The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I recently saw this "article" (http://www.miamidolphins.com/media/audio/Debating-The-Mount-Rushmore-Of-Dolphins-Greats/b0f8a02a-1d9b-41af-9000-efb6cd90f636) on the Dolphins website, referencing a ProFootballTalk series (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nbc-yahoo-sports/pft-team-team-mount-rushmore-results-195621821--ocid.yahoo.html) on the Mount Rushmore for each NFL team.  Here were their candidates for the Dolphins:

Nick Buoniconti
Mark Clayton
Larry Csonka
Bob Griese
Larry Little
Dan Marino
Don Shula
Dwight Stephenson
Jason Taylor
Zach Thomas
Paul Warfield
Richmond Webb

There are two people that will probably be on everyone's lists, but it's interesting to see who everyone else would put.  Can a mod add a poll?  (Remember, you have to choose four.)

Shula and Mario will be a lock on everyone's ballot I expect. Csonka is a close third and really a given in my mind. The fourth is a bit tough. I eventually settled on Taylor because of this reasoning, I expect he will be induced into the HoF, he is a lock for the Ring of Honor, he represents a newer generation of Dolphin, and he won a Defensive Player of the Year.

Shula
Marino
Csonka
Clayton

Exactly the same as my list and for pretty much the same reasons. 

Marino-Shula-Csonka for sure, and then a 2 minute cage match between Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas to determine the 4th spot.

I think Shula Marino Csonka and Griese (Bob, not Brian).  Realistically, the Dolphins have three numbers retired and a winningest coach in NFL history.  I'm not sure how you can even make an argument for any other foursome.

JT's number retirement is a foregone conclusion.

I take JT over Griese because 1) I think the '70s era is well-represented by Csonka/Shula and 2) the Dolphins were really a defense-dominant team for the majority of their (competitive) existence, so a defender should be there.

Marino and Shula for sure.  Three and four could be one of several guys. 

I agree. Griese was certainly more of a game manager than a game changer.

I actually think it's fairly easy. I would pick Shula (winningest coach eva), Zonk (best of the 70's) Marino (best of the 80s /early 90's) and Taylor (best of the late 90's/early 00's). No one has been better. If Ricky had continued on the career path he started on here then that would have made things much more difficult.
 

I like Jason Taylor just like the next guy but in reality, the starting QB of the only undefeated team in league history over a defensive end on a team that won exactly nothing.  Plus JT went and played a season for a hated rival. 

Seems like Griese is a better choice, IMO.

If that's your argument, would it be Griese over Marino if it came down to top-three?  Because everything most of what you just said applies equally well there, too.

It's fair to say that (regardless of rings) Griese is the 2nd-best Dolphin at his position.  It's also fair to say that JT is the best Dolphin on his side of the ball.  If you want to argue Buoniconti over JT and point at rings, fine... but as individual players, I think JT deserves the nod.

edit: on the "loyalty" front: JT was traded the first time and the team opted not to re-sign him the second time.  Those were both on Parcells/Ireland, not JT.  I don't blame him for either of those.

Earl Morral replaced Griese and never lost a game. No one was ever able to replace Taylor who by himself was capable of changing the game. That's why I would pick each of the three players I did. No other "one player" could change the game the way they did.

Look, I'm not arguing against JT.  If Mount Rushmore has 5 heads, I'd put him there all day long.

Just wondering if we have a little bit of fondness for the guy we saw play 2 years ago, as opposed to the guy that played before some of us were born.

(http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/11/25/sports/web_photos/25s.GameDay.Dolphins.1.C.TA--300x300.jpg)

I agree with your conclusion (JT over Griese), but not your reasoning.

Marino-Shula-Csonka are LOCKS

For the 4th spot I go Joe Robbie over any of those players honestly.

Tough to put Zach or JT on that list since they  both won nothing and never even led the team to many if any big games during their time here.

I just can't get over Taylor going to the Jets.  I think it disqualifies him.  It'd be like if George Washington went and took over as President for the British for a year at the end of his political career.

Marino, Shula, Csonka, Robbie

So Brett Favre doesn't belong on Greenbays? 

Marino also "won nothing," yet he would be the first player called in nearly everyone's lists.

By that logic, Jerry Rice would also not belong on SF's, as many 49er fans have more consistent hatred for the Raiders than any of their divisional rivals.

