The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

All that money could have been better spent on the oline

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There are definitely positives to signing the best DT in the league, but he hasn't shown them so far. Hopefully, something clicks and he becomes the player he has been because he will be here for a LONG time. If he is a bust, it cripples the franchise.

Let's be honest, the other dlinemen around him we might have overrated.  Mitchell is a nice player, run of the mill. A total JAG
Wake is past his prime
Vernon is nice, but not elite by any means
And the back-ups are just that back-ups nothing special. Just nice players.

Might have? No, you absolutely did. Not just you, just about everyone. I was one of the few saying tap that brakes on that till they play a couple games and after 2 games, it's not tap the brakes it's steer the damn thing out of the ditch. Remember Suh was going to make all of them better? Well none of them are better so far and Suh himself hasn't been anything special. Suh and Wake were talking about having the best defensive line in the league. That's a laugh. Be nice to have the best defensive line in the game at this point because the defensive line is 0-2 in that regard. Remember how they were gonna make the offensive line better? Not so much. Everyone VASTLY overated the defense. It's been horrible so far, in fact there's no where to go but up because they are bottom of the league at this point.

Wake played like 1 quarter today, tough to rip him. He was injured

He played plenty the last half of last year and did nothing. I can rip his ass all I want.

You can, doesn't mean you are correct

He has one maybe two plays a game where he actually makes a difference and disappears the rest of the game. Everyone cut him slack last year because he didn't have a dominant tackle next to him, but now that he's got one he's still missing in action for 5 quarters this year. I'm tired of making excuses for him. 2 tackles and 1/2 sack a game is not getting it done.

Going back to last season it does appear Wake's best days are behind him. I'm completely baffled by Suh's performance to this point. It's not like he is losing these battles to pro-bowlers. He's losing 1v1 to kids who haven't ever done anything. I know emotion is a big part of sports. I've seen the best athletes completely fail at the biggest times against people they normally dominate because they literally over-psyched themselves before performing and then didn't have their normal energy and mindset come game time.  I hope this is all this is.

Is that true?  Every time I saw him, he was double teamed.  I could have missed his 1v1 matchups though.

The announcers even mentioned during the game that Suh was not getting double teamed and that he usually is.

Mentioned it and showed replays of it.

I was at a sports bar and the sound was of the PHI/DAL game, so I missed that.

It's about to hit the fan in Miami.   Wake played 15 snaps (and the team said he wasn't injured.) Fede played 43 snaps and Shelby 42 snaps!

Per the Miami Herald:
 The Dolphins said Wake was not injured Sunday and Wake said afterward that any questions about his lack of playing time should be directed to the coach.

Can the players rise up and get Coyle and Philbin fired? How nice would that be.

They can but it might mean sitting through a season of 2-5 wins.

I would much rather have 2 wins than 8 wins. 2 wins means change is coming about. 8 wins means they maintain the status quo and just tweak things.

Don't worry, if Miami doesn't make the playoffs AND win a playoff game this year, Philbin will be fired.

I don't have an issue with Wake sitting. The D-line got better when the second team came in against Washington. These guys obviously need something to get motivated as they have been getting bitch slapped by everyone they face. Reputation doesn't win games.   

Edited to say Philbin just reiterated that Wake was hurt.

Omar Kelly ‏@OmarKelly  3h3 hours ago
Joe Philbin said Cam Wake didn't play in the second half because of the hamstring issue, which is impacting his performance.

Saw this this morning and thought of you. It's a perfect example of Suh getting killed on a 1v1 and them making a big play.

https://instagram.com/p/77t1QYhZhvppZBJkzyVZV5GUOaKm10wH9yFFY0/

One of the best questions I've seen raised is that maybe the caliber of guards he is completing against in practice isn't getting him ready to compete on Sunday? It really doesn't help him if he can coast in practice and still be dominant.

Suh started out the same last season for the first two games, and then came alive.

Also, we can't really judge Suh on sacks.  That position, in general, doesn't get a lot like defensive ends do.  It's more pressures and disruption.  It won't be as easily measurable as some of you might like.
 

This exactly.  Wilfork's most sacks in a season is only 3.5, but people still considered him an all-pro because of the disruptions he'd cause.  Same thing with Suh.

No one here is even mentioning sacks except for people sticking up for Suh. I'd settle for seeing him do anything. He isn't making tackles, he isn't getting pressure, he isn't freeing the linebackers. Just do something.

^ Yeah, totally.  I was just saying that Suh's ineffectiveness and the "we only have 1 sack in two games" get brought up together, but they are necessarily the same problem.

True, but many of the sacks that NEP DEs got was because of the disruptions that Wilfork caused in the middle.  Suh doesn't have to sack the QB to be effective, if the QB is sacked b/c Suh was double teamed and pushing the QB out of the pocket allowing someone else to sack him he would be an effective tackle. That is not happening. 

This is exactly what I said...

With Suh (and any other players) to determine how good he is you need to look at both the positive and the negative.

Yes, in Detroit he was a disruptive force in the middle.  He can sack the QB and tackle runners behind the LOS. 

But when you take all the positive he did and subtract things like, giving the the opposing team a first down and 15 yards for penalties his overall effectiveness drops to merely being an average player.

If you tackle runner on first and 10 2 yards behind the LOS but then after the ball is dead you get a 15 yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct, you hurt rather than helped your team.   

He hasn't had a personal foul penalty in 3 games with the Dolphins, so until he gets one with the Fins its a non issue

So how many personal foul penalties are you saying that Suh collected in his 5 years with DET?  Must be an awful lot to drop him down to "average."

