The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://www.nfl.com/videos/miami-dolphins/0ap2000000276670/Joe-Philbin-Will-ensure-safe-atmosphere

Unless you think Philbin is straight up lieing here, Martin never mentioned any player conduct as the reason for him leaving until yesterday when the Dolphins were contacted by his representatives. That was after several visits with Martin and his family by Philbin directly after leaving the team. After Miami was contacted by Martin's representatives and the alleged misconduct by players, Miami then did some of their own investigation and that's when the voice mail from Incognito to Martin surfaced. Once they heard that voice mail they immediately decided to suspend Incognito for conduct detrimental to the team last night. I believe that Philbin is telling the truth here and I believe this confirms my belief that Philbin knew nothing of Incognito's conduct prior to yesterday and that Martin had never brought it up to Philbin prior to yesterday. Maybe he should have known, but it doesn't sound like he did or he's the biggest liar the Dolphins have ever employed.

Like Robert DeNiro in the movie Casino:


If you didn't know about it, then you're too incompetent to keep this job. If you did, you were in on it.  Either way, you're OUT!!

I'm not ready to go there in regards to Philbin, but I can respect that position.

I think this part sums it up for me.

As has been previously mentioned, if you decide to simultaneously get rid of all the team leaders to make a statement and your locker room immediately falls apart, that is your fault.

If he did it to make a statement, then that's one thing and that would be a really really stupid thing to do. If on the other hand he did it just because he thought those players weren't what he wanted and wanted some other players, I understand that thought process. Now if it turns out badly it doesn't really matter which it was, but I'm not convinced just yet that it has turned out badly. I'll wait to see how the rest of the year progresses to assess how it has turned out. The Dolphins actually didn't play that bad without both Martin and Incognito in the last game. Perhaps Clabo and Garner can be just as good if not better then Incognito and Martin especially if the bad element has been removed. It is possible for something good to come out of all of this.

Albert Breer reporting that "multiple" Dolphin sources acknowledge Martin approached Philbin in spring of this year. Calling shenanigans that the coach didn't know what was going on right under his nose. -EK

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000275489/article/jonathan-martin-talked-to-joe-philbin-about-issues-in-spring

You must have missed this. "Another source said Martin's O-line mates weren't aware of his previous problems or that he'd met with Philbin, which led those players to believe nothing was wrong."

So members on the O-line weren't aware there were issues? How could this be? These guys probably know when each other gets laid.

The guy didn't say anything for days after he left. Embarrassed and pushed by his family he blames others for him being unable to handle the stress. We hear this everyday all across America and wonder why we are falling behind the rest of the world.

I didn't miss it; I just don't believe it. Of COURSE they're going to say they didn't know. -EK

Wait, let me get this straight. The reason that we, as a nation, are "falling behind the rest of the world" is because, as a nation, we can't handle stress and subsequently blame others?

Just curious...what size foil hat are you wearing these days, CF?

No foil hat. Just pick up a newspaper or watch the news. Everyone who fails or gets caught doing something wrong is because of someone else. Their momma never told them they were special, they are poor, the bad teacher gave me a bad grade, the bus driver was mean to me and made me sit up front, the referee was bias towards me etc. 

What's worse is the people who support and enable those concepts instead of saying your mother never told you were special because you were abusing dogs doing sadistic things with your sisters dolls. You are poor because your sorry arse won't work The teacher gave you a bad grade because you didn't turn in your homework and obviously didn't study for your test. The bus driver wouldn't have bothered you if you had sat in seat instead of running up and down the isles punching people and you lost because your team made less plays than the other team.

We as a society spend much more effort in making excuses of why we can't or didn't than trying to overcome.  As long as it's someone elses fault we are ok sucking at whatever.

^^^ Perhaps you should expand your own news-watching, because the situation you're describing is happening in other cultures as well, not just here in America.

Yup, that is the theory:

The problem isn't that there is too much bullying.  But that those being bullied are too weak and sensitive.

The problem isn't that racism still exists.  It is that minorities are too sensitive about racism.

