The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Have you all been paying attention?  He's killing it....but doing so quietly.  He's scoring 30+ points a night, without authority.  He's just doing his thing, hitting his shots, and finding open guys.

I know this is reactionary, but I've never seen anyone play this good, ever.

he just tied an NBA record with moses malone and some other guy from the 60s .. something about 5 games in a row of 30 points and 60% shooting .. he's been hitting 75% of his shots over the past few weeks and about 55% of 3s .

Jordan's age when he won his first title: 28 years, 3 months, 23 days

LeBron's age when he won his first title: 27 years, 5 months, 22 days

I said this in the LeBron hating thread a couple of years back... if people had judged Jordan by the same standard as they were judging LeBron, they would think Jordan is a one-dimensional scorer who would never win anything.

In fact, Jordan himself alludes to this in the Dream Team documentary... he says that back then, people thought he was a good player, but that he could never measure up to Magic.

LeBron is having a season for the ages...the King in his Prime. Power forwards can't handle his speed, wing players can't handle his power...and nobody can handle the entire package. It just looks like every time he steps on the court, he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I haven't seen anyone intimidate other players like this since Jordan retired.

Make that 6 games in a row with 30+ points and shooting over 60% for the King...

Edited to add: I just read where the other two players who had done the 30/60 for 5 games, Moses Malone and Adrian Dantley, both stopped their streak at 5 games, so LeBron now holds the record at 6.

Prop bet bookie notes<g>:

* Miami plays at Oklahoma City on Thursday.
* OKC is the #2 team in the league in opponent field goal percentage (.429).
* The #1 team in that category, Indiana (.419), was the last team to hold LeBron under those numbers, 7 games ago.
* LeBron's last game against OKC (on 12/25) was close...he shot 60% (12 of 20) but finished a point shy at 29.

This run of his has just been amazing. All you can do is just sit back and enjoy the show.

Lebron clearly had a 7th game with 60% and 30+ points.  The game was over and out of reach.  Lebron was kept in the game and shot a really, really long 3 pointer that missed, sending him to 58%.

Now, I don't care about the record, but I wonder what was behind this.

Did Lebron not realize?
Did he just not care?
Or was he making a statement that the team is bigger than his individual record?

I could see not knowing, or not caring...but I doubt it was to make a statement.

I really thought he was going to stretch it to 7...and with a triple double to spice it up. What a monster.

IMO, and this is just me, but it seems like a lot of people are forgetting that Kobe scored over 40 points 9 games in a row (46, 42, 51, 44, 40, 52, 40, 40, 41) and 50 points 4 games in a row (65, 50, 60, 50) followed by a ho-hum 43 point night. LBJ is having an amazing streak, but I don't find it more impressive than either of those. -EK

Kobe doesn't play any defense.  If he did, he would be dog tired.  One thing about a Pat Riley molded team is that you either play defense or you don't play at all.

As dominant as LeBron is playing right now...if he was told it was in the best interests of the team, he could average 40 per game.

He's an All-Defensive first team selection nine times and 12 times on the team overall. That's, what- 8 times more than LBJ? Not following you there. -EK

Since 1999, Kobe has been on the NBA All-Defensive First- or Second-Team every year but once.  He is tied with Kevin Garnett for the most selections of any player ever.

Saying "Kobe doesn't play any defense" is like saying "Allen Iverson didn't shoot very much" or "Dennis Rodman wasn't that good of a rebounder."  I don't know if you could make a less accurate statement if you tried.

I agree, but the point is not what he could do, but what is is doing. In terms of flat out scoring, I believe MJ and Kobe could have surpassed 40 ppg with ease if they were given the same situation. Let's be honest, is LBJ EVER going to hit 81 or 62 through three quarters only to sit out the fourth? Doubtful. LeBron is having a great run- there's no doubt- but let's save some of the greatest of all time intimations for a bit. I still don't believe he's the best player of his generation. -EK

^^^ I count two "believes," both sides of "doubt" and one "Let's be honest" to underscore the validity of your statement ...Hell, that's good enough for me. Kobe is awesomeness incarnate!

[/end sarcasm]

How does that, in any way, invalidate anything I said? You initiated the hypothetical "could" and I responded. There's no chance in hell that LBJ could keep up with Kobe or Jordan if the only goal was to just score. Aside from the recent streak, we all know that James only plays three quarters anyway.  ;D  -EK

So, you've convinced yourself that your opinion passes for empirical proof. I applaud your conviction


And we all know that Kobe's best scoring moves are reserved for unwilling teenage hotel workers... ;D  -FU

Little bit more than my opinion. Kobe has 111 40 point games, 25 50 point games, 5 60 point games and an 80 point game. Jordan had 173 40 point games, 31 50 point games, and 5 60 point games. Lebron has 49? 50? 40 point games (not positive on that) and 9 50 point games. Is that better "empirical proof?"