Marino led the team to a Super Bowl and 3 AFC Championship games in his carrer. He won big playoff games. He led the team to meaningful games. JT and Zach did not. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Marino still won nothing of consequence (unless we are going to go around flashing conference championship rings like Ron Jaworski).

You should not be playing the "team success" card during any conversation in which Marino is the preferred candidate.  Doing so means Marino clearly takes a backseat to Griese, which is damn near lunacy.

On a somewhat related note, it would make my decade if there were a picture of Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, or Steve Tasker doing this pose:

(http://www.operationsports.com/forums/albumpicture.php?albumid=1302&pictureid=9873)]

...with these:

(http://www.hoffco-inc.com/sb/img/rngs/1990-cf-tn.jpg)(http://www.hoffco-inc.com/sb/img/rngs/1991-cf-tn.jpg)(http://www.hoffco-inc.com/sb/img/rngs/1992-cf-tn.jpg)(http://www.hoffco-inc.com/sb/img/rngs/1993-cf-tn.jpg)

If you can't blame Marino for an inept defense, you can't blame Taylor or Thomas for an inept offense. With that said, Taylor got my vote for the 4th spot.

Of course team success plays a factor. While you don't necessarily have to have won a championship you should have at least been in some meaningful playoff games and won a couple! How many losing seasons did Marino have...1 (1988).

Marino won league MVP. Marino went to a Super Bowl and led his team there. He won multiple division titles. He actually led a team that won big playoff games on more than one occasion over the course of his career. He is in the NFL Hall of Fame (JT has an outside shot but its no given and Zach has no shot in hell of getting in) And while conference championship rings aren't anything special....at least Marino played in 3 AFC Title games with the Fins and won 1. How many did Zach and JT play in with the Fins? Oh yeah...none!

Plus Marino when he retired owned EVERY MAJOR record for his position.  Combine Marino's personal accomplishments with BIG games his team won and its not even a comparison over JT and Zach two solid players who didn't lead their Fins teams anywhere

Can't put JT or Zach on that Mt Rushmore when you have multiple Dolphins HALL OF FAME players off of it.

Either its Joe Robie (obvious reasons) or one of the Hall Of Famers for the 4th spot.

It will NEVER happen! And I would bet a large sum of money on it. They aren't going to retire JT's number. He would have to first make the Hall of Fame (which is no lock to happen) and then you would have to put him in the debate with the other Dolphins Hall of Famers who don't have their number retired.  And in that conversation JT sinks to the bottom.

When it becomes a consensus vote, then your argument would hold water.

JT is not even eligible to enter yet.  Please don't be ridiculous.

The fact that you think JT has "an outside shot" is equally absurd.  He has a reasonable chance of being a first-ballot HOFer and is damn near guaranteed to get in.  There has never been a DPOY with 3+ first-team All-Pro selections that DIDN'T eventually go into the HOF.

Joe Robbie isn't in the HOF either (and with the duration of eligibility he's had, it's safe to say he'll never be in there), so you've blown up your own selection there.  As for the others:

- Buoniconti had his best years with the Patriots, not the Dolphins
- Clayton and Webb have had many years to get into the HOF and have never even been finalists
- Larry Little, Dwight Stephenson, and Paul Warfield have arguments, but none of them was ever even the best player (on that side of the ball) on their own team, much less the entire league
- Zach doesn't need an explanation

Let's shoot some of these down one by one....


-I know JT isn't eligible yet, but when he is he isn't a 1st ballot guy. He might never get it and it will probably be a long wait if he does. It took guys like Chris Doleman years to make it and they have similar stats (Dolemans are better though) and both are borderline guys. JT has less sacks than Doleman and it took Doleman some 12-13 years to get in. JT will have a similar wait or longer! If you think JT has a shot of being a 1st ballot hall of famer player you are lost on this issue. LOST! Michael Strahan didn't get 1st ballot. He has 2 more carer sacks than JT, won a ring, and was more dominate during his career (you would probably disagree with that but the vast majority would say Strahan was a better player).

