The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/1204/article/p2p-78065907/

If the latest rumors are true, Philbin better pack his bags.  I don't see him surviving this.

OK. Who's going to scream out, "YOU WANT ME ON THAT WALL! YOU NEED ME ON THAT WALL!"? Ireland, Philbin, Sherman, or Incognito? Because if this story is true, somebody ordered the Code Aqua.

They were right in that Martin is incredibly soft and needed toughening up. They were wrong in sending a psychopath to do the job.

Philbin will get fired based on his wins and losses this season.....not because of this!

Then Philbin better be prepared to get a lot of effing wins.  Right now, I'd say he's around one playoff win or GTFO.

Additionally, the article says that Incognito was asked by coaches to "toughen up" Martin after he missed a voluntary workout "last spring."  If that voluntary workout was after Martin had went to Philbin with his Incognito problems (reportedly in April), Philbin is done in this league, and any coach whose name is on it is also done.

What we are talking about is management-ordered retaliation against a player who brought a legitimate concern to his superiors because that player elected not to attend a voluntary workout.  This is NFLPA, NLRB, enormous lawsuit and federal investigation territory.  No joke.

I don't think its as bad as you are making it out to be

You guys are sad. If "toughen someone up" is retaliating or bullying now we've got to blow up football all the way down to Pop Warner.

Spider has a point. The fact that Martin is using representation outside of the NFLPA speaks of a potential lawsuit. The NFL doesn't like lawsuits. At the same time, the Dolphins didn't outright cut Incognito. They merely suspended him. Which says they're trying to weigh their options. If it comes out that Philbin ordered a Code Aqua, he's through. Remember the Saints.

YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

yeah Sean Payton is still coaching there!

+1 for movie reference and classic movie scene

Adios Muchacho!

This is gonna burn Philbin in the end and cost him his job, which I'm not too disappointed in. He seems very aloof and his pressers are just a robotic exchanges between him and the media.

His whole "my kinda of people" and "character guys" spiel is just bullshit. This is a continuation of the Parcells system that was in place. Say one thing, do another. Tuna's fins are still all over this team, from VP Aponte down to Jeff Fireland.

Payton is a Superbowl winning head coach. Philbin is a second year coach with a losing record during those two years. You can't equate one with the other. -EK

Payton has a Super Bowl ring.  Philbin doesn't have shit

Omar just said something to Joe Rose that was pretty relevant in this whole situation. The NFL & Dolphins have to be very careful in handling this. For instance ... if you use Richie as the scapegoat to cover it up "he knows where the bodies are buried" and can blow this league out of the water. This goes for the coaching staff as well but I think Richie is the guy everyone would be afraid of the most. 

Thank you for making my point. Winning cures all. If Miami wins 8 or 9 or more games he will stay. If he ends up with 4 or 5 or 6 losses maybe he is fired. Philbin will be judged based on his wins or losses not this!

Winning does cure all. Finishing 8-8 or even 9-7 is not what I would consider "winning" when you started 3-0 and spent what $200 million in free agents? -EK

In Miami they aren't going to fire a coach who goes 8-8 or 9-7 improved off the previous season. Not after the decade plus of losing they have had. Situation is different for all teams.

Shit, I forgot you work in the front office and have an inside track on what they'll do. My bad. -EK

No, this ^^ is very true. 

Sorry, MikeO - the NFL does not exist and operate in a vacuum.  They are still an employer.  If it's proven out this was out of management-ordered retaliation?  This will get worse before it gets better. 

BECAUSE it's the NFL it will become a circus, too.  Like "congress will want hearings" circus and would be larger than bounty gate.  Officials on a team gave "open rights" to bully / terrify a player out of retaliation?  I can see the Anderson Cooper 360 reports now.

I really don't think its gonna get that far. Bounty gate was trying to injury players. Nobody got injured here. Martin is still being paid and technically still on the roster.  Not saying it isn't bad but I don't think its as bad as some are making it out to be. Time will tell though and we will see who is right or wrong on this.

Congress isn't getting involved either. I think that's silly and the NFL will squash this before it ever gets that far. NFL won't let that happen.

Who is the NFL going to punish ... themselves? They know what goes on.

I'll just say this, an order to toughen up Martin was probably OK. The guy is a bit soft (anyone remember complaining about him before all this broke out). That said, sending Incognito as the messenger was the mistake. The guy has a role of enforcer on the team but it is apparent he is a bit psychotic.

