The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

With the latest information (texts from Martin, player comments, Incognito interview), the "black and white" case of bullying is no longer so clear. 

Maybe Incognito is the bad guy, maybe not.  Given there is now some level of uncertainty, is it right to suspend Incognito before the investigation is complete?  Should Incognito be reinstated?

He's not out of the woods yet. If he is cleared, he should be reinstated with back pay.

Has there actually been "latest information," or have we just had more "latest opinions," "latest conjectures" and "latest he said/he said?"

^^ If you're making that distinction, then there is NO information whatsoever on this case thus far.

His days with the Dolphins are over. It goes beyond the Martin incident. He gives the franchise a bad name and nobody believes the fact that he has "changed his ways" in recent years. Sorta like when Ross said if he couldn't trade Brandon Marshall he was just going to release him cause he didn't want Brandon and his off the field antics/arrests associated with his team any longer. Same here, even if Richie gets cleared in this Martin thing, the organization just doesn't want him around anymore. Ross is said to be upset over this whole thing so there is no way Richie is coming back to the field for the Fins.

The money issue will work itself out, I don't think Miami will want to fight over money and keep this story in the headlines. If paying him back pay or whatever makes this go away they just will cut the check.

MikeO, Marshall's situation was different.  The (current) coaching staff actually likes Incognito, as evidenced by their decision to go to him with the Code Red.  Cutting Incognito after instructing him to toughen up Martin would not go over well with players, current and prospective.

Of course, this ownership/front office does not appear to give a damn about their reputation in the league, so there is that.

Oh please you don't know that this took place with the "code red". Until that's a fact or comes out in the Wells investigation that is just making stuff up and passing it off as a fact to back up an argument.

The situation is different of course, but the ultimate conclusion may very well be that the Fins (or better yet the owner) won't want to be associated with a player any longer due to his actions OFF THE FIELD

We don't know if the Code Aqua took place.  We also don't knowif it didn't take place.  Like I said in another thread, the texts from Martin don't totally exonerate Incognito.  We still don't know about the Code Aqua and there's also the matter of his off field incidents and then the team having him talk about civilized behavior.

He should be reinstated if this comes out as just boys being boys which most of the reports seem to be leading to currently.

exactly so acting like it happened and believing it as fact is incorrect. Thats my point

Two things wrong with your statement:

1) Texts from Martin do completely exonerate Incognito.  Absolutely.  Shows that it wasn't one-sided as originally portrayed and that Martin himself participated in the activities he is supposedly complaining about.

2) Off the field incidents don't mean a damn thing regarding this particular case.  They are intended to damage Incognito's character.  They are completely irrelevant to the facts of the case.

Virtually none of this stuff is directly sourced (except for the agent saying that he talked to Ireland), so I'm not sure why you accept other reports as factual enough but not the Code Red report.

Incognito did prove 1,142 texts to Glazer so that is hard evidence right there. No source, Glazer has the actually texts

These things are not mutually exclusive and certainly do not exonerate Incognito. There are degrees of maliciousness involved here. It's not as black and white as you're making it. If it were, there would be no going forward with the investigation at this point. -EK

It surprises me that a player can be suspended so easily by the team.  If the league suspends you for behavior, drugs or rules violations, the players union can usually keep the player on the field until appeals are heard.  

Given this system in the NFL, the current suspension seems unfair to Incognito.  Is there a difference between the team suspending you and the league suspending you?  Where is the NFLPA on this?

They had to suspend him pending an investigation just to appear non biased. If the investigation shows that a suspension wasn't warranted he can be reinstated and probably wouldn't lose any pay. When I saw Incognito right after the suspension he didn't appear to be that angry about it. My guess is that he was told that this was a formality at this point and that if he was exonerated, he would be reinstated with full pay. Incognito is handling this terrifically. I'd reinstate him without thinking twice. As more of this comes out, I think Miami would take more of a beating if they don't reinstate him then if they do. He's still a damn fine offensive lineman and we all know that Miami is in need of those.

I agree with you Pappy, but it doesn't answer my question about HOW the team is able to suspend him without an appeals process. 

Well, maybe it does.  If you are saying that Incognito didn't challenge the suspension because he knows he will get paid anyway.  I have a hard time believing that.  I think he was upset and embarrassed by the suspension and would rather be playing for his money and reputation. 

I'm curious if teams have the power to suspend players for "conduct detrimental to the team" without an appeals process.   

@Pappy, so you really think they'll take a beating for not reinstating him given the sexual assault that came out during this, the meetings in strip clubs, and his past history? Honest question. -EK

None of that mattered before this. Why should it matter now? He'll probably be the fall guy even though Martin participated in the events leading up to this. In my opinion, he was chosen and accused of being the bully due to his history. Not necessarily because he was doing anything that countless others on the team weren't doing at the same time, including Martin.

It absolutely mattered, which is why it was fairly well covered up until now. Fans, management, and the media don't particularly care for below average players who sexually assault women. -EK

The incident with the girl at the golf course was NOT covered up. The league and the Dolphins organization knew about it. The girl involved just wanted an apology and didn't press charges. The police marked the incident as "CLEAR".....while his actions were gross and not professional, the matter was known by all the necessary parties and the "victim" didn't feel the need to press charges. Therefore, issue over!