-Clayton and Webb aren't hall of fame players...what's your point? They shouldn't be on this Mt Rushmore either! Webb shouldn't even be in the RING OF HONOR I think that's a joke honestly. But that's a different debate for a different day

-Few owners ARE in the Hall of Fame. Robbie isn't a worthy owner to make the Hall. Not even close! But he did start the damn franchise so he should get some credit for that for christ sakes when you are doing a Dolphins Mt. Rushmore. When talking about a non-player like an owner whether he is in the Hall of Fame really isn't a factor. The guy is the owner of the ONLY undefeated team, built a mini-dynasty in the early 70's, hired Shula, and built a stadium with no public funding. That counts for something. And I damn sure rank Robbie higher than the likes of Zach and JT. Two guys who won nothing during their time here on a defense that always underachieved in crunch time.

That's for them to decide.  I would exclude Taylor for that reason and choose Robbie instead.

Doleman has less first-team All-Pros and never won DPOY.  And yeah, they both have more sacks.  Meanwhile, neither one has more INTs (JT has 8 to Strahan's 4), JT has more forced fumbles than either (JT has 46 to Strahan's 24), JT has more fumble recoveries than either (JT has 29 to Strahan's 15), and JT has 9 defensive TDs to the 6 TDs of Doleman and Strahan combined.

So basically, you're comparing one player (Doleman) who was never the best defender in the league at any point, and another player (Strahan) who has 2 more career sacks and has been damn near doubled by JT in practically every other major category.  And Strahan was a finalist in his first year of eligibility.

DPOY is a big deal.

AFC owners in the Hall of Fame:

Paul Brown, Al Davis, Lamar Hunt, Art Modell, Art Rooney, Dan Rooney, Ralph Wilson

All 7 of those gentlemen were AFC owners at the same time Robbie was the owner of the Dolphins.

Joe Robbie would get my vote if we were doing a non-players Mt. Rushmore, but I just can't put him ahead of JT though.

Perhaps if Joe Robbie had competed on Dancing With the Stars, I might take his candidacy more seriously...

Your point?!!  I said multiple times Robbie isn't worthy of being in the HALL OF FAME! That doesn't disqualify him to being on the Dolphins Mt. Rushmore!

Hate to break it to ya...either was JT. He was never the best defensive player in the league at any point. He might have had a good year stats wise but he was never the best defensive player in the league.

 
A finalist isn't a hall of famer. That's like bragging about those Conference Championship rings pal

You used the Hall of Fame as a point to supposedly DQ JT and Zach, yet (on a strictly numerical basis) it is much, much easier to get into the HOF as an owner (particularly as an AFL-era owner) than as a player.

Some consistency, please.

Defensive Player of the Year says otherwise.  Not sure what else to tell you on that.

First-year finalist doesn't sound like "an outside shot" or "a borderline guy" to me; it sounds like someone who was pretty damn close to being a first-ballot HOFer.  And like I just said, JT utterly destroys Strahan in every meaningful category but sacks, which Strahan barely wins.

I went Shula Marino for first two and Jason Taylor Zach for second. I totally understand Czonca but I am reading it as who I would pick I was 2 years old when Czonka was running seen old footage but Jason and Zach made the games watchable when we struggled on offense. JT was a monster that scared QB's and ZT was like a pit bull in the center. JT also was very good at disrupting Tom Brady he took him out of his game zone a lot. Mike I can't believe you are slamming JT He was one of the best to play his position and like I said he tormented offensive coaches on opposing teams.Lead NFL in sacks, Had a few fumble recoveries a couple he caused. I am a fan but everyone talked about how good JT was I think he goes in first time.

Nobody is slamming JT. He is a good player not a great one. Calling someone good is now slamming them? He is a borderline hall of famer in my eyes. And he isn't one of the Top 4 Dolphins of all time. Not even close! JT only led the league in sacks once, 2002. So let's not make it like he won the sack title every year. You got a guy like Kevin Green with more sacks than JT who isn't in the Hall of Fame.  Some of you are re-writing history about how good he was. He is far from one of the 4 best Dolphins of all time. I would put Griese in that spot, Robbie in that spot, Little in that spot.

He won it once...once. Which I noted he won once. NO. He had one great statistical season which got him the award. But he wasn't the best defensive player of his era.

Tom Brady might have a different opinion than you.

So, setting aside the ambiguity of the term "of his era," you're saying that only one defensive player "of his era" should make it into the Hall of Fame?  By that standard, Marino wouldn't be in the HoF either, as he wasn't the best offensive player of his era.

