The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Why can't Mike Wallace catch?

How is Mike Wallace any different from Ted Ginn at this point?  The only difference is that Wallace is occasionally servicable, doesn't return kicks, and wasn't selected 9 overall.

Wallace is contributing more than you're giving him credit for, but I agree that he needs to improve, and really needs to get on the same page with Tannehill.

But he did have over 100 yards of offense + drew a pretty important PI call.

Also, there was another missed PI call in the endzone that would've been a TD.  And he is stretching the field.

the drops have been bad no doubt. But he has opened up the middle of the field for Clay and Gibson. Clay's next contract he can thank Wallace for because Clay is getting great match-up's he is able to take advantage of because of the attention Wallace draws

How many 100+ yard receiving games did The Ginn Family have, ever?  Because Wallace has had 2 in five games as a Dolphin.

Wallace is not a possession receiver.  You may recall that Miami recently had one of those and sold him for a bag of peanuts because he wasn't scoring enough TDs.

Two. 

When you are being paid as a top WR, I don't want to see balls thrown at you that hit you in the hands and then fall on the ground.  I recognize his role on the team and realize his contributions.  However, 7 catches for 107 yards or whatever could have been 10 for 150 if he didn't drop balls.  Funny, when Brandon Marshall dropped a bunch of balls, everyone got on his case.  But now Wallace gets a free pass?  

Especially when the big gripe on him from Pittsburgh was his drops?

It was a problem last week as well.  I appreciate his role on the team, but he needs to improve in this area.  Too many drops will bite you in the ass later on.

Which two were they?  I tried to find them but even in the 2009 game where he burned Revis, he only had like 57 yards total.

So basically, you want a receiver that's a deep threat that stretches the field, someone who scores TDs, but also someone who is a reliable possession receiver in crunch time.  Someone like Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson.

If Mike Wallace was one of them, he'd still be a Steeler.  He is not a tier 1 WR.  You should be comparing Wallace to players like Vincent Jackson or Greg Jennings.

10/26/08 - 7 catches for 175 in a 25-16 win over Buffalo at home
9/21/09 - 11 catches for 108 in a 27-23 loss to Indy at home

I'm asking for a guy that can catch balls that hit him in the hands.  Are you implying that guys that run fast will be prone to dropping balls?

IMHO, total yards is a poor measure.  I prefer yards/target.  For the same reason why I think total yards is a bad measure for Rushing preferring yards/carry.  A RB that gets 100 yards on 4 carries is more impressive than one that get 105 yards on 12 carries.  

Name - target - rec - yards - TDs - yards/target  
Gibson - 28 - 20 - 208-0 - 7.4
Hartline 33- 21 - 272 - 2 - 8.2
Wallace 28 -15 - 176 -1 - 6.3
Clay 25 - 20 -245 -1 - 9.8

For each time that Tannehill threw the ball in Wallace's direction the Dolphins got 6.3 yards.  However, for each time the ball was thrown in the direction of Clay the Dolphins gained 9.8 yards.  

I don't buy the whole well someone like Harline is not a deep threat BS.  If Wallace is catching balls 20 yards down the field and Hartline is catching them 2 yards down field, Wallace should have a higher average per target not lower.  

This week alone, they threw the ball to Wallace 16 times, and he only caught 7 of them.

Is that acceptable to you because, well, Wallace stretches the field?

Not really; given that no RB in the NFL is going to consistently gain 25 yards per carry, 4 rushes for 100 yards means you're a situational player that broke a big run.

If you're talking about where the players are catching balls, then the metric you should be using is "average per catch." 

Is he getting paid like Fitzgerald and Johnson?  

You do realize that there is a significant difference between catching a 20-yard bomb and a 3-yard slant, right?

Is he getting paid like Megatron?  Hell no.
Is he getting paid like Fitzgerald?  Maybe.  Fitzgerald has an ancient contract and Wallace's was signed this year.

edit: Fitzgerald was given an 8-year contract for $120 million (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6880867/arizona-cardinals-re-sign-larry-fitzgerald-eight-years-120-million) ($50M guaranteed) in 2011.  So no, Wallace is not being paid like a receiver that does everything.