Lets see how good the NFL is at squashing this.  They were able to successfully squash Spygate but I don't think periods are going to remain silent on this.

Having a winning season isn't enough.  When Bill Belichick's scandal broke he wasn't just a winning head coach, he was the best head coach in the league and far and away the best coach that New England ever had.

When Sean Payton's scandal came out he wasn't just a winning head coach, he was the best coach the Saints have ever had and holder of the AP coach of the year.  

He needs to be more than just a winning coach that has a win-loss record that matches Wannstedt.  He needs to be the second Dolphin coach to hold a Lombardi.  

Time will tell who is right or wrong on this. But this isn't going to Congress and nobody is going to jail I would bet a large sum of money on that

The NFL is not some club.  It is a government sanctioned monopoly with a union.

Spider is right.  If this is true, this is big problems for Philbin, depending on the timing.  This can cost the NFL a fortune potentially and Philbin will be the fallguy.

That isn't going to happen "THIS SEASON", they aren't winning the Super Bowl this year. So you are saying he will be fired over this then. Am I understanding your stance?

That's my stance exactly. -EK

Injuries are one thing.  I think you're grossly underestimating how "PC" this nation is.  Someone's feelings are hurt.  That's almost worse.  No, I'm not trying to sound flip.

We are a nation that doesn't bat an eye when a school bus flips over and 17 kids get killed, but if a dog were on board?  Oh boy...(IE, we have whacked priorities).

I see this shaking out very similar to Lisa Olson.  

Incongnito done.

A losing head coach loses his job. (Philbin)

Dolphins pay a boatload of money to Marin.

NFL issues formal a formal policy regarding behavior that specifically addresses the worst of the hazing (such as the racial epitaphs  and specifically banning rookies from paying for vets)

LOL....so true!

Yes, he will be fired.  However, the team might not say cite the Martin incident specifically as a reason.

Well if they go 9-7 or 10-6 and they fire him...its gonna be pretty obvious why they did it. In your other post above I agree with with Martin getting paid and Richie done, not so sure about the Philbin one though. I could see low level assistant (Jim Turner) be a a fall guy before him. I think this case is unique and I'm not sure Philbin's head will roll over this. We will see though and time will tell which one of us is right on this

An order to "toughen up Martin" after he has come to you with what (from a legal standpoint) is unquestionably a valid grievance about workplace conditions is most certainly NOT OK.  Again, NFL players are not gladiators, nor are they soldiers.  They have the same legal labor protections as other employees in America.

But if this order came in response to Martin missing a voluntary workout?  The NFLPA will come down on this like a prehistoric meteor.  A record of management openly retaliating against a player for missing a voluntary workout would be a significant problem for the NFLPA in normal conditions; management committing a labor law violation (yes, there are labor laws against workplace harassment, as well as criminal laws against extortion) while directly asking another player to retaliate is nuclear.

Like I said in another post... The NFL has known about these practices and everyone knows it.  Whomever is made the scapegoat will either be compensated for taking one for the team or Pandora's box is going to be opened!

Btw.... Even the local high schools voluntary workouts aren't!! Wink wink

Going 10-6 is probably the worst case situation for Ross.

Dolphins make it to the AFCCG, Ross can cite Philban's ability to rally the troops after adversity.    

Dolphins get blown out by Tampa and Ross can get rid of next Monday on the basis of lacking leadership.  

CF, right now the story from other NFL players is, "Yeah, we know about light-hearted stuff but these voicemails from Incognito are way over the line, and forcing someone to kick in $15K for a trip they didn't go on is crazy."

Pandora's box wasn't opened with Spygate and it wasn't opened with Bountygate.  The Dolphins will be made an example of and everyone will move on.

There are more repercussions to getting rid of these guys in my opinion. Will make for an interesting blow up of the league. There's way more than the light hearted stuff going on. I promise you!!!

And if you think Richie is the only guy on our team then you are foolish.

You are stretching what I said. In no way and I excusing retaliation tactics. I simply said Martin did need some toughening up. Besides, your timeline may be screwed up. Voluntary workouts happened in April. Incognito's call happened in April. Martin claims to have gone to Philbin in April. You are assuming one is before the other but it may be the other way around. Am I suggesting they told Incognito to go to this extreme, no way.

Bingo.  Does anybody seriously believe that Sal Alosi was acting on his own or that he was first person to get into a players way?

