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Tim Tebow. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2013/05/06/americas-most-influential-athletes-2/)

"Idle NFL quarterback Tim Tebow has been back in the news, but not for any heroics: he was recently cut loose by the New York Jets after a one-year experiment as a part-time QB behind Mark Sanchez failed to yield results. The “Tebowmania” days in Denver are only 15 months old, but it seems like 15 years. And yet, when Americans are asked which pro athletes they believe carry the most influence with the public, Tebow’s name tops the list."

As I said in the other thread, I find it hilarious when people talk of the terrible persecution Tebow has suffered on account of his faith, and claim that if he were gay or had some other Politically Correct attribute, he would be much better off.

He's a unemployed backup quarterback who has never started a full season.  And yet, for some supposedly unknown reason, he is the most influential athlete in America.

Any person that thinks highly of Tim Tebow should think even more highly of Mark Sanchez; Sanchez has accomplished far more in the NFL than Tebow has, in a similar fashion.  And yet Sanchez, who should ostensibly be shoved down our throats as a Latino QB (according to the "Politically Correct" theory), has never gotten anywhere near the kind of epic hype that Tebow continues to enjoy.

Gee, I wonder what the other difference between them could be?

Maybe the fact that he holds steadfast to his beliefs in the face of a lot of controversy.

To address the first thing.AM I to understand that you are saying it's ok to attack and be prejudiced towards Tebow's religion because he is successful?

Secondly, who ever said he would be better off (I assume you are speaking in football terms)? Mentally I'm sue he would be better off if so many people weren't constantly attacking him for his religion. I'm not sure how that would translate to football.


There is no mysterious unknown reason. He's the guy most men would want their daughter to date and most girls would want to date.

Again ... who would you rather date Dan?  ;)

Spider you are way off base. I actually agree with this assessment of Tebow being the most influential. You seem to focus this vote on field performance which should have absolutely nothing to do with the vote. People should not be influenced by sports skill. People should be influenced by their off the field actions.

I think Tebow is crap on the field as well but bashing him here is just off base.Sit back and think about the Tebowmaiacs for a minute. Is there any other group like them? I don't think so. Therefore Tebow is far and away one of, if not the most influential sports figures.

Who attacks Tebow for his religion?

People attack him because he's a terrible quarterback.  Why does every Tim Tebow conversation go back to religion?  If anything, the only reason he's still relevant is because of his clean cut, super hero, good Christian image.

There are thousands of out-of-work QB's out there, and no one cares about them.  Why Tebow?  What makes him so appealing to the media and others?

I agree Phish, Tebow's on field accomplishments, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with how "influential" he is.  However, I'm not sure he is the most influential, seems like he is just preaching to the choir.  Tebow is defineately one of the most talked about athletes, but that doesn't make him influential.   Prior to recent developments I would have said Lance Armstrong with his cancer awareness and Livestrong campaign was the most influential, and may still be.

No, I'm saying it's OK to criticize him for constantly turning football into a platform for him to advocate his off-the-field interests.  Particularly since he's not very good.

If you think I would want my daughter to date a pro athlete (any pro athlete), you're sadly mistaken.

And I think more girls would want to date Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers than Tim Tebow.

Influential. I see this as which athlete would you want to endorse your product to the masses?

You just answered your own question.

Take his religion out of the picture and he's just another bench warmer on his way out of the league.  Do you think anyone cares how clean-cut Drew Stanton is?  Or how much community work Chase Daniel does?  Of course not.

The common claim is that Tebow is just this great citizen, but there are plenty of great citizens in the NFL.  The NFL gives out an annual Man of the Year award to recognize a player for their humanitarian work; I'm sure all of the people who supposedly praise Tebow for his "charitable ethic" are equally devoted to players like Madieu Williams, Matt Birk, and Brian Waters.  I'm sure those charitable players are also near the top of the league in jersey sales, right?

Oh, wait... those players are more concerned with helping people than using their job to promote their religion, so they don't really have a dedicated following.  Funny, that.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to mock or judge someone based on their beliefs.

I'm confused at what's acceptable. 
So it is perfectly acceptable to mock blacks that believe it's ok to speak in Ebonics and Muslims who believe they need to pray 5 times a day but it isn't acceptable to question why a guy would want to suck penises and believes everyone has to know that he is proud about it? 

