, pats the ball and throws interceptions."

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/ryan-tannehill?id=2532956

By comparison, they gave Luck a 97.0, RG3 a 95.0, and Weeden an 83.7. To me, an 87.0 with the #8 pick says stretch, as Pappy noted. -EK

^^ It doesn't matter.  They were picking at 8 and that's the guy they wanted.  So they took him.  They weren't picking 19.  There was no choice.

Pappy's point was that it was a reach at #8. I was agreeing. For some reason Spider is fixed on the ESPN pre-draft rating, when no one else had RT that high. My post had nothing to do with  whether there was a "choice." As Pappy noted and most media agreed, it was a reach. -EK

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/draft

National Football Post: Tannehill is a franchise QB. He can make all the throws, is a "plus" athlete and is only starting to scratch the surface of his potential. He needs to do a better job deciphering information. With time he could mature into one of the league's top signal-callers. NFL ceiling: Top-five quarterback. NFL floor: Inconsistent starter.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Czar-NFL-Draft-grades-per-team-042812

Texas A&M quarterback Ryan Tannehill was the obvious selection, considering his connection to offensive coordinator Mike Sherman, his head coach in college last year. And, yes, owner Stephen Ross wanted to draft a quarterback, considering the franchise hasn't had one since Danny Marino. But unlike Luck and RG3, Tannehill isn't ready to start in the NFL, because just two years ago he was a college receiver. He's had just 19 starts under center for the Aggies.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/archive/1273654

A closer look at the Dolphins' picks: Round 1/8 - Ryan Tannehill, QB, 6-4, 221, Texas A&M...The Dolphins felt his athleticism, footwork and accuracy made him the ideal fit for the west coast offense. BEST PICK: Quarterback Ryan Tannehill: According to coach Joe Philbin it only took the team's first-round pick three hours to grasp the Dolphins playbook. There's a good reason for that considering Tannehill used it the past two seasons playing for Mike Sherman as the Aggies starting quarterback. Sherman is now the Dolphins offensive coordinator.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tony_pauline/04/28/steals.reaches.2012draft/index.html#

Tannehill not listed as a steal or a reach (notably, Russell Wilson listed as a reach).

---

But let's be clear here... reaching for a QB is something to be expected, due to the payoff: a franchise QB is the difference between championship contender and perpetual doormat.  Reaching for a WR is a luxury that you do when your team is so solid that you're one piece away from a title.  When Atlanta reached for Julio Jones, that was a savvy personnel move; when the Dolphins reached for the Ginn Family, it was stupid and pointless.

It's really pretty simple, Miami desperately needed a QB, Tannehill was the best available QB at #8, so they took him.  Now you can throw out all sorts of BS about trading down and taking him later, etc, etc., but you have to have another team that wants to trade up to your spot to get a certain player, which wasn't going to happen.  The only other option was to trade away your whole draft (and maybe future years) to MAYBE get the #2 spot, which would have been crazy.

Again I want to point out that I didn't think it was a reach at the time, but it was tossed around as being a reach by a lot of people, that is what I was referring to. I WANTED Miami to take Tannehill at #8 and in no way did I think it was a reach to take him there. I even said it would have been a mistake to pass on him.

A "reach" is when you take a guy grossly ahead of his projected slot, typically a guy you could have got with a later-round pick.  Like taking a 2nd round guy in the first round. 

Taking a guy "10 slots early" is not a "reach" if he's the guy you want.  You take your guy at your pick - that's how drafts work.  You don't take the guy that Mel Kiper says is the 8th best talent on the board when you have a glaring need and your prospect is there.  What would you have preferred, trade down?  Well, that takes another team to accomplish.  Or instead they should have taken some other player and floundered with a 2nd or 3rd round QB again? 

I'm not sure how that "reach" argument holds any water...

^^This has nothing to do with my post or what you're earlier argument was. You have repeatedly used the ESPN rating to show RT's "grade" coming out of college as if it's the end-all-be-all for grades and the only rating system out there. I simply stated there were places that had him graded much lower, and when you asked me to provide them I did (CBS sports removes their grades after the draft, although I remember him being in the 80s for them as well). If you want to argue about what some people were saying about him before he was drafted, I'm happy to pull up what several scouts said (many said he had no business going in the first round at all) or what media people (ie, Golic, Brian Billick, etc) had to say, but that's a different thread- let's not derail this one further. My point is that he wasn't rated as highly by everyone as you make it seem with the ESPN ratings, and I showed that. 87 is not 97. Don't change the argument now by throwing in random quotes from people who have nothing to do with his pre-draft grade. Miami REACHED for RT by taking him #8, especially with the number of other holes they had to fill, and up to this point, he has not looked like a franchise QB.