The problem isn't that this country has country has greater income disparate than third world countries like Kenya.  The problem is that full time McDonald's workers expect handouts b/c they can't get by on minimum wage. 

^^^^^^^

Who can get by on minimum wage besides teenagers who already have living expenses taken care of for them?

CF, I don't mean anything by this statement at all, so please don't take offense...just trying to understand your perspective.

Did you pick on kids in high school?  Would people have looked back on you as a bully?

Were you bullied yourself, perhaps?

I'm not sure it applies to the Martin situation but I'm sure you guys can agree with CF in that there are plenty of instances where people in today's society do make excuses rather than just owning up to their own faults (again I'm not saying this applies in the Martin situation).

Um...Professor, I think he was using sarcasm.  ;)

in your eyes I'd say yes and yes. I played sports and we screwed with each other constantly. We didn't walk the hallways picking on the debate team or anything. For instance, we held each other down and wiped "nut cheese" under a guys nose and he would return the gesture or something worse next time. While it's gross as hell it's a part of being in our core. If you couldn't handle it we wouldn't want you.

I bet if you asked the team they would want Ritchie back and not Martin.  Like Joe Rose said the NFL locker room isn't middle school or the teachers lounge and you can't expect it to run like that.  They have to develop deep trust and bonding with each other.  If you can't handle it it probably isn't for you.

completely different scenarios. You can't run a locker room like a school or office. It more in line with the military. They train hard and do some god awful things together whether we like it or not.

It's becoming clear that Incognito went way to far, even for a "locker room society".  Other former players and coaches are coming out against Incognito's actions, and wondering why other teammates didn't step up.  However, when you have a big bully and a lack of any team hierarchy no one wants to step up to become the next target, or get labeled as the wuss.  With many teams needing O-lineman I can see Martin getting on a new team next year and doing well, but I don't see that for Incognito, not with his history.

So if a non-commissioned officer demanded that privates turn over a portion of their pay to him that would be okay?  Because that would be the equivalent of a team captain demanding that a rookie pay the "virgin tax." 

Could a non-commissioned officer (today, not in 1940) call a  private "n*****?"

Yes. That's exactly what I was saying.  ::)

Why even post if your only intention is to be a dick?

There really are two issues from this story:

1) Incognito (and other Dolphins) went much further than the "normal" locker room hazing.

2) Even "normal" locker room hazing, is out of line with the rules of society.  

You were the one who brought up military. 

I originally posted that what happened would not be acceptable any place I have worked.  You stated that such behavior is acceptable in blue collar and military settings.

I am disputing your claim. 

I think we need to suspend every NFL player. Every time they call each other a cocksucker, n*****, faggot, pussy, lazy piece of shit, or whatever term of endearment they all use it violates some offense to someone.

I've never been in the military but I have numerous friends that have or are even currently serving. I would guess you do too. They are absolutely horrible to each other but let someone else screw with them and see what happens. Not unlike an NFL locker room.

Or they could just stop using such terms. 

Actually, I am okay with calling someone who isn't giving a 100% "a lazy piece of shit."   Calling someone a n***** on the other hand should not be tolerated.   



The military has some very specific bounds that can not be crossed.  Calling someone a n***** or exploiting money from them, crosses that bound and would not be tolerated. 

 

How many of you that are complaining about bullying are also the ones complaining about the NFL getting to be so wimpy? Not ok with mental toughness but no boundaries on physicality?

CF, to cut to the chase here:

What exactly would you find an unacceptable level of bullying/intimidation in the locker room?  Do you believe such a thing is even possible?

I also asked you this before and you didn't respond: in your opinion, what should Martin have done?

yes but in the real world people call each other slang terms all the time. For instance I may call my Mexican friend wetback but he knows I'm not being spiteful. This is pretty common among different ethnicities and friendships. For anyone else to hear it they would think the two hated each other. Especially if it was written down and read back

Martin should have quit a long time ago. NFL football isn't for him. These aren't my words but one of his "black" teammates and I agree. Regardless of Incognito he isn't cut out for this atmosphere and won't be. He comes from a different world altogether.