Of course, I ask that facetiously, as Marino definitely deserves his Hall of Fame induction (which I was present in Canton for). Jason Taylor will deserve his HoF nod as well, when it happens.

Then I guess it's a good thing nobody ever said he was?

I said he was the best defender in the league at one point, as evidenced by his Defensive Player of the Year award.  So for 2006, he was the best defender in the league.  It's not that complicated.

As usual, MikeO is in a minority (as based by our voting) yet he is the most vocal in the thread (sorry Spider but the fact that Mike is the squeeky wheel here wins him the award).

being in the minority doesn't mean I'm wrong  ;)

^^^ In an opinion poll, it is damn near impossible to be wrong.

^^^ Unless your opinion doesn't parallel MikeO's, in which case, you're wrong...and he'll break out as many exclamation points and all-caps usage as necessary to convince you of the foolishness of your opinion. ;)

And if someone doesn't agree with you we all get subjected to bad attempts at humor which aren't funny 

Sorry to say but I think Mike is dead on here.  I think some of you have fond and recent memories of JT and the bias inflates his legacy in your mind.  As I said 3 pages ago, I feel like on a larger scale, JT isn't worth the spot.  Not knocking him, but he's not top 4 ALL TIME.

^^^ You guys are entitled to your opinions but for giggles I just looked at three separate lists of similar top Miami Dolphins lists and the lowest I saw Jason was #6 so I would say we are much closer to the consensus than either of you are. Mike is smoking crack with his position Taylor is barely HoF material.

Don't you just hate it when someone demands that you agree with their opinion, but refuses to share their crack with you?

^^^ It certainly makes it hard to understand their reasoning.

Yep! I am not knocking JT either. He is a borderline hall of famer. That is high praise. Just not a Top 4 all time Miami Dolphin. That's all

I hope he gets in the Hall of Fame. I wanna go to Canton for a weekend and celebrate that as a Fin Fan. I just don't see it happening and if it does it might be a very long wait.

If he's #6, how are you justifying bumping him up to #4?  Mount Rushmore has 4 heads, not 6.

I'm interested to know who these other lists show in their top 4.

I said that was the lowest I saw him on those three lists. The other two had him in there.

Similarly, I think some of you have recent memories of his free agency decisions, which influences your opinion unduly.

You literally just said, "If Mount Rushmore has 5 heads, I'd put him there all day long."  So it looks like you think he's, at worst, #5.  Your gap between #4 ALL TIME and #5 ALL TIME is that large?

Gotta go w/ Griese. I love JT but Doug Betters was kind of a 80's version. If you have to go D on #4  Scott, Buoniconti, Tayler, Fernandez, Thomas, idk all seem even to me? Had a harder time keeping warfield out than of the defenders.

Spider, I merely stated that he played for a rival, didn't say that was biasing my decision.  It literally has nothing to do with my argument, just another supplementary data point.

Just think Griese earned his spot and deserves it.  There's a reason they make you wait 5 years before going into the hall.  Your legacy has to stand the test of time.  10 years from now, I might have a different opinion about JT and switch him around over Griese.  But for right now, I feel like he needs time to marinate amongst the other all time greats.

Make your case for someone else then.

I have been since page 1... ::)

All I know is from the poll on this page it is Dan Don Larry and Jason everybody arguing this voted right. Voting settled it Jason is in the top four.............. >:D

Sorry, thought it was MikeO doing all the talk about JT, now I see that you agreed with him from the beginning.

I would put Griese at #5, just behind JT. I watched both of them play, so I don't really think it has anything to do with fond and recent memories as I still have fond memories of Griese playing as well. The difference is that I thought JT was a bigger playmaker on the defensive side of the ball than Griese was on the offensive side of the ball. I think it was MikeO that said JT wasn't the best defensive player in his era and that may be true, but he was pretty darn close as he was the defensive MVP one year and was always mentioned as one of the great defensive players in the league at the time. I don't believe that Griese ever won a league MVP as there were many other great offensive players during those years, not just QB's. Even amongst the QB's Griese was thought to be more of a cerebral, tactical QB in his day, he really wasn't considered to be a great playmaker. He knew exactly when the running game had caused the defense to start to crowd the line and then would exploit it in the passing game with precise and effecient passing.