CF,

Has Tom Brady "made sure that everyone knows that he is proud" to perform oral sex on his wife?
How is this any different than what you just said about Jason Collins?

Do you think that if Jason Collins had simply gotten gay married (in a manner no more or less private than any other athlete's marriage) that this would be a non-story?

If a man is good at something, he should naturally show pride in that ability, even if it's just gargling another man's junk.

Yes. I've never seen anyone stand up and say I'm proud to be hetero and I will flaunt my heterosexuality in front of you and you must like it. Snap!!

But I digress. For the point of this conversation I'm just saying it's funny to me that you should be able to make fun of something as deeply personal as religion but you can't make fun of a person who flaunts their gay sexuality.

Who says you can't make fun of him? As long as you accept that a gay man has a right to that lifestyle, no matter how ridiculous that lifestyle may be to you, feel free to have all the fun you want at his expense.  I accept that some people (including you) are religious, and that they have the right to worship any fictitious deity they choose. It certainly doesn't stop me from poking fun at them for what I perceive as their misguided belief system.

It's important to note that, despite my belief that your pursuit of religion is equal parts ridiculous and delusional, I have no intention of pressuring my government representatives, now or in the future, to take away your right to basic social institutions...you know, like marriage.

Do you think it's OK to make fun of someone because of their gender?  How about their race?

Again, it boils down to this: criticizing someone's choices (including, but not limited to, their religion) is OK.  Do you think that Collins (and other homosexuals) choose to be attracted to the same sex?

Oh, no you didn't...

Yes. Just as I choose to love to my wife, follow Jesus, take care of my family, mow my yard, watch movies, go to the doctor, eat fat foods etc.  Everything is a choice that we have to make. I can choose to ignore certain impulses I have or I can choose to act on them. Either way its a choice.

To clarify:

You are saying that the actual attraction to the same sex (the attraction itself) is a choice?  That, say, Collins could choose to be attracted to women instead?  (Keep in mind that there's a difference between the attraction and acting on that attraction.)

See, unless you frame attraction itself as a choice, the rest of the argument basically turns into "well, homosexuals should either be celibate or fake it, but since I was born heterosexual, I get to have sex with people I'm attracted to."

P.S. Please restrict any rebuttals to the realm of those who are legally able to consent, since that's what we are talking about: consenting human adults.

Not an unknown reason. 

He gives a sermon and thousands show up.

Is he an athlete?  Yes.

Now, name an athlete that is more influential?  Brady? Manning? Rodgers?  While each of them are better at throwing a football then Tim.  None of them are nearly as influential.  As in what they say influences anyone. 

Yes, the "supposedly" was for all the people who claim that Tebow's popularity is NOT directly due to his outspoken evangelism.

It is the ONLY reason for his popularity.  There are plenty of extremely good college players and charitable citizens that don't have 1/1000th the following of Tebow, because they don't dedicate every action on the field to the Glory of Christ.

It's not ok to make fun of anyone for any reason.  I've heard that in Lake County, FL they are starting a "gay-straight" alliance in schools to prevent bullying of gay students. 

While this has good intentions, it only covers a small portion of the reasons why kids get bullied.  I've seen kids get picked on and made fun of because they are overweight or wear glasses or would rather study instead of party.  Maybe to go with the gay-straight alliance, they should create a jock-nerd alliance or a fat-skinny alliance.

So, when Tommy was around these boards, it wasn't OK to make fun of him for being a lard ass? Or for being a brain damaged douchebag?

I swear, you just about have to be a professor to figure out all the political correctness rules these days...

No, it was not ok.  Just like it's not ok to make fun of you for being a sarcastic idiot.  But I'll call you out for it anyway.

If you had known Tommy, you would have made fun of him just like everyone else around here. He was the Clown Prince of Whack-Jobs, and when he got the boot for being a general dick, TDMMC marked the event with 12 days of celebration and festivities. TDMMC old-timers still mark that date on our calendars each year as "Farewell, Fuck-wad Day."

It isn't social acceptable to mock someone based on their belief system. And to a certain extent It's justifiable. However that belief system should carry some baggage. If you believe something that has no proof of existence, you should not be surprised when people hold that against you.