I don't think you upset the applecart just because one apple doesn't fit.

I think it is unreasonable to ask Martin, who apparently has enough football playing ability to be a starting offensive lineman in the NFL, is to quit his six-figure job (with eight-figure potential) strictly because of unwanted harassment from people on his own team.  From a regulated place of employment perspective, that is clear grounds that something needs to change in the locker room.  These players are not gladiators, nor are they soldiers.  They are professional employees.

I did want to know, though:  what would you find an unacceptable level of bullying/intimidation in the locker room?

Not in the adult world I live in.  I'd bet if an impartial third party asked your "Mexican" friend what he thought about you calling him "wetback" I'd bet he say he doesn't appreciate it.  This reminds me of the old public service announcement with the grandpa talking to his grandson about someone saying the grandson was bigoted.  "Yes Joey you are being bigoted"

Armando Salguero dissects Joe Philbin's press conference.  After reading this, I really do think the coach has something to hide.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/

In the real world are you also telling your "friend" that you'd like to shit in his mouth and slap his mother?


And of course Philbin knows more than he let on. CBS sports is reporting that Martin went to him in April as if it's a given, established fact. You don't dodge those kinds of questions at a press conference unless you have something to hide. -EK

Philbin claims he knew nothing after Martin had left the team AND Philbin subsequently had a one-on-one with Martin?  As Armando said, what did they talk about... zone blocking?

That is true.  I have had similar experiences. There are terms that family and friends have called me without issue, that under no circumstance would I tolerate from someone whom I was not very friendly with.  

I know plenty of African-Americans who call each other n*****s, but that doesn't mean they would tolerate a white coworker who they DON'T LIKE to call them a n*****.  

The important distinction is how the person being called this feel toward the speaker. Just because you have a friend who allows you to call him a wet back, doesn't mean you can go around referring to ALL Mexicans that way.  

I feel like we are rapidly approaching "how come they can use that word but we can't?" territory.

Any man who says that to me would get blindsided by a flurry of haymakers.  After his jaws are broken and he's missing a few of his teeth, we'll see what kind of attitude he has towards slapping my mother.

Then were in absolute agreement that Cognito stepped across a line that went beyond anything defensible as a racial "joke" between friends or acquaintances. -EK

I have a co-worker who says this to at least 5 other co-workers each day.  exactly the same phrase - "I'll shit down your throat"  He has yet to be suspended or fired.  I am not offended by him saying it to me, either.

Have you totally abandoned the professor persona now, or have you just changed your field of academic expertise to the Gladiatorial Sciences?


I can't tell whether you're being serious or deadpan sarcastic here...hoping for the latter.

My being a professor has NOTHING to do with this.  Frankly, with all the shit you've said to people and all the people I've seen leave this site because of you, I'm surprised one of them hasn't gone to Dave and asked him to remove you from this site.  At least it was comforting to see your ass get stripped of your mod powers.

inside of a locker room I'd have a hard time quantifying bullying. In a teamwork atmosphere I have seen the weak being pushed out by coworkers. I don't think this is much different... Even if it was that. Inside of my current job or many others I have had even looking at people and making them feel uncomfortable is not accepted. Two completely different worlds.

So would you say that the concept of bullying or intimidation essentially does not apply within a locker room?

What if Incognito was actually beating up Martin?  Like, physically kicking his ass when he failed in blocking drills, or allowed a sack in the game.
What if he was slashing Martin's tires, keying his car, defecating on his clothes, taking his iPad and throwing it in the pool?
What if Philbin actively endorsed all of the above?

Where do you draw the line?  Is there a line?

You are correct here CF. If Incognito didn't physically involve himself and it was all verbal the Martin is a pussy of the highest order. Most people learn by the 5th or 6th grade to stand up for themselves. Most who don't are mentally weak. Sticks and stones.