The everybody does it defense is has a horrible win record.    

But behavior will change in everyone's locker room. 

Sorry, Spider, but you are blowing this up to be WAY more than it is.

1) You are the only one using the word "retaliation."  No media outlet has suggested that Philbin has twirled his thumbs in his office saying "I'll show him for missing practice... MUAHAHAHA!!"

2) OTA's are labeled as "optional" but are not optional.  Stars like tom Brady and Peyton Manning can miss OTA's.  Jonathan Martin is expected to attend.

3) Martin missed OTA's in April, but never mentioned why or brought up a concern about being harassed until THIS WEEK.  You make it sound like Martin went to Philbin and said "Coach, Richie's being a dick to me" and Philbin said "Hey, Richie, good job, be MORE of a dick to him"

4) The story says "coaches" asked Richie to toughen him up.  There are lots of coaches.  Doesn't specifically point out Philbin. I'm guessing this could be Turner's doing, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's fired in the next 1-2 weeks.  I don't see Philbin's job being in jeopardy just yet, unless this gets even worse.

Let's try to keep facts in line here.  I feel like this story is getting out of control with rumors, mixed up timelines, and speculation.

If Martin's visit with Philbin happened after the Code Aqua then Philbin is definitely in trouble.  He essentially generated harassment that Martin was complaining about and did not follow up with Incognito to make sure it stayed within the bounds of reason.  It's bad, and shows incompetence on his part, but he can recover from it and there probably won't be NLRB involvement.

If Martin's visit with Philbin happened before the Code Aqua then Philbin is unemployable in the NFL, Incognito is done, NFLPA will scramble the jets, NLRB/feds will get involved, and Martin won't have to worry about any lost earning potential because he'll be one of the best paid NFL players in recent memory after his multimillion-dollar lawsuit.

NFL response... Richie was over zealous but not mean spirited. Sensitivity training for him! Lol

While this might be the unwritten rule from within the fraternity, if someone doesn't participate and then something like what happened to Martin is justified to encourage the optional practice, then the union will lose their shit.

I really think you guys are missing that this isn't just some company.  It's government sanctioned, because it's a monopoly.  Unions are serious business and have a lot of power.

This is where you lose me and go way overboard with this. Hell even Gregg Williams is coaching in the NFL today. Philbian is unemployable? Not even close...Give me a break!!

That isn't needed.  Player misses practice.  Coach singles out said player for punishment.  A reasonable person can conclude retaliation, without addition evidence.  


That was a sticking point of the strike/lockout.  Your take is a violation of the agreement.


He snapped this week.  The abuse was on going.

Philbian won't get a lifetime ban from the NFL. 

But that doesn't mean he gets another job.  Sal Alosi didn't get a lifetime ban and he is out of the NFL. 

Williams has an excellent record as DC and got a job as an assistant DC instead of being a DC because he is toxic.  Philbian has a mediocre record, why would any team want him? 

He was an excellent offensive coordinator. Let's not start re-writing history now. To say no team would make him a QB coach, or a TE coach, or an OC is beyond silly.

yeah, he might get a position coaching position.  but no higher. 

You still don't seem to grasp the gravity of this.

Spygate was one team's unfair competitive advantage.  Outside of some politicians that have constituents in Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, no one that matters gives a crap.

Bountygate was players trying to hurt other players on coaches' orders.  The NFLPA "cares" but given that it's also their players doing the headhunting, their capacity for moral outrage is somewhat limited.  Beyond that, no one that matters (again, outside of Minnesota) cares.

In this case, if it was just the bullying, NFLPA wouldn't really care.  One of their members is harassing another one; they don't have a dog in the fight.  But management retaliating against a player for exercising collectively-bargained benefits is one of the NFLPA's primary reasons for existence.  There are very few issues that they would care about more than a coach ordering retaliation (on the record) for missing a voluntary workout.

Furthermore, if this retaliation caused workplace harassment, and followed prior complaints of workplace harassment (from the same source, Incognito) this is potentially a labor law issue, and unlike Spygate or Bountygate, it's not going to be transparent shilling from losing teams' congressmen.

Fine. But saying he is "unemployable in the NFL" is laughable!

No I get the gravity of it. But some statements people are making on this site like Philbin is unemployable in the NFL, Congress will get involved, criminal charges are coming are laughable. They really are. People may get fired yes....but this notion that guys will serve hard time or never work again in the NFL is just silly!