It's true that the team had more success with Griese at QB then with JT leading the defense, but Griese had MUCH more help than JT had. Look at all the players on the list above from Griese's era and there are several more that have been left off like Manny Fernandez, Jake Scott, Mercury Morris, Jim Kiick, etc. JT had Zach, Surtain, Madison and a few others, but not like those SB teams in the 70's.

As far as accolades go, I believe that JT will be inducted into the HOF and I believe his number will be retired after that, so I don't think that's much different from Griese.

Either of them are certainly worthy of being #4. I gave a small edge to JT and I wouldn't argue with anyone who picks Griese over him, but to say it's not close doesn't ring true to me.

I think you can definitely make a case for Griese over Taylor.

Mt. Rushmore isn't just for the best players or even the best impact, but for the best legacy.  It's unclear at this point how JT will be judged by history.  Griese is very much still a part of this football community.  He does local broadcasts and is associated with the most prosperous time in the team's history.

Though I believe Taylor was a better player than Griese, he did leave and play elsewhere for a couple of years.  I do think that playing a final season here will help a lot and my position on him may soften, but for now, I don't put him up there.  Also, Taylor seems to be taking on a more national legacy than a local one.

If we're just going to talk about the best players, you'd be putting Paul Warfield up there in the 4 spot.

I don't think Warfield was as good at his position (relative to his peers) as Taylor was at his.

I never saw him play, but I thought that Warfield was one of the best WRs ever -- like game-changingly good at the position, especially for the time.  Is that not the case?  I mean -- I have no idea, but that's what I've been led to believe.

^^^ His catch numbers are not very high but his yard per catch were impressive. According to Wikipedia he only had 29 catches during the 1973 season but 11 were for TDs. He only averaged 30 some catches per year over 13 season.

That was a different NFL back then.  Teams would win with running and defense.  Super Bowl winning QB's would throw 8 balls for under 100 yards in the entire game.

It's really hard to compare over generations.  30 catches is acceptable, but we're a pass heavy league now.  It used to be all running.  I have no idea how impressive 30 catches were in the 70s.

Warfield's reception numbers were never impressive...catching a ton of passes wasn't really his game. Only twice in his career did he crack the top-10 in the league in receptions: In 1964, he finished 9th with 52 catches, and in 1968, he finished 6th with 50 catches. He did lead the NFL in receiving TDs two different seasons, and was pretty consistently among the league leaders in yards per reception. In the "Career Yards per Touch" category, which factors in rushing, receiving and return yards, he stands tied at #2 in NFL history at 19.5 yards per touch.  Paul Warfield = Big Plays


* stats from pro-football-reference.com

If the Dolphins are lucky (extremely lucky), maybe Mike Wallace's career arc will resemble Warfield's.

I hope Wallace catches more passes than Warfield did...

And you don't think Taylor was? Everytime he returned a turnover for a TD that was definitely a game-changing play. How many of those did he have in his career? There were other game changing plays as well, that's just off the top of my head. Some of you are seriously short changing JT and if it's not for him leaving and going to play for the Jets and skins, then I'm completely baffled by it.

Similarly to Zach, We all loved Zach Thomas, but does anyone really think he was one of the best MLB's of ALL TIME?

Considering the great linebackers in NFL history - Lawrence Taylor, Ray Lewis, Butkus, Mike Singletary, do you really think Zach Thomas belongs on the same list as these guys?  Sure he was a great DOLPHIN player and we all remember him fondly, but he's not one of the best of all time.

I think everyone in this thread realizes Zach actually is a long-shot to get into the HOF.  But Zach is not JT.

^^ Right - so why is Zach's name on this list of nominees, and Jim Langer (a HOFer) is not?

My point the entire time is that we all show a bias (subconscious or otherwise) toward more recent players.

Maybe I'm undervaluing Taylor, but no, I wouldn't consider him among the most elite DEs of all time.  Maybe I'm wrong...I'm no expert and I personally like Taylor and loved him as a player.  I'm just trying to be objective. 

To be fair, he doesn't have to be an elite DE of all time.  He has to be an elite Dolphins' player.

To me, Larry Csonka isn't one of the best RB's of all time, but he absolutely belongs on this list due to his value to the franchise.