You are correct. Calling someone n***** should not be tolerated at work. I may be mistaken, but I think that the voicemails in question were on personal time. Therefore, I would think that calling someone a n***** would be protected under the first amendment. On the other hand, the threats against Martin or his mother could be criminal.
 

The civilian world and the military world are to totally different worlds, moot point.

Before you become a tough guy just remember that. 1) you may get your ass handed to you and/or killed by self defense. 2) arrested for assault and battery. 3) sued for any injuries to the person you (attempt to) assault.

Insults and slurs don't give you a right to touch anyone. And as far as threatening to slap your mother, unless she was present during the threat, I doubt that you would be successful using that as a defense. Everyone's a tough guy and I guess no one has learned from the Travon/Zimmerman circus. You can't just go around getting physical with people or you might just wind up dead.

Yes, locker rooms are different from offices.  But there are laws against workplace harassment.  And in the early 1990's in the locker room of one of your AFCE rivals it was clearly established that there isn't a "locker room exception" to these laws.  

I expect the recent incident will have just as much of a change as that one did.  

The First Amendment has nothing to do with it.  The First Amendment protects you from the government arresting you for what you say, which is not even on the table.

Based on the rest of your post, if a boss tells his married secretary that he would really like to start receiving daily blowjobs from her, but he does so via a text on non-company time, no harm no foul?

sigh .. the first amendment doesn't protect private speech.. .. never has .. never will

How certain are you of that?

Why don't you call up an African-American coworker (not a friend but one who doesn't like you) on personal time and call them a n*****.  Once you are fired, sue your company for wrongful termination on the grounds that your speech was on personal time and not work time and therefor protected by the first amendment.

Harassing a coworker during non-work hours is not an acceptable business practice.  

It also is relevant in what can and can't be liable in a civil suit.  There are very limited times you can sue someone for what they say.

So Pondwater is correct it does have some (but very limited) application. 

If I walked up to you and insulted you or called you a name or a slur to your face. Are you saying that the first amendment doesn't protect that?

The First Amendment applies to the GOVERNMENT arresting you for what you say.

Hoodie, in the case of a civil suit, that would again be the government enforcing a judgment.  It has nothing to do with whether or not you can be fired by an employer for your statements.

First, you are assuming that the call is recorded. Because if it's not the company will probably laugh in his face without proof. Kind of like the old "he said, she said" thing. Second, it can only be legally recorded with my consent unless the conversation takes place in a "one party" state.

TMZ posted a video of Incognito using the N word.


He obviously isn't using it in a derogatory way.

People can argue whether its right or wrong to use racial slurs with their buddies but it happens all the time. With the N word being the worst I think either everyone should use it or no one should use it. On one hand I think it's really stupid for black kids to wear it as a badge of honor when it really dishonors their elders. On the other hand I think we give too much power to names that really have no affect on us unless we let it. If everyone used it it would lose its power over people.

Can I respond?  He should have went to his position coach and told him what was going on, played him the taped voicemail and told him it needed to stop TODAY! If that didn't make it stop he should have gone to Offensive Coordinator Mike Sherman and done the same thing. If that didn't make it stop he should have gone to Joe Philbin, then Jeff Ireland and then the NFLPA and then the NFL and then to the police till it STOPPED. I GUARANTEE you that if he would have done this, sooner or later Incognito would have been off the team or the intimidation would have stopped. As it was once he did this Incognito was suspended.

I cannot believe that I seem to be the ONLY person in America this makes sense to. I take that back, I was discussing this with my daughter who happened to be a nanny and she said this is exactly what she was taught in school and would tell any of her kids. If you are bullied, you don't confront the bully, you tell someone in authority and they will handle it for you. It's not rocket science. This is what they teach you in grade school. Maybe Martin never learned this because up till now he'd never needed it because he was always bigger then the other guy and no one dared bully him? Guys like me, who were the smallest kid in our class, we learned how to deal with bullies at a very young age. There is ALWAYS someone bigger then the bully.