Some of you are just overreacting big-time. Martin wasn't physically injured. Martin is still getting paid. Martin is still on an NFL roster. Incognitio has been suspended. Now when this all shakes out Martin might get a big settlement from the Fins/NFL, the Fins entire coaching staff may be fired,it could happen, the Fins could lose draft picks as a punishment, Ross could pay a hefty fine...all of that COULD happen. But this notion Philbin will never work in the NFL again and he is unemployable (as an assistant or anything) is just f'n silly! I mean its laughable it really is.

This aspect of it will concern the NFLPA more than the other two scandals.  But it doesn't make it a worse scandal.  NFLPA needs to walk the same fine line it did with Bountygate as they represent both Martin and Incongtigo.

I dare say more fans cared that NE may have had an unfair competitive advantage or the Saints were purposefully trying to injure their favorite player, than that Martin got bullied. 

Congress isn't getting involved.

Worst case for the NFL, former players who was forced to pay for another team mates meal sues for reimbursement.     

But you keep saying "It comes down to wins and losses!" like Philbin got a DUI or something.

If he ordered retaliation for missing a voluntary workout, and the method of retaliation itself was an illegal violation of labor law, he's done.  He will not have the opportunity to collect wins, because he will be fired before the season is up.

When I said he was "unemployable," I meant as a head coach.  Sure, some team could hire him as QB coach 5 years from now.

1) yeah he has to wait 5 years to get another assistant coaching job in the NFL  ::)  That's what I mean. Silly talk that makes no sense and is laughable. Like I said what Gregg Wililams did was far worse than anything Philibin "POSSIBLY" may have done. Williams sat out 1 year, then back in the league

2) Hate to break it to ya it really does come down to wins and losses when all is said and done. If Miami goes 10-6....guess what. They ain't firing Philbin. They will do a Saints/Sean Payton let him be suspended for a year and wait for him and keep the staff in place because obviously something is working.  Now if Miami goes 5-11...yeah he is probably a gonner! If you think wins and losses plays no factor in this you are fooling yourself.

Not really.  The retaliation order is all they would care about, and they would care a great deal about it.  Again, it's their reason for existence.

Fan opinion is irrelevant.

Worst case for the NFL (and I include the Dolphins in that) is that:

- NFLPA sues them for CBA violation (or whatever the appropriate recourse is... arbitration?)
- Martin sues Dolphins for several labor law violations (harassment & extortion, retaliation from management)

It's pointless for you guys to keep going back and forth. There are some people here- likely ones who think of themselves as "true diehard fans"- who are incapable of admitting wrong-doing by the organization or anyone associated with it. Even after Philbin is fired, they'll still argue that it was unfair. This is an absolute, black and white, cut and dry situation: any other workplace and there's not even a discussion. If people don't get that right off the bat, debating it for hours will not enlighten them. -EK

1) You aren't a fan at all of this team so judging others as "die-hards" is foolish by you
2) EVERYONE has admitted wrong-doing by the Fins and how this took place. What message board are you reading? But until ALL of the facts come out (which they haven't) to make absolute statements like this guy will be fired and never work in the NFL again is laughable. Or Congress needs to step in. Or people are going to jail for hate crimes over this...i mean its nonsense. None of it even makes sense.


If Philbin did something wrong and is fired nobody will argue that it is unfair. Don't "make up" stances and then come out against them. Because nobody has said if Philbin did wrong and is fired it would be unfair.

Not from the NFLPA's perspective, it isn't.  And that has to be the primary concern of the league right now: one of their coaches may have just handed the NFLPA a club to bludgeon them with.

It's a big deal, and Philbin is no Belichick or Payton or Williams.  He does not have the history in the league to get people to just overlook this kind of stuff.

Anyone remember this story?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/hard-knocks-jets-defensive-vernon-gholston-fighting-chance-article-1.205766

Coaches ask an o-lineman to pick a fight with a defensive player to see how he responds.

Better, different, or worse?

Mike, you've downplayed every instance of this from the start. I don't need to be a fan of the team to see that some of the teams fans are out of touch with reality. -EK

Time will tell which one of us is right or wrong. Time will tell! We will see how this plays out

I said CUT Incognitio the minute the story broke.  Don't re-write history now and make stuff up like you always do!