Disagree.
If I throw 20 balls at Hartline from 10 yards away and he catches 18 of them for 180 yards, then I throw the same 20 balls to Wallace and he catches 6 for 60 yards.  Both average 10 yards per catch, but one is SIGNIFICANTLY better.

No average per catch is a horrible measure.  

Targeted 12 time, caught once for 20 yards is not as impressive as targeted 10 times caught 9 times for 80 yards.

Once again:

If you are going to say that Wallace is catching balls x yards down the field and Hartline is catching balls y yards down the field, it's silly to then compare their yards per target.  Either use catches or targets... don't mix and match.

If you want to say that Wallace is being targeted x yards downfield, feel free.  But that kind of requires that you presume that a 30-yard catch is as easy as a 4-yard catch.

I can remember a couple games when Ginn also made a huge difference in the game on special teams.  He might not have been hauling on 100 yards passing, but he was doing other things.

If this is what the defense for Wallace is...I can make the same for Ginn.

Catching the ball 30 yards down the field and getting tackled at the point of catch vs. catching the ball 4 yards down the field and running 26 yards before being tackled.

If I am the coach both are the same to me.

Per each time I throw the ball in the direction of said receiver what is the expected improvement in field position in combination of distance ball travels in the air and carried by the receiver.

On average when the ball was thrown in Wallace's direction field position improved by 6.3 yards, when thrown in Clay's direction 9.8.

I can remember exactly one game ever where Ginn made a difference on special teams (the same one we all remember).

Outside of two games against the Jets (which does make them more important, but not that much more), Ginn did basically nothing ever.  He wasn't even returning punts after his first year.

How many touchdowns result when the ball is thrown in Dion Sims' direction, on average?

I left Sims, Egnew, and Matthews off for a reason.  The sample size is just too small for any sort of meaningful analysis. 

Enough balls have been thrown in the direction of the four I listed to get a general sense of expectations, that is not true for the other three. 

Didn't see the game, but I'd take 7 catches and 105 yards from my number one receiver any day

Sure, Wallace is giving you decent production, but seemed to drop some balls that we really could've used.  Also, when you have a young QB who's getting as much pressure as it is, you gotta help him out some...especially on balls that hit you in the numbers.

I'm hopeful that in the long run, more of this stuff will work out.  Both sides need improving.  And a little bit of line help so the QB can stand in there and deliver will make a lot of difference.

Wallace has had three TD passes go through or off his hands in two games. Trying to justify why that is ok is pretty silly.

Absolutely. But that's not what he's producing regularly. He's still averaging under 3 receptions and around 56 yards per game. -EK

16 targets.  You didn't watch the game.  Some of the balls he dropped hit him in the hands and would have made a huge difference.

I don't care what you're getting paid, or who you are, if you are a paid RECEIVER in the NFL, at this level, nothing that hits your hands should be anything but a completion.  It hit you in the HANDS!  If it happens multiple times each game, it becomes a big deal.

There are plenty of sure-handed receivers in the NFL.  Davone Bess is one of them.

Man, you sound like a bad girlfriend that just won't let anything go.  ;D (sorry)

I just get tired of the:

"we need a disciplinarian!"
"we need a coach that's not such a dictator!"
"we need a coach that doesn't put up with nonsense!"

"we need an elite receiver!"
"we have too much money tied up in one receiver!"
"we have no receivers!"

"we're spending too many draft picks on offensive linemen!"
"we don't have any offensive linemen!"

treadmill.

It seems to me that the trend of complaining that Miami isn't doing enough of what you just insisted Miami stop doing is rather pervasive since the end of the Wanny era.

Isn't this just one big straw man argument?

No one seems to dispute that Wallace dropping passes is bad and I don't really see anyone defending him.

The Dolphins have very deliberately and publicly decided to go for players with "home run potential". Wallace fits that profile. It's why he was brought in and paid big bucks (but not "elite" big bucks).

If we talk about the stone hands he has (clearly) displayed at times, is it not also reasonable to talk about all the times he has been underthrown? Those were near-certain touchdowns and we're talking at least one every game so far. Wallace should get credit for being open on those, just as he should be slammed for dropping very catchable balls.

Like I said in another thread ... I was listening to the Ravens broadcast team call the game yesterday and they criticized Wallace at least three or four times in reference to his salary in regards to his drops. I don't think Dolphin fans are out of line by expecting him to make the routine catches let alone the impact catches.