Again- not taking anything away from LeBron- he's put together not just a "few" great games, but a month's worth of them this year. It's just MY OPINION that he's not the scorer (and never will be) that Kobe or Jordan is/was, and in terms of overall game, I'd still take Bird ahead of him at small forward. Why he's a small forward at his size is something I'll never understand, but that's just me. -EK

I think what's so impressive about this Lebron run is that is a really quiet 30 points per night.  He's scoring 30 in spite of not shooting a lot, and doing so many other things really well.

He IS having a great total season (not just these few games) in terms of efficiency, no doubt. I'm not sure how "quiet" it is, though, as I seem to hear about it daily on sports radio. -EK

I mean quiet in that it's not like he's taking all the shots.  It's that he's playing really reserved basketball and taking smart shots.  He's not just taking over games.  It's really impressive.

I can't disagree with that at all. -EK

You're missing the point.

The point is not simply that LeBron is scoring more than anyone else ever has; that is easily refuted.  It's the efficiency with which he is playing.  Yeah, Jordan or Kobe or (AI, or Shaq, or the Admiral) could outdo LBJ's scoring, but I don't think Jordan or Kobe have ever had the kind of non-scoring impact that LBJ is having on the game right now.  The only player I can remember with a similar ability to dominate the game without taking a shot every trip down the floor was Magic.

To put this in perspective, since LeBron entered the league in 2003, he has scored 20,410 points on 14,979 shots.  In the same time frame, Kobe has scored 20,275 points on 15,486 shots.  So not only has Kobe scored less, he has taken over 500 more shots to do it.

Do you want to compare assists?
LBJ- 5,097
Kobe- 3,658

Rebounds?
LBJ- 5,351
Kobe- 3,971

Steals?
LBJ- 1,277
Kobe- 1,082

So since LBJ has entered the league, he has outscored Kobe straight up, he has been FAR more efficient in scoring, and he's demolished him in the other aspects of the game.  What is the argument, again?

That points & rings matter. Until points and rings don't matter.

Case in point. There's the argument that a superstar makes everyone around them better. They point to Jordan's supporting cast. As opposed to Lebron's supporting Heat cast. Now keep this in mind. The year after Jordan retired the 1st time (93-94 season), the Bulls finished 2nd in their division. Made the playoffs. Made it to the 2ns rd of the playoffs. Now what happened to Cleveland, the year after Lebron left? Anybody? Did the Cavs make the playoffs? If you put Lebron on that Bulls team, they still contend for a title. You could almost argue the Jordan had more help, than Lebron in Miami. Take away Bosh & Wade. Then take away Pippen & Grant or Kukoc. Then look at the rosters.
Heresy, I know. But just think about it.

Of course he's scored more points. He's played 20 more games during that time. 20 more games is 500 points. This is a nonsense argument. No one said anything about any of those other stats either. You really want to pull stuff from no where, let's compare what really counts, and the reason that MJ said hell take Kobe over LBJ: 5-1 rings.

And you can't think of anyone who dominated a game without scoring? Did you just never see Bird or Hakeem play? -EK

So, the number of games played is more relevant to the number of points scored than the number of shots taken?

THAT is a nonsense argument...

How many more shots is 20 more games?  Please, do elaborate.

I just did.  And the reason why I did is that even when Kobe is focusing on scoring above all, he still took more shots to score less points.  Not only is LBJ scoring more points, he's also doing everything else better, too!  That's the hallmark of the best player in the league.  Not sure what else you are looking for.

Robert Horry has more rings than Kobe and LBJ put together.  What does being on a good team have to do with the discussion?

"The only player I can remember with a similar ability to dominate the game without taking a shot every trip down the floor was Magic."

You know the word Magic in that sentence refers to a person, right?  Did you think I was talking about the team in Orlando or something?

Not sure I ever saw Bird play a game where he wasn't a dominant scorer. The Great White Dope averaged 24.3 pts per game for his entire career, and led the Celtics in scoring 11 of his 13 seasons in the league (including seasons of 28.1, 28.7 and 29.9 ppg).

If you're going to cite an example of a player dominating without being a heavy scorer, go straight to Bill Russell and homestead there.

Lmao, yeah, LBJ looked great getting his shit swatted TWICE by Kobe last night. -EK

are you really beating your chest over a few plays in an all-star game?

^^ Serious. It's hilarious how everyone who can't stand the guy just waits for that moment to bash him. And when the man plays well or meets expectations, it's immediatly pushed to the side with, "Yeah well..."

