The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/

Excerpt:

Per multiple league sources, Dolphins G.M. Jeff Ireland received a call from one of Martin’s agent, Kenny Zuckerman, after Martin left the team on October 28. Zukerman complained to Ireland about the manner in which Incognito was treating Martin.

Ireland, according to the sources, suggested to Zuckerman that Martin physically confront Incognito. Ireland specifically mentioned that Martin should “punch” Incognito.

Note that Dolphins' management continued to feign ignorance for nearly a full week after this reportedly took place.

If this is true, I have no problem firing Ireland. He's a bigger idiot then I thought, but honestly this wouldn't surprise me. If this story was about Philbin it would shock me.

This is actually great news.  It's the damning evidence that will force Mr. Ross to clean house at the end of the year.  We all know Philbin doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL head coach and that Ireland is a piece of shit GM.  But knowing Mr. Ross, he would've kept them on after this season and we would've had to suffer through several more years of being a sub .500 team if not for Bullygate.  Mr. Ross needs to sweep out the front office and coaching staff from top to bottom, then spend whatever it takes to hire the best GM and best coach out there.  

I couldn't disagree more with your opinion, i think it's short sighted and naive.

Changing coaches every 3 years is what leads your team to be a bottom feeder. keep the GM, keep the coach .. give them 10 years .. then see where we stand.

Don't be surprised if your next head coach is from the CFL or Marc Trestman's staff.

 

SOMEONE GETS IT!

Spread the word!

Actually, no, we DON'T ALL KNOW that.  You're the only one that thinks that...  And frankly, its moronic.

His advice is good, he should have physically approached Incognito. It's what everyone thinks, he just had the guts to say it.

Perhaps, but you have to understand roles here.  Should the nerd rise up and sock the bully one time?  Sure...and if you're the parent or the friend, maybe you suggest that.  ...but the teacher can't suggest that.

It shows poor judgment on Ireland's part, if true.  ...though it's after the fact, so I don't think this is near as damning as if he'd, say, told this to Martin directly if he were making a complaint.

I'd argue there are no nerds in the NFL locker room outside of a kicker. It's an Alpha male fraternity or they aren't reaching that level.

Martin by all accounts is not an alpha male. He went to private school, then Stanford (which us culturally much different than many of the other guys schools), and seemed out of place in the locker room (accounts are he was quiet and had trouble making eye contact at first). The guy really fits the nerd role pretty well.

^^^^

CF and Phish posts are the crux of the issue.

Martin isn't an alpha male.  But he is a decent O-lineman.

Most of the players in an NFL locker room are Alpha males.

The issue is what do we do with the non-Alpha males who are physically capable of playing football (rare as they maybe) --- drive them out and keep the NFL culture as it is OR change the culture to one that accepts anyone who can help the team win games? 

Actually I would say a more accurate analogy would be....

Child leaves school without permission over being bullied at lunch (and possibly other times).  Parent calls the principal over the bullying hoping to workout a way for the child to return and be safe.  Rather than the principal telling the parent that he will crack down on the bullying, principal tells the parent that the kid should punch the bully in the mouth. 

Best comment from the article....

Again, this is one-sided commentary relayed by Martin's agent, and likely taken out of context.  I'd like to hear the full conversation before making a judgment.  The only word in quotes in this statement is "punch".

This is accurate in more ways than one: management is responsible for the culture in the locker room.

A point I've seen made is that asking Incognito to "toughen up" Martin is, in itself, a dereliction of duty by the coaching staff.  If Martin needs to be toughened up, that is what coaches are there for.  Why are they pushing their own responsibilities off on players?

So now the NFL is equivalent to school? I think we started this conversation days ago by saying it's not.  In fact, how do you police all the guys on the field who bully, threaten or actually commit assault and battery during the games? Need to create tons of more lawyers.

As I already pointed out, the rulebook clearly spells out what is and is not allowed in game; e.g. NFL players agree to allowing another man to throw them to the ground during the game when they sign their contracts.

As far as verbal bullying goes, how is what players say on the field any less actionable than what someone says to another person at a bar?  You cannot take legal action in either case based on racial slurs (or what have you).  Furthermore, if you assault a player on the field of play outside of the rules of the game (e.g. Marty McSorley & Donald Brashear) you can most certainly face criminal and civil charges.