That's a good point, and maybe something I should clear up.

I don't expect Wallace to catch everything, because if he did, he would be an elite receiver that PIT never would have let go.  That is the flaw in his game.

He spreads out the defense and gives you quick-strike capability (if your QB can hit him when he's open), but he is not a possession receiver.  That being said, what he does is still worth what he's paid.  If you disagree, just wait until the next offseason and see who gets paid more than Wallace.

Dolphin fans were bellyaching about Marshall's contract, but Percy Harvin and Dwayne Bowe both have larger contracts (average per year) than Marshall does.

I'm not nearly as frustrated with Wallace as I was with Marshall.  I never considered Wallace a top tier guy, though, so maybe that's why.

Plus Wallace doesn't get arrested or have run-in's with cops every other week and isn't yelling at his QB on the sidelines during games or proclaiming he will get thrown out of the upcoming game middle of the week prior. With Marshall the "off the field stuff" was so bad it just overshadowed whatever happened on the field....good or bad.  So until Wallace is at that level of being a moron off the field (which will probably never happen) I am not going to panic 5 games in. And if Wallace totally implodes and sucks in Miami, well its only  a 3 year deal then Miami can wash their hands and not have any real  salary cap issues by letting him go. Not to mention today Miami STILL has $20+ mill of cap space so it isn't like his deal totally has us behind the 8 ball right now.

Not that I don't agree with what you are saying, but keep in mind the Ravens announcers have had some practice knocking Wallace from when he played for the Steelers.

To be clear, I'm also sick of the Spider-Dan treadmill.  I wasn't saying we need to get rid of Wallace.  I appreciate his value to the team.

However, I'm extremely tired of hearing tv broadcasters talking about Wallace and Tannehill not being "on the same page" because balls keep hitting a professional catcher in the hands and he's not catching them.  They've played together for months, I doubt there's any issue of being on the same page.  I just think Wallace needs to fix his drop issues, because we've all been down that road before.  There's no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.

Just out of curiosity, since Marshall's shenanigans were brought up, I have 2 questions:

1. Why does Wallace get a free pass when he makes homophobic remarks to the media and then whines like a diva about not getting balls thrown his way?
2. Since Marshall has been in Chicago, he's a top 5 in the league receiver, with no issues that I can recall off the field or with teammates. What is Chicago doing that Miami failed to do in managing him? -EK

saying something stupid like homophobic remarks and actually being arrested multiple times and run ins with cops are very different!

The next time Wallace has to appear before a judge or wear handcuffs it will be his first time! So until then, the 2 aren't close to being equal. It's just that simple. Saying something stupid isn't equal to hitting a woman, being involved in stabbings, refusing to pay cab driver to the point of having to be carted off in cuffs and being involved in a drive by shooting where someone died! Marshall was an idiot in Denver AND Miami. Just a matter of time before it happens in Chicago....he has a track record. And if he has changed, oh well. Just bad luck Denver and Miami had. Doesn't mean they had to keep him and tolerate his lunatic behavior hoping someday he would change.  Marshall is a first class jerk with a police record the size of a telephone book. Wallace doesn't have a police record. Comparing the 2 is laughable

You will forgive me if, when you ask how a player is "any different from Ted Ginn" (who you thought was NOT worth keeping (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=20625.msg269564;topicseen#msg269564)), I interpret that as you saying that Wallace is also not worth keeping.

But maybe I also underestimated your appreciation of Ginn's value to the team.

My comparison to Ted Ginn was NOT specifically pointed towards reasons to get rid of him, but to highlight the over-rated nature of Mike Wallace compared to public perception of Ted Ginn.

But, yes, I will forgive you for jumping to conclusions.

(If you gravedig further, you will find threads in which I was in favor of keeping Ginn, just for his special teams value.  My statement made in your linked thread was after Ginn was already traded, and the conclusion was foregone.)

Wallace is paid entirely too much to drop as many as he does.

He doesn't get off with me.  This and his shenanigans in week one, being escorted off the the field -- I don't care for either of those.

Thank you for backing me on this. I don't see his behavior on the field as any different than many other diva receivers who at least produce, but there seems to be a blind eye to this around here. -EK

Marshall has been able to resume his bro-mance with Cutler from the Denver days.