The first one gets settled for something in the 6 digit range.  (Chump change)
Second one gets settled by the Dolphins fully paying the remaining balance on his four deal (or at max double that) ($3-$6 million)  

Not really comparable.  There are two major factors at play now:

1) retaliation for missed voluntary workout
2) Martin had (reportedly) already come to management and complained about harassment

Those radically change the playing field.

I honestly have no context and could not even begin to put a number on the first.
As to the second, Martin would be able to argue, fairly, that his ability to get a job in the (monopoly) NFL has been irrevocably compromised.  Given the rather egregious nature of the situation (Philbin didn't just ignore the complaints; he ordered an increase in harassment, for illegal reasons even) I would see him cashing out at no less than $10M.  (Look at the average career length of tackles that start their first ~24 games, calculate career contract value based on that and draft position.)

This is all contingent on the order at which events took place.

And since then you've said that no one is getting fired, no one will be arrested, no Congress will never have any investigation, etc. All of which is just as speculatory as anything I said. -EK

On Congress and nobody being arrested yes I did say that. And I am 100% right on that.

On the firing you are wrong. I said it will play a factor in his firing but it won't be the only reason why he is fired IF he is even fired.

By the time that training camp starts next year, that will be specifically prohibited, unless it already is.  

What we don't know is if that incident resulted in a response from Godell.  (e.g.  While I am not taking any action against the Jets at this time, I want it to be clear that coaches are to discourage fights, not encourage them.  Any future incidents will result in sanctions)

I would be shocked if it didn't.  

Completely insane.  Best case he could hope for is around $10 if it goes to trial and gets a very generous jury.  But if it goes to trial he risks getting a jury with folks like CF DolFan on it and he gets nothing. 

So he settles in the middle. 

Particularly if the Dolphins act quick.  As in before next season they tell him here is the deal, "you release the team, NFL, Philban, all players other than Incongtigo etc from all liability, and we will fund the remainder of your contract AND you become a FA who can sign elsewhere with no offset."

OR in the off-season they offer to extend his contract.  Fully garreneetting the remaining balance of his current contract.   

Spidey, you are again making accusations without any evidence. Why do you have Philbin singled out as your only talking point. Incognito puts it on staff but never said Philbin said to toughen up Martin.

You think best case is $10 for a situation in which he was extorted for $15k?  That's completely insane.

The absolute minimum would be the remainder of his contract.  That's with zero punitive damages, which seems unlikely.

Martin went to Philbin directly.  Philbin is the head coach.  If one of your coaches is ordering illegal retaliation via an issue you have personally received workplace harassment claims over, you are incompetent or complicit.

I don't remember anyone ever claiming that Sean Payton personally offered them a bounty.  So what is your explanation for why he was suspended?

Again you are back to your assumptions which I pointed out once. You do not know the timeline. How do you know the toughen Martin up statement did not happen first? You are assuming retaliation, you are assuming it was Philbin, you are assuming timelines, etc. None of this is known to us as the public.

I have stated repeatedly that it is contingent on timelines.


I am saying it's retaliation because as reported (Incognito was told to toughen up Martin after Martin missed a workout), it is obviously retaliation.

Yelling at someone after they get a holding penalty is retaliation also. I do not think the staff had expectations of causing a mental breakdown. As stated their goal was to get Martin into the program, not isolate and run him away from the team.

Players do not have the right to get holding penalties written into the CBA.

And if Martin had already come to them complaining about harassment, asking the same player accused of harassment to "toughen up" his alleged victim is deplorable.

If the Queen had balls she'd be the King also.

Martin can stay out ot OTA's but there is nothing wrong with (and I don't want a coach who wouldn't) persuading team members to be part of the community though.

I don't think it was gone about the right way but I expect the intentions were honest enough. Pressure Martin to join the team in OTAs and toughen his character a bit.

^^^^ You're right. There's nothing wrong with persuading someone to attend OTA's. However, you can't use strong arm tactics. Especially ones that can be recorded. There's a right way & a wrong way to get the same point across. What people seem to miss is that there are regulations that must be adhered to. Timing and authority are everything here. Lawsuits cancel out win-loss records. Just like they would cancel out any performance record you may have at your job. Its just a question of how high does this go.

Spider is the ONLY one that keeps using the word "Retaliation"

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt for a second...

Martin misses practice...

Coach: "Jonthan, why weren't you at today's practices?"
Martin: "coach, I don't feel like the guys are accepting me, cause they keep teasing me..."
Coach: "OK, Jonathan, we'll address it."