In the All Star Game??  Really??   ::)

I'm not a hater. I think he's one of the top 2 players of his generation and I already said he's put together an amazing month. But the intimation that he's the best player EVER is ridiculous. He's won one title and at this point in his career is more known for choking and having to team up with two other superstars (as opposed to leading his team to a title) than he is known for consistently "greatest ever" play. I guess I should have expected this response from the this bipolar board though, who as a whole, seem to view everything in extremes. -EK

Are you talking about LeBron James at age 28, or Michael Jordan at age 28...because both would be accurate.

At this point in his career, LeBron James is known as the greatest player in the game, as was Jordan at the same age. The only people who still think about LeBron's early years in Cleveland are the haters who aren't willing to give the greatest player in the game his proper due.

And, for the record, I am a Phoenix Suns fan...NOT a Heat fan.

Save dumb comments like this for your Twitter account

True, but Lebron came into the league at 18, Jordan came in when he was 21. Jordan won a title in his 7th year and Lebron in his 9th after getting together with two other superstar players. Jordan had 3 titles by his 9th year. And Jordan sat out almost his entire 2nd year, only starting 7 games (playing 18 total) in 1985/86. And it's true that a lot of people around the league and media were rumbling that Jordan, while he was a great player, couldn't win a championship being the league scoring champion. And lets not forget Jordan played in an era where hand checking was legal and defenses actively tried to beat him up without the repercussions there are today with replay/Flagrant 1/2 calls.

Lebron has had a great season this year after having a great post season last year. The run he has been on lately is incredible, and he is the best player of this generation. But he is not at Jordan's level yet......he may get there at some point.

Through 9 years of their careers:
            Games Points  Asst   Reb    Steals   Turnovers
Jordan  667    21,541  3935  4219  1815    2006
James   689    19,045  4751  4943  1194    2299

If you take out the year he started only 7 games, Jordan averaged: 28.2, 37.1, 35, 32.5, 33.6, 31.5, 30.1, 32.6 in those 8 years.

Lebron's streak of efficiency and scoring in the last 2 weeks has been incredible, but you could pick out stretches of play from all the greats of the game. Lebron is already one of the greats....no doubt. You could pick out many stretches in NBA history......Jordan's run in 1989 where he had 10 triple doubles in 11 games, averaging 33.6 pts, 10.8 Rbs, 11.4 Ast.

Lebron has been great and will be for years......lets hope he doesn't retire and go play minor league baseball for the Marlins for a few years.

It's not like Jordan was off in the jungles of Vietnam from 18-21; he was busy gaining experience in college.

Age is age.  It's not like the league is going to kick LeBron out after a certain number of seasons because he's had an unfair advantage; they'll kick him out when he's too old to keep up, like everyone else.

Let's also not forget that Jordan's era was patty cake compared to the era of Wilt and Russell.  You can apply this argument to anyone.

At age 28, LeBron has three conference championships, one NBA championship, and three NBA MVPs.
At age 28, Jordan had one NCAA championship, one conference championship, one NBA championship, and two NBA MVPs.

Those are pretty fair terms of comparison in my book.

Your notes on Jordan's scoring are nice... do you want to compare Jordan's assists/rebounds/steals next?  See, the thing is, while LeBron can keep up with pure scorers like Bird/Jordan/Kobe, he's also contributing much more in other facets of the game.

LBJ isn't really the same kind of player as Jordan.  He's closer to Magic or Oscar Robertson: someone who affects the entire court.

Yes, but you are comparing the age in which they won their first NBA championship, Jordan didn't have the opportunity to win an NBA championship from 18-21. And sure, you can apply the "era" argument to anyone, but we are comparing these two players. It's just a fact of the eras they played in....that's all.


In fact I did if you look at my last post...I wasn't selective about the information I posted. James had 22 more games played in those stats posted, he had 700 more rebounds and 800 more assists while Jordan had 600+ more steals and 300 less turnovers. Whether you want to use regular stats or an aggregate "win shares" both are phenomenal players. Lebron has lead the league in win shares the last 4 years and Jordan did it 9 years in a row that he was in the league(minus the 2 years he took off for baseball).

I wouldn't disagree with him being more like Magic or Oscar than Jordan. Lebron is a physical freak of an athlete but has just recently really come into his own and starting to get that killer instinct. Jordan could do all those other things if he was asked to. In 1989 when they put him at the point he averaged 32.5 pts, 8 Rbs, 8 Ast. He had 44 double doubles, and 15 triple doubles. If you think Jordan didn't affect everything on the court you must not have watched much of his games.

All I'm saying is Lebron will probably be mentioned as one of the top 5 players to ever play the game if not the greatest depending on where he ends up with titles. But it's not really fair to compare them yet...Jordan is widely regarded as the greatest of all time. Maybe Lebron will get there over the next 5-6 years.