As long as they aren't trying to force their misguided belief system on me, I fully support their right to it.

However, I DO have the right to judge them based on these beliefs. Religion is just one of many factors i can use to judge someone's character,  morality or  trustworthiness.

If i went around telling people that the sandy hook massacre was an Obama carried out plot just to push through gun control legislation, that would be used against me in people's judgement of me. Telling people they will go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus, or that Mohammed flew on a winged horse, or that Joseph Smith found gold tablets in New York with angelic writing on them is no different. It's just an older conspiracy theory.

And i do look at people that believe in those things in the same way i look at people that believe in the loch-ness monster or bigfoot, or that the US staged 9-11, or that we never landed on the moon.

I think it's important to point out that no one is criticizing Tebow for his religion.  There have been plenty of religious players in the NFL, Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck among them.  The difference is that:

1) Tebow goes out of his way to promote his religion within his sport
2) Unlike, say, Kurt Warner, Tebow's religious antics greatly eclipse his actual ability to play NFL football

I don't remember many people complaining about Ray Lewis saying that God wanted the Ravens to win or some such nonsense.  That's because Ray Lewis is one of the best NFL players of all-time.  Tim Tebow... is not.  With Ray-Ray, the religion is a distant second to his play on the field; with Tebow, he's not even ON the field!

Not sure if you folks have seen this yet...an Orlando attorney ponied up for a TV commercial in support of Jacksonville signing Tim Tebow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WTz_8kdsruw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WTz_8kdsruw)

^^ what a joke.

The commercial conveniently skipped over how he got stomped in the 2nd round of the playoffs, and how he couldn't get on the field the ENTIRE following season.

What a joke!

He's a character for sure. He lives not too far from me and has even hosted Obama at his house. I don't think I have to tell how that screwed up traffic around here in little Lake Mary!! Anyway he's not afraid to spend a lot of money in speaking his voice so he may actually go a little overboard before it's all over.  Years ago he spent a ton of money labeling the Central Florida light rail the "crime train" and got it voted down because it was going to disrupt traffic for his Wonder Works on International Drive.

He also is heading up the push to bring medical marijuana to Florida.

I may think his pursuit of Tebow may be a little misguided, but I definitely like where his heart is at... ;D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw)

Do you think this attorney could be doing this for self-promotion?  It probably builds a lot of goodwill with the community.

^^^ Possibly, but from what I've heard about this guy, that probably isn't his primary goal.

Oh yes....  he likes the limelight and is a marketing genius ( or has a great team)  but I wouldn't be surprised that he really wants Tebow

Does that mean Hulk Hogan was the most influential athlete in the 80's due to the Hulkamaniac following?

^^^ I can answer that in a resounding no because Hulk Hogan didn't participate in a sport. He is an entertainer.

You make some good points, although I disagree with your interpretation of them.  Has Tebow actually done anything (religious wise) on the field that other players haven't done??  You seem to be saying that it's okay to promote God or Christianity if you are an exceptional football player, but otherwise you should keep your mouth shut.  IMO it is the media that constantly pushes Tebow's religion to the forefront; he shouldn't have to stop being who he is because the media is taking advantage of it for their benefit.

They had Tebow mic'ed up during a game in Denver, and he was singing the contemporary Christian song, "Awesome God" by Rich Mullens, at the top of his lungs as he ran on the field. Do you really think that:

A) The media forced him to sing it?
B) He forgot he was mic'ed up?
C) Most other Christian athletes belt out gospel hits as they take the field?

I'm sorry, masterfins, but the media is only pouncing on the low-hanging fruit because Tebow is pulling the branch down so low that they can't see much else.

NCAA trying to ban messages on eye black under the 'Tebow Rule' (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/sports/college/ncaa-trying-to-ban-messages-on-eye-black-under-the/nL4cZ/)

"The NCAA's Football Rules Committee is proposing a ban on Tebow's most identifiable feature — the bible verses on his eye black. The new proposal, introduced Thursday, would ban all words, logos, numbers or other symbols on the players' eye black, beginning in the 2010 season."

And before you protest about that being in college: that is exactly the kind of stunt that created the Tebow Army.  By the time he arrived in the NFL, the zealots were already rabidly chanting for him.

In case you haven't noticed, you can do damn near anything you want if you are an exceptional football player.