Coach: "Richie, you're the leader of that o-line, as a veteran guy and member of the leadership council, maybe you can talk to Jonathan and get him back into camp?"
Richie: "sure thing, coach!"

Richie: "Hey, you half-n----- piece of shit..."

Can you see how this seemingly innocuous situation has evolved into today's headlines?  As a member of the media, how does the above situation violate any of the headlines that have been posted the past few days?

You can't possibly know this though. How can you say "I'm 100% right," and go so far as to bash other posters for their presumptions when yours are just as likely to be wrong? Years ago when Canseco said half of baseball was juicing, no one thought Congress would get involved either or that players would be brought in front of a judge for various felonies. -EK

He didn't "miss practice"!

He elected not to attend a voluntary off-season workout.  According to the terms of the CBA, there should be zero management response to that.  ZERO.  Instead, management chose to send a player accused of harassing Martin to "toughen him up."  That is retaliation, plain as day.

Or (depending on timing), maybe Martin skipped the voluntary workout, then they sent Incognito (a player with a known history of behavior problems) after him.  In that case, management was responsible for making sure that Incognito "toughened Martin up" in a way that was in concert with team guidelines.  Not only did they not monitor the situation, as late as Sunday they were claiming they didn't even know it existed.

Sure I can. Congress isn't going to waste its time with this story/issue. While this issue/story is "big" in the football world its not so "big" it trumps real issues in the real world that needs the attention and time of congress! Seriously....what do you want congress to ask Ross/Philbin/Martin/Richie that would warrant time in Washington DC spending 3 seconds on this matter?

You need to take a hard look at the general perception of bullying in America. It's a massive issue in schools and the media, and significantly bigger than steroids in baseball. If Congress got involved there, there's no reason to believe with such condescending certainty that they wouldn't here. -EK

LOL, I will be waiting for Ted Cruz, Chuck Schumer and the the rest of the gang on the hill to bring in a bunch of folks from the Dolphins organization and ask them ....well what I don't know and for what reason I really don't know. I will set my DVR to CSPAN now so I don't miss it when it happens.

Along that line:

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2013/11/miami-dolphins-bullying-issue-makes-it-to-the-white-house-briefing-room.html

The story is beyond "football news" at this point. The fact that a reporter would even as the president about it has opened the door for government involvement on some level. -EK

Congress might take up bullying in schools, and as a side note discuss if the NFL is setting a bad example.  They aren't going to hold hearings regarding the conduct in NFL locker rooms as a stand alone issue.  

Judges will be involved with the  lawsuits.  

Exactly!

That is a huge leap.  If the president brought up the issue, it is meaningful.  A reporter asked a question, means the reporter thinks it is important not that the Pres is planning to get involved.  

that would have gone better in another thread. 

Agreed! Presidents get asked silly questions all the time. Doesn't mean they will launch a full investigation on the matter.

I'm not saying they will or won't. I'm saying that if they got involved with PEDs in baseball as a stand alone issue, how can you say with 100% certainty they won't be involved here? I actually think it's unlikely, but I'm still trying to figure out how the baseball thing was a Congressional matter too. Given that situation, there's just no way to say anything with 100% certainty at this point, other than the fact that anyone who defends the actions of Incognito, his teammates who "rally" around him (notice most of the rest of the NFL thinks he's a douche for doing this), and the coaching staff who were clearly involved, is a jackass. -EK

You completely disregarded the meat of the post in favor of an argument of semantics.  If the coach wants to know why Jonathan Martin missed a voluntary workout, a team practice, a photo shoot, or a kid's birthday party, the hypothetical situation remains the same.

Consider they asked Richie Incognito, captain of the offensive line and veteran leader of the club, to talk to Jonathan Martin, and not psychopath murderer Richie Incognito.  The story you are portraying changes completely, from "deliberate retaliation" to "normal behavior" which was taken too far by one person.

YOU are the one OVERplaying the story, not everyone else UNDERplaying it.

It's not semantics.  This is like your boss telling someone to "toughen you up" because you took vacation time that you had earned.  It is nothing like missing the team photo or a team charity event or anything where your attendance is expected/required.

Consider that in this case, veteran leader and sociopath who had been kicked off of multiple teams for his conduct are both equally accurate.