This may be the first and only time I will ever see anyone say Michael Jordan did not affect the entire court. I'm curious how you came up with that.

Now as for Lebron, I do not have a lot of love for the guy but I can admit he is likely the best player of his generation. I can also admit he is one of the all time greats. I cannot see how anyone can objectively say he is the all-time greatest at this stage though.

I am curious as well, considering the Bulls never made it past the second round of the playoffs without him.  That proved that Scottie Pippen was nowhere near the go-to guy that Jordan was.

Jordan affected "the entire court" in the same way Kobe, or Shaq, or any other prolific scorer affects the "entire court"... just more of it.  Do you really need the difference between Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan explained to you?

Here's a hint:

What kind of player is Jordan without his scoring?
What kind of player is Kobe without his scoring?
What kind of player is Magic without his scoring?
What kind of player is LeBron without his scoring?

Anyone who said Jordan was the all-time greatest after his first ring would have been an idiot or incredibly biased Bulls/Tar Heels homer.

No one is saying that LBJ can hang up his shoes tomorrow and retire as the greatest.  All that I'm saying is that he's farther ahead than Jordan was at his age.  That's it.

I don't know what you are really trying to say here....if ANY ONE of those guys decided to dominate in one or more other faucets of the game they would. Jordan was a 9 time 1st team All-Defense...if he would have been asked to play PG in more years he would have been one of the best at that. If he was told to play more in the post he could have been a darn good rebounder.

Every one of those players is different than each other. The comparisons make you sound like you are backtracking a stupid comment (which it was). Michael Jordan was more than a prolific scorer and you know it. Was he a prolific scorer, yes. Was he also a great player in other aspects, yes.

As for your second point, I never said you have annointed James the best ever, but some people have. I was just adding that to keep it on topic.

If you really want to nitpick, you can say that any elite player "affects the entire court."  Even someone who does nothing but score (e.g. Reggie Miller) "affects the entire court" by who is covering him, who is left open, etc.

I ask you again: do you need me to explain the difference between Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan?  You act as if categorizing Jordan as a scorer is some sort of insult.  Wilt blocked a hell of a lot a shots and led the league in assists for a season.  He was still a scorer.

I have no interest in playing the "could have" game.  If LBJ didn't give a damn about rebounding or assists, could he score 50 PPG?  Who knows?  Who cares?

Keep repeating the question. Maybe at some point I'll answer it since it is a dumb question to begin with. I actually am old enough to remember Johnson (and am a Lakers fan) so I really don't need your analysis of his game.

So if you understand the question, why do you continue to insist that it is SO ABSURD to say that Jordan did not "affect the entire court" like Magic or Oscar (or LeBron)?

You did notice that those were specifically the players I was comparing Jordan to, right?

His game is different, yes (but then again so is James but one can easily infer you mean to say James game is exactly like Magic or Oscar). But Jordan did absolutely affect the entire court is my point. If you want to stipulate that "Like Magic or Oscar" is your point rather than taking a position that "Jordan didn't affect the entire court", I will concede. That is why I said each of those players is different than the others already.

For my own part of this conversation, I championed LeBron when the comparisons were with Kobe Bryant. I'm not capable of saying that LeBron is greater than Jordan, though I think if he adds a few more titles and continues the ridiculously efficient stat production, I could easily see him standing next to Jordan on that particular "greatest ever?" pedestal...

Heat streak up to 26... LeBron gave Wade the night off and beat down the worst team in the league (Charlotte) to the tune of 32 points (11/14, 10/11), 8 rebounds, 10 assists, 3 steals and 3 blocks.  Not sure if Miami will get to 33, but they sure do seem close to unbeatable right now. They do tease early though...this was the 4th straight game in this streak that Miami has allowed their opponent to get an early 10+ point lead.

The road game in San Antonio, four games from now, will be the true test. Popovich always has his team playing well down the stretch, plus the Spurs are brutally tough at home (30-4).

Meanwhile, my Suns are already thinking Lottery. We're hanging around the #3/#4 slot (slot being ping pong ball percentage), and I'm already dreaming of a Nerlens Noel or Otto Porter in a Suns uniform. Now we just need the Lakers to really implode and miss the playoffs, so Phoenix (who has LA's semi-protected pick) can have another card in the lottery (and maybe an Oladipo or Michael Carter-Williams to go with Otto). ;D

....well, that's over. Now ESPN can get back to talking about their first love. The Lakers.

If the streak was gonna end, fitting it ends in Michael Jordan's domain.

^^^^ It would have been more satisfying had it happened in the O-Zone.