The strip club meetings, once again....if nobody involved objected who the hell cares? And if someone objected but didn't speak up, once again that's on them.  Rich, young, NFL players go to strip clubs, not exactly breaking news.

Once it's all said and done? Yeah I think that and a lot of that thought process has to do with Incognito being a pro-bowler...and Martin isn't. Richie has already admitted to doing a lot of bad things and a lot of people have already made up their minds about him even before any of this happened. You're not gonna change the minds of those people, they'll always dislike him, but if he plays well for the Dolphins, well he's just another bad dude playing a violent game. Got tons of those in the NFL. People have accepted back Michael Vick. Why? Because he paid his dues and he can play. Sure the voice of reason comes out every time some bad boy gets caught doing something bad, but 3 months later the fans forget when he's helping their team win. Yes, I am that cynical because I've found it to be the truth.

Watching the mouthpieces trying to make a big deal of this last night was laughable.....I mean holy shit dudes with money went to a strip club, Stop the press!!!!!!  ::)

Disagree with that.  In an NFL culture that demands that players "go along" or are labeled a "pussy", "not a good team mate", "weak" etc.  You can't put the onus on rookies to stand up to the team captain if they don't want to go. 

Philban on the other hand had an obligation to demand that meeting be held in the meeting room.

If a bunch of players want to go a strip club...that is fine.  But calling it a meeting an have an expectation of attendance is not.

Although I see this more as a sign of lack of leadership from Ireland/Philban/the rest of the coaching staff, than Richie.

If my boss held a meeting at a strip club, it would the last thing he did before being fired.   

This is exactly my point. It wasn't a gathering or off-time friendly round of beers. An official meeting of the Oline should be held at the facility somewhere. There's 20+ other hours in the day after the meeting to go to a strip club. Holding a team function there is inappropriate. -EK

Since when did one Olineman calling a "meeting" at a strip club become official? Everyone knows that those things equated to little more than a meeting of the Volunteer Fire Dept. in Bedrock.

If Martin (or anything other player) was made to feel that he was obligated to attend the strip club then this is bullying/hazing. 

This isn't about Incognito.  It's about a lack of leadership in the clubhouse.  Your leaders are meatheads.  I'm not going to make a big deal about the strip club thing, because I don't really care.  ...but do you think that Peyton Manning is calling a team meeting at the strip club?  Tom Brady?  It's just a dumb thing and shows you're not serious about the job you're doing.  These guys are treating it like it's a joke and a playground for grown children.  It's no wonder that we suck so bad for so long.  We don't have guys that take their job seriously and we have a locker-room full of dolts, meatheads, divas, and criminals.

Get rid of these losers, build up a team of people who are serious about working hard, team support, discipline, etc.

exactly!! I don't think Jim Turner is calling o-line meetings at strip clubs. If the guys get together on their own its not an official "meeting"

Peer pressure is more like I expect. You guys are talking about bosses having meetings, it needed to be at the facility, I'm saying it was a "meeting" and you guys seem to think it was a meeting.

Peer pressure implies peers.  If one guy is a team captain and another is rookie, it isn't peer pressure. 

I pretty sure Incognito wasn't a "Captain" (I guess leadership council is our correct term for the Dolphins) last year and Martin was not a rookie this year.

Absolutely. So why was he still being hazed AT ALL? -EK

This goes beyond Marin/Incognito.  Thomas is a rookie and on your Oline, he should never  to be put in the situation of needing the challenge the location of the meeting.  Employment meetings should not be held in strip clubs.  

Philban should have never allowed this.  

exactly and Martin has to back up he was being "hazed" and all of his claims.

Like I said previously it is equal to the Bedrock Volunteer Fire Dept. If you think in any way this was an employment meeting I expect you are misguided.

Let's see, I've heard evidence of a single prank that Martin himself played on another vet the week prior and a voice mail that sounds over the top but had text responses of a similar nature. A pre-planned trip that he backed out on after paying his money. I'm going to have to see more before I call it hazing.

The rest of the non-Phin fan world would disagree with you. Maybe you missed the past week's worth of news? -EK

^^^Nice try. I saw the news, that's how I know about Martin sending messages back. Maybe you missed it.

Also, the non-Dolphan world I have spoken with (real world people not trolling a fan site for reactions) have all said they feel Martin wanted out of football and is making excuses.

lol...real world people not trolling a fan site....I like it!!

If you want to believe that, that's fine. Whatever makes you sleep at night. If what you're saying is true, though, why is there a story at all? If there's nothing at all to substantiate this, and Martin is just a nutball, why did the story get this far at all? Surely some one would have found that there was nothing to it. *Shrug* guess all the Dolphin fans are right and everyone else is wrong. -EK

I don't know why did the 2 or 3 guys who made up the story about Bernie Fine at Syracuse University molesting them get so far. Why was the Olympic Park Bomber found guilty in the court of pulbic opinino before the truth came out and he was found 100% innocent. Stories snowball and get media attention. World we live in

He should be reinstated.  He's not going to be, but he should be reinstated.  Really Martin should too if he wants, but the reality of the situation is that neither guy is going to be back, and I wouldn't be surprised if neither of them ever plays another down in the NFL.