Brian- multiple NFL scouts said he WAS a second rounder, had no business going in the first round, let alone top ten. That's a reach. -EK

Actually I would argue that a reach is when you take a player way ahead of your OWN board not anyone elses, all that matters is your own scouting and your own evaluation based on your team needs.

Who cares what Mel Kiper thinks and I care even less for what RIVAL NFL scouts think about a player. In the run up to the draft everyone makes comments designed to shift the value of their prospects and confuse other teams as to their intentions at a given pick. After the draft its easy to criticise any pick as a reach whether you agree with it or not because if you're right people will remember and if you're wrong people will forget.

I understand that you don't like Tannehill.  It is well documented on this and other threads.  However you need to be more objective and stop letting your hatred cloud reality.

He is a rookie QB, and has played better than expected.  He has potential to develop into a franchise QB.  Regardless of where he was drafted and where they scouts had him, with so many other teams looking for QB's, he would not have lasted until the Dolphins' 2nd round pick.  He likely would have been taken by Cleveland at 22, if not by someone else between 8  and 42.  If the Dolphins had no interest in Weeden, then it is not a reach.  You take your guy when you have the chance.  Period.

I guess that's where we disagree. There were reports that Miami was ready to trade up to #3 to take him if they needed to. This is exactly what Billick, Golic, and several other guys meant in saying he was a reach. Golic:

“Just because you feel your organization has taken a hit on quarterbacks is no reason to be taking a guy, even at your spot at 8, let alone trading up to 3.”

“By saying, ‘We better take a quarterback because people are starting to talk around here that we can’t get a quarterback, so let’s just grab the next quarterback available,’ that’s a bad road to go down.”

There were a LOT of guys who feel Miami did just that. It has nothing to do with my feelings on RT. I didn't tell Golic to say that or Billick to say RT's draft rise and imminent failure reminded him of JaMarcus Russell. I didn't tell the Arizona scouts that he was worse than Nick Foles or the Chicago scouts that he was a second or third founder. They came up with that all on their own, long before the season started. Enough people felt like Miami "reached" in drafting RT for me to feel comfortable agreeing with them. -EK

I agreed with you, AT THE TIME.  I also thought that taking Tannehill just cause he was the next QB on the list was a maistake, and that he would be a bust because he was rated so far below the others (RG3 and Luck).  Any talk of trading up just shows you how set they were on Tannehill being their guy.  The fact that they didn't take the bait is a tribute to the decision-makers.

But after 14 games, I've come around on Tannehill.  I feel like that's never going to happen with you, no matter what.

The issue I have with your reaching argument is that it is based on OTHER PEOPLE'S opinions, which is to say that because a majority of people, albeit rival teams say it's a reach, they must be correct and therefore you agree.

Now that we have beaten the Tannehill issue to death, can we get back on track? At the very least can we talk about next year's draft rather then the last one?

Regardless of whether or not there was "consensus" that Tannehill was a reach at #8, isn't this exactly what Pappy13 is saying Miami should do?  Draft a receiver in the first round, no matter what, regardless of how much of a reach it is?

Spider, I believe it is, and I think that's a poor approach for any position. There are no quality #1 WRs in the draft, so I agree they should go the route of FA. -EK

There are 3 or 4 WR's being considered late in the 1st round. Cordarrelle Patterson - Tennessee, Terrance Williams - Baylor, Keenan Allen - California, Tavon Austin - West Virginia. Miami is probably going to pick somewhere in the middle of the round, find someone you like (one of these guys or someone else) and take him, you'll have the pick of the litter.

Here's a couple of draft analysts that that think Miami should take a WR and they have him being taken at #11 which I think they will draft much lower then that, probably around 15.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock

If we could find someone to trade for Bess I would love to have Austin but we would still need to find a big target receiver somewhere.

can't believe we are still debating this Tannehill going #8 in December! lol lol

Tough to say what the Fins will do in Round 1 before Free Agency. But WR will be priority #1 this offseason above everything else.

If Dwayne Bowe or Mike Sims-Walker were the best options in FA, I might agree with the WR reach.  But there is a bumper crop of FA WRs this year; better to pay for a proven producer than roll the dice on a project.  I don't want another chicken-or-egg scenario where we sit around questioning whether Marshall is not scoring because Henne sucks, or whether Henne is failing because Marshall is washed up.

Totally agree. And lets be honest, EVERY agent of all the free agent WR's, the first call they are making is Miami this year. 1) Miami has LOTS of money under the cap. 2) Miami has a HUGE VOID at WR! To get their client max money....they are calling Miami first!  There is no doubt in my mind Miami is landing a big-time WR in free agency. Who? I have no idea but they are getting somebody.