There hasn't been any "blind eye" towards Wallace's week #1 tantrum around here, you just didn't read the forums that week because the Dolphins won.

Bingo.

Odd, since I posted about a dozen times in the thread regarding his backpedaling about the comments he made. Seems like I pointed out that he is pretty over rated in THAT thread, too, and got killed for it.

"Mike Wallace cashed in on an amazing season, 3 seasons ago. In his past 25 games, he's averaging less than 50 yards per game and has 11 TDs (and that's with a MUCH better QB throwing him the ball), and he's been as much of a head case since he got to Miami as that certain other WR who was traded and has had 17 TDs and nearly a 90 ypg average during that same time.

Good for him to get a massive contract- but anyone who thinks he's an upgrade over Marshall on or off the field is in for a long year. -EK"

"What we CAN say about Wallace I've already pointed out- he hasn't been producing for quite a while now. 25 games at 51 yards per game is supposed to be an elite caliber receiver? Not so much."

"you don't pay a receiver $60 million to be a decoy. You pay that kind of money to produce- which he hasn't done in quite a while (how does know one see this??). If at the end of the year, Wallace has between 750-800 yards receiving, and Hartline finishes as a 1000 yard guy, where's the return on investment? Hartline did that last year WITHOUT Wallace, so how's the team improved? If you get the same production from Wallace that you did from Bess last year (778 yards) for $45 million more dollars- money that clearly could have been better spent on O-line- no one is going to look at the Wallace signing as a success. 15-50 yards per game can't possibly be what Miami was hoping for."

"They didn't win because of Wallace; I'm not entirely sure they didn't win in spite of him missing at least one very long pass."

^^ Those are only about HALF of the posts from the first two pages of a six page thread. And what was the response?

"Wallace is great! He has 4.4 speed and stretches the field. He's been good for the entire time he's played football. You have to ignore the past season and a half and only look at when he was good to get accurate stats!" -EK

EKnight most definitely did read and post after the Dolphins' week 1 win: he found a thread complaining about Wallace and contributed regularly.  But there was no thread bashing some Dolphin or another after weeks 2 and 3, which might be why you don't recall seeing him then.

Tannehill has underthrown Wallace half a dozen times so far, almost like he doesn't have a feel for Wallace's speed.

Tannehill hasn't hit Wallace cleanly on a single crossing route so far, always placing the ball behind him, almost like he doesn't have a feel for Wallace's speed.

Wallace never seems prepared for where the ball comes, when it actually comes close enough to him to be catchable, almost like he isn't used to catching passes from Tannehill.

Wallace has a habit of running a completely different route than what Tannehill appeared to be expecting (I seem to recall about one a game).

None of these problems seem to exist with any regularity with any of the other receivers on the roster.

All of these combine to give the perception (real or not) that Wallace and Tannehill are not "on the same page".

ha ha ha....so true!

Mike Wallace: free agency flop!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000274269/article/is-mike-wallace-a-freeagent-flop-for-miami-dolphins


"To Warner's point, Wallace was arguably the NFL's most dangerous deep threat over a 12-game stretch from 2010 to 2011, when he reeled off nine 100-yard games. In 36 games since, he's reached 100 yards just five times. He's been held under 50 yards in nearly half of those 36 games."

Gee that sounds familiar.

He also has seven drops this season, third in the league, and is rated by PFF as the 103rd receiver in the league (out of 108).

"Wallace, given a $60 million ($27 million guaranteed) contract by the Dolphins to be the team’s deep threat, has caught a pass for more than 15 yards in just four of seven games this season. He’s caught a pass for more than 25 yards in just three games.

Wallace is 17th in the NFL in targets with 63, so it’s not like the Dolphins aren’t looking for him. But he’s caught just 48 percent of the passes thrown to him which is 94th in the NFL. He has 30 receptions. His former Steelers teammate Antonio Brown has caught 81 percent of passes thrown at him which is 2nd in the NFL. Brown has 56 receptions on 69 targets."

Solid investment there. -EK

Has he been successful with the Dolphins? No.

Could he have had several 50+ yard touchdowns had Tannehill been able to hit him on long passes where he had clearly beaten his coverage? Yes.

He would have to catch them first which is a 50/50 bet at best.

Any videos of these passes where he was open?