Jason Taylor is one of the best Dolphins' players of all time.

I really think this conversation is really odd now. Maybe I just don't understand your definition of "one of the best" but given the sheer numbers of players over the years excluding any Hall of Famer from "one of the best" just sounds odd to me.

I agree.  I was comparing him to Paul Warfield on a league-wide level.

Jim Langer is an offensive lineman, which automatically puts him 3 steps behind in prestige.  Stephenson was arguably the best center of all time, Webb played LT (the most high-profile OL position) for the most high-profile QB, and they have 1 vote between them so far; Larry Little has 0.  (And for the record, Webb was on the list over Langer even though Webb isn't in the HOF.)

Sorry, but the fact that there are three OLinemen already on the list to choose from more than satisfies the token "we respect the trenches" requirement.  Put rather bluntly, the only way you're putting OLinemen on your Mt. Rushmore is if your team has starved for skill-position talent (see: Bengals, Seahawks).  LB/DE/CB are the QB/RB/WR of the defense, and get "screen time" accordingly.

If I'm creating a list of Mt. Rushmore nominees, I start with all HOFers at a minimum, and add from there.

The fact that Richmond Webb is on the list over Jim Langer proves my point about time-sensitive bias.  The same can be said to explain why Mark Clayton has 2 votes and Paul Warfield has none.  Does anyone really think Clayton was a better WR than Warfield?

I voted for Clayton, I think he is always overlooked.  Clayton is #2 on the Fins list of career yardage for receivers with 8643 (behind Duper who had 8869); Clayton had 82 TD's as a Dolphin (Duper had 59).  Warfield was a great receiver, especially for his era, but since this is a Miami Mt. Rushmore I would not pick Warfield because he only played 5 seasons with the Dolphins, and had only 33 TDs with the Fins.  Warfield is #9 on Dolphins receiving yardage with 3355.

So you automatically exclude anyone who hasn't been retired for at least five years, then.  Time-sensitive bias?

Just for the record, if we had this discussion in, say, 2003, would you exclude Marino for the same reason?

I didn't say exclude.  I said bias.  I know you know the difference.

But, doesn't the Hall of Fame do that for that same reason?

Fair enough.  I thought you were saying that no non-HOFer should win over a HOFer.

If your point is that Jim Langer deserves to be in the poll, that is a reasonable statement.  He would almost certainly receive as many votes as Larry Little did, but he should be in the discussion.

How could Bob Griese not be a lock? Seriously their cannot b a legit Dolphin Mt. Rushmore w/out him. Could certainly make a case for him to be #1 or 2 on the list. The pack has many great players over the years , so what bart starr doesn't make that list? It goes Shula,Marino or Griese then wide open for everyone else!! Zonk-Taylor-Langer-Warfield all good choices hell how about Stanfill & Vern-Den-Herder or Doug Betters? Was Jason Taylor even the dolphins best DE ever?

Easy question...gets the easy answer:  Yes

Easily

Possibly. What is so special about Warfield? I mean he was really really good, but it's not like Clayton wasn't.

I think the main reason the Hall of Fame does is so that they know you are really retired. Don't want to put someone in the hall that's playing.

I concede that JT was the best over the long haul. So maybe u can make a case for him over Zonk if u would like. But the bigger point I was trying to make was Griese has got to be in.  If your a Fins fan its really a no brainer, unless you are younger & don't count the glory years before Danny boy came along?

I don't know about Griese being a shoe in why not Earl Morall He one more of the games in the undefeated season. Lets be honest to be QB for miami was the ability to hand the ball off to the Zonka. Bob was always mediocre at qb position.

And the hall of fame voters put him in Canton because they thought he was a nice guy?! ::)

Csonka was a more important part of that offense than Griese.  If it comes down to a choice between one of those two, Csonka should get the nod.

Teams honor the greatest players in the franchise history by retiring their jersey number.  You have to be an absolute elite player to the franchise to have your jersey number retired.  The Dolphins have retired 3 numbers:

13 - Marino
39 - Csonka
12 - Griese

So it sounds like you are all saying the Dolphins got it wrong, and don't know who their own 3 best players of all time are?  To me, you take those three, add in the winningest coach in NFL history, and that's your "Mount Rushmore."

Pretty cut-and-dry.