Run a dogfighting ring?
Kill a mother while drunk driving?
Pull a drunk girl into a bathroom and rape her?

Constantly shoving your religion in everyone's face is nothing compared to that stuff.  But it's one thing to have to put up with nonsense from players who are actually good; this level of insanity for a bench warmer is unacceptable.

I bet you Ray Lewis did...

And for some reason folks seem to think that singing on the sideline or visiting sick people in the hospital or building orphanages is more despicable that the above mentioned items.   

Well do you think HE asked to be mic'ed up??  Or was it the media's idea??

I don't know what athletes are saying as they take the field, there is too much noise to hear them, perhaps they are all singing Christian songs.

Are you really going to try and compare committing criminal acts to showing your faith???


BTW all you had to say was "yes", that "actually good athletes" can say what they want, and "bench warmers" (although he was a starting QB) cannot.

Literally no one thinks that.  That's a strawman argument.

but your actions say different. You constantly complain about Tebow and yet never about any of the other offenders.

Michael Vick and Ben Roethlisberger, combined, are not in the news as much as Tim Tebow.  Not even remotely close.  There's your answer.

I also talk about Mark Sanchez more than Vick; does that mean that I think poor QB play is "more despicable" than killing dogs?

There's a difference between starting and starting caliber. 

Particularly if you are searching for news about Tebow.  You started the thread AND are complaining that too much time is spent talking about Tebow.

I would not have known about the Forbes article if not for you. 

I started this thread because I didn't feel like (further) derailing the already-existing thread where people were complaining that Tebow is oh-so-persecuted.  Such a claim is not quite consistent with an article declaring Tebow the most influential athlete in American sports.

Really so your claim is now that influential and persecuted are mutual exclusive. 

Martin Luther King, Martin Luther, Darwin, and Socrates were these men persecuted?  Or were they influential?  Or neither?  As you seem to be claiming one can't be both. 

Um, yes.  This is an unspectacular claim.

If you are currently wielding great influence, any persecution you may be suffering would be (relatively) rather minimal.  And if you are suffering great persecution, it's nearly impossible to simultaneously wield great influence.  If you don't have enough influence to keep yourself out of jail, how much do you really have?

That is, unless you consider a gang leader in a political gulag to be an example of "both," in which case I would have to simply disagree.  Emperor of the Leper Colony is not what I would call a persecuted person with great influence.

P.S. Influence doesn't count if you're dead.

Ray Lewis has been mic'ed up more than any player in the history of the NFL, based on the number of clips they run on NFL Network, and I have never ever heard that man sing any song, much less a gospel number.

Seriously? This quote right here means Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was not an influential person. You may be the only person that feels that way.

He wasn't an influential person when he was in jail.  He became an influential person later.

Was Nelson Mandela influential when he was rotting in political prison?  Was Muhammad Ali influential when he was blackballed out of boxing?  Don't conflate future with present.

Was he influential on August 28, 1963?  He wasn't in jail.  But he was quite hated. 

Was he influential on April 3, 1968?  I would say yes.  What happened on April 4th certainly suggests persecuted. 

Yes, he was.  Not sure what "quite hated" has to do with anything; how many millions of people hate Obama (or hated GWB before him)?

1) Yes, he was, and 2) no, it doesn't (in any meaningful sense).

Unless your definition of "persecuted" includes "my ex-girlfriend slashed my tires," the actions of one private person (no matter how drastic) do not create persecution.

i hope tim tebow gets hit by a bus going to an atheist convention, while he is on his way home from his meth-smoking gay lover's house.

That's called the "if he fails then that makes me look better" theory and you are not alone.  It's also why so many people rip Jesus and I get that too. What I don't get is if everyone really doesn't care about them and their morals why do those same people get so uncomfortable with them? I mean, just as has been mentioned many people have an easier time accepting known felons and inarticulate athletes than seeing someone give thanks to God and doing good deeds. Doesn't that seem just a little odd?

i thought most felons ended up being born again christians in jail ?

Really, he was arrested damn near 30 times in his life. Mostly because of the influence he had over people.

Mandela most definitely did have influence in jail... 

I can certainly understand jail lessening the influential impact of people whose influence is based on physical acts, but those whose influence comes from the intangible - ideas, concepts, beliefs - can actually have their influence increase by being jailed.