First off: I'm not talking about what Incognito actually did.  That is outside the scope of the retaliation issue.  With that established, either:

1) Martin did not attend the voluntary workout, Philbin sent Incognito to "toughen him up," Incognito went overboard, Martin complained, and Philbin did nothing.  This makes Philbin incompetent, and passively complicit through willful ignorance (in the same vein as JoePa, but on a matter of decidedly less import).

or

2) Incognito was doing his thing from the start, Martin complained, Martin did not attend the voluntary workout, and then Philbin sent Incognito to "toughen him up."  Sending Incognito to "helpfully mentor" the person who has previously complained about harassment from him is retaliation, and Philbin has actively and intentionallly created a hostile work environment for Martin.

You're wrong.  You're joining two items together without any evidence that they are related.  You're assuming that the "toughen up" comment was made as a result of missing OTA's.  Prove it.  You can't assume that one is a direct result of the other.  You're also assuming the Martin directly pointed out Incognito in his initial complaint, which I have not seen specified anywhere.

Regardless of timeline, making that jump is pure speculation.  Details matter.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-miami-dolphins-hazing-1106-20131105,0,1628986.story

Miami Dolphins coaches asked player Richie Incognito, who was the offensive line's undisputed leader, to toughen up teammate Jonathan Martin after he missed a voluntary workout last spring, multiple sources told the Sun Sentinel.

If you're going to claim that this is ambiguous then the entire concept of retaliation goes out the window.  "Just because a player reported illegal PED use in the locker room and we cut the player a week later, why are you calling it retaliation?"

Does this type of bullying and pranking happen in other organizations around the NFL?

It would seem to me that a group of people trying to work together to become the best in the world at something wouldn't do these types of things very often. I'm just not sure how organizing pranks in the lunch room and verbally abusing co-workers is helping reach an ultimate goal of winning a superbowl. I'm not saying that they can't have fun or joke around and enjoy playing the game. But I'm not sure how this helps the big picture.

I have a hard time believing that the more established organizations over the last decade engage in these types of practices as a means to bring the team together to win a superbowl. Again, maybe i'm off base and all teams do these types of things.

^^^ Pranking happens on every NFL team, baseball team, NBA team, every team in the world in every sport. It happens in every social fratenity as well. Men have a nature of bonding by busting on each other.

Yea, I understand that there are pranking and hazing going on at every level of sports and I also believe that it's a great way for a group to bond. But is it going on to this extent on other teams? Where guys are feeling like they are being mentally abused?

I think we need to consider how this broke down as well. Martin took part in these pranks. The prank that caused him to slam his tray and leave was a prank he took part in on someone else just a week prior (getting up and leaving the table). I agree that call was over the top but that was April. Did Martin sit and stew on that call until now? Were there other events between the two? Why has Martin and his people not brought up anything other than these two situations?

I think there is still a lot more to be learned about what was exactly happening.

This is undoubtedly true and I think everyone understands that.  A lot of us are saying "if this happened at this time, then I feel this way."

All reports coming out now say that Martin and Richie were close friends on the surface.  Tannehill called Martin "Richie's little brother"

How do you go from "brothers" to enemies overnight?

Up vote.

One thing I know about bullying first hand - sometimes other victims are only too willing to join in to save their own asses. It isn't a nice feeling to have people you thought were your friends and who you could rely on turn on you for no other reason. It's even worse when you're backed into a corner with no way out as well as no support.


I agree with this - there's a lot of information and possible misinformation being leaked out right now.

Lots of misinformation. Only source who seems to be on the ball with this is  Adam Beasley. He has had accurate stuff from the beginning and hasn't rushed stuff out only to tweak it or change it later.

Adam Beasley tweets that are interesting....

Adam Beasley ‏@AdamHBeasley 2h
Everybody we've talked to says how close they were. Hartline was on fire.

Tyson Clabo is irate at Jonathan Martin: "I don't know why he's doing this. ... This is ridiculous."

and finally this ....Adam Beasley ‏@AdamHBeasley 15m
It's pretty clear the Dolphins locker room thinks the whole country got played like a fiddle.

Clabo:You guys are trying to make it about locker room, and this 'secret code' that you guys want to make up or whatever.

I keep seeing "Sources" report Incognito was told by coaches to toughen him up. Who's the source? I want a name. Otherwise it's complete bullshit. Made up by the media.

Hijack alert: Lets just say hypothetically, that a Code Aqua directive was given for Martin. How did the logo escape a similar directive?

.....and now back to our regularly scheduled thread. Already in progress.