Will #99 someday be added to a flag next to the other three?  Maybe.  I think he's a shoe-in for the Ring of Honor.  To be honest, I don't know if #99 is worthy of retirement.

No one is saying they got it wrong.

Yes, he will. That's what we are saying and if they don't, then yes they will have gotten it wrong.

This "JT doesn't have his number retired and isn't even in the HOF" arguments are borderline dishonest.  Csonka didn't even have his number retired until 2002.  I guess he would have been a crapshoot until then!

Should Tom Brady be on the Patriots Mt. Rushmore?  Tough call, since he is not in the HOF, his number is not retired, and the Patriots already have 4+ numbers retired and 4 HOFers!

I am using the "retired number" argument to emphasize Griese's understated value to the franchise, to the people that say "he wasn't all that great."

I am not using it as a means to downplay Jason Taylor, other than to say "its too early to make that assessment."

Comparing Jason Taylor's value to the Dolphins to Tom Brady's value to the Partiots is criminal.  Worst analogy ever.  Or perhaps your opinion of Jason Taylor really is THAT over-inflated...?

This might be true if he was still playing, but he's not. Just because 5 years hasn't passed since he retired doesn't really make that much of a difference. His contributions are well known and will stand the test of time.

They put JT in the ring of honor last year. JT won't have his jersey retired he wasn't that good!

I meant I agreed JT was the best DE ever for the dolphins. The best defender ever idk maybe so? That's a different discussion for another day. I voted Csonka as my four.  Griese was the QB man I loved zonk (He never ran out of bounds) but Kick & Morris were pretty damn good too, oh & that line. RB's are a dime a dozen except a few ( Brown/OJ/Sanders/Peterson) u get the idea. I liken Griese to Starr or more recently Aikman never had gaudy numbers but leadership & completion percentage ( I bet Griese's is pretty high- i'm a computer novice so maybe someone can look up the #'s for me?) Also winning is pretty important I think JT won 2 playoff games (that I can remember) & it was a running back named Sammie Smith who won one of them. The other well T-Buck ,Marino & Tony Marten on 3rd & 17 in what I like to think of as Marino's last drive!! Shula/Marino/Griese/Czonka...I just don't understand all this love for JT?  Top ten absolutely!!

You said, "Teams honor the greatest players in the franchise history by retiring their jersey number."  You then cited the fact that JT's number is not retired (even though it took over 20 years to retire Csonka's) as evidence that the Dolphins don't believe him to be one of their greatest players.

Tom Brady's number is not retired.  Neither are the numbers of Drew Brees, Larry Fitzgerald, Tony Gonzales, Ray Lewis, Ronde Barber, Brian Dawkins, or LaDainian Tomlinson.  What does this fact tell us about any of these players?  Not much.

Here's the link to Griese's career stats:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrieBo00.htm (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrieBo00.htm)

He really didn't have a very high career completion percentage (56.2%), and his TD/Int rate also wasn't really that impressive (192 TDs/172 ints), but no one can argue with his leadership and field toughness.

Taking into account the era that he played in his stats are very good, but not incredibly high. His stats are up there with the other HOF QB's that played in his era. I'm not taking anything away from Griese, he was a great QB and deserved the hall, but I think JT was also a tremendous football player and deserves some recognition as well. I believe that he'll be in the hall someday and I believe Miami *should* retire his number. Whether or not he should be on the Dolphins Mount Rushmore is merely my opinion, but I did take into consideration that another Dolphins QB (Marino) deserved it more in my opinion than Griese, so I gave the nod to Taylor, the best DE in my opinion, instead.

Completion %
Bart Starr 57.4
Len Dawson 57.1
Sonny Jurgensen 57.1
Frank Tarkenton 57.0
Roger Staubach 57.0
Bob Griese 56.2
Johnny Unitas 54.6

TD %
Len Dawson 6.4
Sonny Jurgensen 6.0
Bob Griese 5.6
Johnny Unitas 5.6
Frank Tarkenton 5.3
Roger Staubach 5.2
Bart Starr 4.8

INT %
Roger Staubach 3.7
Frank Tarkenton 4.1
Bart Starr 4.4
Sonny Jurgensen 4.4
Len Dawson 4.9
Johnny Unitas 4.9
Bob Griese 5.0