If I can quote from the Peter Gabriel song, "Biko" (which seems fitting, given the Mandela example)...

"You can blow out a candle,
But you can't blow out a fire.
Once the flames begin to catch,
The wind will blow it higher..."

You're right: I don't mean to say that Mandela and MLK had zero influence when incarcerated.  But their influence was very minor compared to their level of persecution (and in Mandela's case, "political prisoner for multiple decades" is one rung down from "executed by the government" at the top of the persecution scale).

So then, to bring this back full circle: Tebow's influence is apparently incredibly great, and his level of persecution pretty much stops at "some people on the Internet say mean things about him" (note: media criticism of the football skills of a professional football player is not persecution).

Corrected for accuracy. 

Reggie White?

I imagine it's for the same reason that people who are supposedly against excessive political correctness (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/akmuckraker/screw-political-correctne_b_211635.html) are incredibly quick to spring into action the moment they feel they can claim they are the victim of politically incorrect speech (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0210/Palin_goes_after_Emanuel_on_retarded_slur.html).

Furthermore, I don't know if I'd say that people don't care about Tebow's beliefs; it's more like they don't care to hear about them.

Of course, by "easier time accepting," I presume that you aren't referring to quantifiable metrics like, say, number of jerseys sold.

There is also something to be said for the fact that when it comes to sports, people have an easier time accepting good players than bad players, regardless of their actions off of the field.

The converse is also true.  Which seems to drive Spider-Dan mad.

Some fans are more accepting of players that are good people even if they are not great players. 

Spider Dan seems to be on a crusade to convince the rest of us that we should hate/like players solely on their on field performance.  And ridicule anyone who would root for Tebow over Vick, because they consider Tebow a nicer person.   

I don't have a beef with anyone who roots for Tebow.  Shit...I root for Tebow.  I think he's a good teammate and a nice guy, from what I can tell.  However, I don't like when people re-write history or over-inflate his abilities as an athlete, when it comes to a sports discussion.

I actually have seen Reggie White singing a gospel tune on TV, but he was in a church at the time, not when he was mic'ed up on the football field.

That might be true, but in the case of Tebow, his popularity is not primarily because of his charitable work; it's because of his outspoken religious beliefs (which is not nearly the same thing as "being a good person.")  To wit, if Tebow were instead an openly devout Muslim, most of this talk about how he's such an outstanding citizen would be non-existent.

Exactly how is he persecuted? He is rich. He is famous, with tens of thousands or more fans. He gets to play his favorite sport for a job. He gets a national stage to espouse his beliefs.
Where is the punishment? Where is the injury or being afflicted?
He gets made fun of for his playing as much or more than his actual beliefs. Making fun of his abilities as a QB is not persecution.
He is not being persecuted because NFL teams want him as a glorified RB or TE.
The term persecution is being bandied about entirely too much with Tebow, as it is not all about his beliefs.

I disagree.  1) He is not particularly outspoken.  If asked he certainly will talk about Jesus, but he is hardly one of those who seeks those who would rather not hear is views.  2) He is very charitable. 

The problem *I have* with many christians is they do a lot of preaching but then don't actually follow the scripture regarding the way they treat the poor, sick etc.  Jesus didn't preach in opposition to feeding the poor or providing medical care to the masses the unlike the religious.

Tebow not actually spends his time, effort, money and compassion on the poor and sick. 

That is why *I* like him.       

Fine. So do other NFL players. There are other NFL players who are devout. They just keep their beliefs private. Why are they not as popular? Is Tebow any more of a Christian than Reggie White was?
What does this have to do with his ability to be an NFL QB?
Where is the persecution that keeps getting mentioned?

Name any player that is more outspoken about his religious beliefs.  Keep in mind that this is the same player who regularly wore bible verses on his eyeblack.

Are you saying he is one of the most charitable players?  I doubt that.

Pa-lease.   He gained popularity by wearing bible quotes on his face on national TV.  That is as outspoken as you come.  You know how inappropriate it would be if I started wearing "There in no God" on my face?

^^ AND he got a Super Bowl ad for anti-abortion.  Right - because all "not outspoken" people go on TV on the biggest TV-watching night of the year and preach their beliefs.