How do you know he DIDN'T go to someone. Every indication is that he told Philbin in April. How do we know Philibin didn't repsond by telling him to mind his P's and Q's because Cog was a veteran and Martin has one year under his belt. How do we know he wasn't told to "be a man" and "toughen up," like some people on this board expected him to do? -EK

Completely serious.  Not a joke.

Not someone. Everyone. You keep on going to people until the problem is resolved. Unless he went to the police and they did nothing, then he didn't go far enough.

No that's not true. Philbin himself says that Martin never mentioned being bullied. The article says that his team mates were unaware of it as well. The article you pointed out said that Martin went to Philbin with issues that he was having. It doesn't say which issue. He could have told him that he didn't like the color of his room. It's been suggested that Martin was dealing with depression, may have been suicidal and was contemplating leaving the team. I believe that is what he talked to Philbin about and I believe that is what he talked to Philbin about after he left the team. Maybe the reason for all that was Incognito, but I don't believe for a second that he told Philbin that Incognito was the reason. A  couple weeks ago Incognito and Martin were seen together enjoying a day off I believe.

I don't, but to believe that you have to believe that Philbin was lieing when he said that Martin never mentioned it to him. I don't believe that Philbin is lieing. You'd also have to believe that Philbin was acting COMPLETELY out of character for him. He's the kind of guy that picks up wrappers off the field, chides QB's for not having their shoelaces tied and embarrasses players for not having used the restroom prior to coming to practice. You honestly think he just ignored racial and threatening voice mails from team mates? Well I don't.

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing a person would do who would side with Cognito and tell Martin to man up. Not "out of character" at all.

The article I mentioned is also not just ONE article. Correct or incorrect, I'm not speculating on, but mainstream media everywhere has picked up on the fact that Martin went to Philbin in April and tried to talk about this. If Philbin really had no knowledge, why does he refuse to answer questions addressing it directly?

Is this the same blind love that Saints fans had defending their coach when he was headhunting other teams? -EK

And as anyone who has ever been bullied in school as a child can tell you, this doesn't work.  PARTICULARLY in the case of children.

Pappy, you seem to be on an incredible run of victim blaming.  First you say that he should have told the authorities, then when it's made clear that he had, you say that he should have told the authorities earlier, then when it comes out that he told the head coach of the football team OVER SIX MONTHS AGO you ask why he didn't go to... the police?

At what point do you assign responsibility to Incognito or Philbin?

You mean like when Philbin said that he spoke with Martin one-on-one right after Martin left the team, but that he (Philbin) had no clue of what was going on until nearly a week later?

If he didn't know what was happening, he is incompetent.  If he did, he is complicit.

I hear Joe Paterno was also pretty strict on the practice field.

Not being told the full story by Martin does not show any imcompetence from Philbin at all.

Disclaimer: I have no idea what Martin told him. You are making an absolute statement without any facts though.

Philbin is paid to win games. As I said yesterday, if Miami wins 8 or 9 or more games.....nobody will care whether he handled the Jonathan Martin situation correctly. It's a non issue! If Miami falls apart and ends with 4-6 wins or something then he is in trouble anyway and this is just another thing to have against him and can build a case for firing him.

Martin said he spoke to Philbin about this in April.  Philbin apparently did not follow up on it or just brushed it under the rug.  Maybe Martin was vague and Philbin had his JoePa "shucks, I only know about football" glasses on.  Fine.

Martin storms out on the team in the middle of a short week.  Philbin has a one-on-one with him.  At this point, it should be obvious to any reasonably competent coach (given that your starting lineup is now being affected) that there is a problem in your locker room.  But according to Philbin, as far as he knew (AFTER meeting with Martin!), there was no problem.  Even though his starting right tackle is holding himself out of the game over it.

Incompetence or complicity; I think Philbin is too smart for it to be the former.

Okay - we are morphing about three subjects from four threads "out there" into this one.  Additionally, while this one is "simmering" - there are tones here that are becoming a little...well...uncomfortable .  This one has run it's course.  We're going in circles.  Good talk, but we're closing shop on this one.