I can take legal action if someone from another dept in the county keeps calling me names or threatens to "kill" me or rip off my nut sack and my supervisor does nothing to stop it. I can immediately file charges if they punch me. Not so on a football field.

What, exactly, do you think is happening right now with the Dolphins?

What makes you think that a player cannot file charges if another player punches him?  Most players choose not to.

Even if that is true.  And even if there is some spin going on -- I expect Ireland is gone.

Here is why I say that.

Pretty obvious Martin's agent and Ireland had a conversation.  Also pretty obvious that Martin's agent wasn't satisfied with the outcome. 

Put yourself in the agents position: who do you call next?  Ans. Ross.

What happen's next? Two things: (1) Dolphin's ask the NFL to investigate, (2) Richie suspended by the Dolphin's.

So who from the Dolphin's contacted the NFL, who suspended Richie.

Sure as hell wasn't Ireland.  It was Ross.  Once Martin's agent told Ross how Ireland was handling the situation, Ross handled it differently.

And why would Ross ask the NFL to investigate?  Kraft didn't ask for the camaragate investigation.  The Saints owner didn't request the Bountygate investigation. 

Ross asked the NFL to get involved because he doesn't trust Ireland & Philban to handle this.     

I am not sure if we resolved the issue of whether the NFL locker room has a right to ignore the laws of society or not. 


Actually we have guys who enforce that. They are the ones dressed in black and white stripes.  If you punch someone on the field you get ejected from the game and then fined and sometimes suspended.

Enforcing a rule and enforcing the law is the same thing now? Cool ... penalize the Dolphins 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct, bring Incognito back and let's play ball.

What laws are you claiming are being broken ON the field?

A QB can't sue a DE for sacking on a theory of assault and battery, b/c by playing the game he has consent to the violence of the game.

But for the prohibition in the CBA Evan Dietrich-Smith could sue Suh for the stomping.  However, the CBA has an a specific exemption.   And at other levels of sports athletes have sued and won against athletes who crossed the bounds from simply unsportsmanlike to violence.  The CBA has a specific exemption if that means that Tom Brady could not sue Wake, if before the game Wake says, "I am going to sack you so often they are to wheel you off the field."  (Although if a ref hears it, it might be a taunting penalty)

However, if the night before the game Wake calls Brady on the phone and says, "Tom, I know where you live, I know where your kids go to school and if the Patriots win  tomorrow my gang will have them eliminated."  Then 1) Wake could be charged with a crime and  2) Brady could sue him.  The CBA does not protect such behavior.

 
 







 

Different types of scenarios. These investigations arose from complaints from other teams in regards to actions involving game play. The accusations arose from outside their organizations. The NFL was already onto this before either of these teams knew it.

The Dolphins situation has nothing to do with game play or other teams. The accusations arose within the organization itself. The Dolphins knew of this before or at least at the same time the league did.

Yes, there are differences. 

But not long after the coach said, "IF there is a bullying problem I will find it and fix it"  The "team" asked the NFL to investigate.  Ross could have said, "I trust Ireland and and Philban to get to the bottom of this"  Rather instead he has publicly thanked Godell for sending an independent investigator.  Ireland and Philiban by all appearances want Incognito back and don't take Martin's allegation all that seriously.  Yet someone with more power than them has suspended Incognito.  The only person who could do that is Ross.

If you are the GM of a football team and the owner has taken the responsibility of making decision for the team away from you, than the writing is on the wall that you aren't going to be the GM for much longer.

No matter how this shakes out in the end, right now Ireland is the GM in name only, and the interim GM knows more about real estate than he does football.

Also I suspect just like there is a chasm between posters on this board about what is acceptable in an NFL workplace, it exists between Ireland/Philban and Ross.  Ireland and Philban have spent their entire lives in and around locker rooms.  Ross is from the corporate world where the worst of the hazing is having the new guy clean the coffee pot.  And he sees the world thru that lens.

Ross has hundreds if not thousands of HR people who report to him.  Only one of them has ever told an employee to punch another employee.  That same HR director is the only one who has ever asked a job applicant during an interview if his mother was whore.  He might be the only HR director to call a customer an "asshole" I doubt this is  the type of behavior the Chairman of The Related Companies, L.P. expects from an HR director.