All of Suh's penalties with Detroit, and only 6 personal fouls in his career.  Yup, definitely drops him down to "average"  ::)

2010   2010-09-19      @      1      2   5   PHI 25   0   0   Encroachment   4   
2010   2010-09-26            2      1   10   MIN 46   7   7   Roughing the Passer   15   
2010   2010-10-17            2      2   20   NYG 19   7   7   Illegal Use of Hands   5   
2010   2010-11-07      @      5      3   6   DET 12   23   20   Leverage      D
2010   2010-11-14            1      1   10   DET 46   0   0   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2010   2010-11-21            1      1   10   DAL 45   0   0   Defensive Offside   5   
2010   2010-11-21            4      2   13   DET 13   21   19   Horse Collar Tackle   6   
2010   2010-11-25      @      4               45   24   Unnecessary Roughness   15   
2010   2010-12-05      @      4      1   10   DET 22   17   20   Unnecessary Roughness   7   
2010   2010-12-12      @      1      2   3   GNB 27   0   0   Illegal Block Above the   10   
2010   2010-12-26            4      2   6   MIA 12   27   34   Face Mask (15 Yards)   15   
2011   2011-09-11            2      3   2   DET 26   10   20   Unsportsmanlike Conduct   13   
2011   2011-10-02            3      3   3   DAL 39   27   17   Roughing the Passer   15   
2011   2011-10-10      @      1      1   10   CHI 34   0   0   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2011   2011-10-23      @      1      1   10   ATL 23   0   3   Face Mask (15 Yards)   15   
2011   2011-11-20      @      3      1   10   CAR 20   27   21   Illegal Use of Hands   5   
2011   2011-11-24      @      3      3   3   DET 3   7   0   Disqualification   2   
2011   2011-12-18            3      2   1   RAI 17   17   14   Defensive Offside   5   
2011   2012-01-01            4      3   3   GNB 43   38   41   Encroachment   5   
2012   2012-09-16            2      1   10   DET 44   14   6   Encroachment   5   
2012   2012-12-09            3      3   6   GNB 41   10   14   Roughing the Passer   15   
2012   2012-12-22      @      1      2   11   ATL 46   0   0   Encroachment   5   
2013   2013-09-08      @      2      2   1   MIN 29   7   6   Low Block   15   
2013   2013-10-06            1      3   7   GNB 34   0   0   Tripping   10   
2013   2013-10-13            3      2   10   CLE 20   17   14   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2013   2013-10-13            2      1   4   DET 4   7   7   Defensive Offside   2   
2013   2013-10-27      @      2      3   7   DET 40   0   7   Neutral Zone Infraction   5   
2013   2013-12-08            4      2   10   DET 40   12   14   Defensive Holding   1   
2013   2013-12-29            2      3   6   MIN 20   7   0   Encroachment   5   
2014   2014-09-14            2      1   10   CAR 39   3   0   Illegal Use of Hands      D
2014   2014-09-28            2      1   10   NYJ 7   3   10   Defensive Offside   5   
2014   2014-10-19      @      1      1   10   NOR 17   0   0   Defensive Offside   5   
2014   2014-11-09      @      2      3   3   DET 24   0   10   Face Mask (15 Yards)   10   
2014   2014-11-23            2      1   6   DET 6   7   6   Encroachment   3   
2014   2014-12-07      @      2      2   13   TAM 33   3   17   Roughing the Passer   9   
2014   2014-12-14      @      1      1   10   MIN 10   0   0   Defensive Offside   5   
2014   2014-12-28            4      2   10   DET 30   21   14   Defensive Offside   5   
35 Accepted Penalties   262   

Not sure how you came up with only 6, Roughing the Passer,  Illegal Use of Hands, Unnecessary Roughness, Face Mask are all bonehead plays. 

35 accepted penalties on 36 sacks. So one more play where he had the best outcome than the worst. 

Because I just skimmed it...fine I see 10 instead of 6 then...you're acting like he has a personal foul multiple times a game which cancels out his great play.  It doesn't, they don't happen frequently enough.

Thanks Tenshot. Can you give a rundown on the numbers on each line item? There is a group of three numbers, team name, three more numbers, what the penalty was, and a number. Looks like the very last number is the number of yards penalized.

What are the others?

So by your logic, Vince Wilfork is the worst player in the NFL.  33 accepted penalties to 16 career sacks.  So 17 more plays where he had the WORST outcome than the BEST.

You can't judge a DT on sacks and you know this, so I don't know why you're using it as a base for your ludicrous argument.

Pro-Football-Reference.com doesn't have headers on their columns.

Here's a link to Vince Wilfork's career penalties, since it was the last one I looked up.  You might be able to judge from that.


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilfVi20/penalties/ (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilfVi20/penalties/)

It doesn't make sense to judge Suh's position with sacks.  It's not a position that normally gets sacks.

The problem is if you tie that much money up in him, you can't use it to get good enough players to complement him.

Thanks again. My best guess then is

the Quarter (I assume the 5 is for overtime)
down and distance
ball position (after the team name)
and the score at the time

Wrong.  For years Miami has been signing average complimentary players; at some point you need to step up and sign some studs to lead the team.  Miami chose Suh for the defense.  I certainly wasn't a fan of his given the couple incidents he had, but you can't judge his signing as a bust after only three games.

Suh isn't the problem. Suh is setting the table the linebackers are doing nothing behind him. Suh can move the guys out of the way if the linebackers don't make plays....can't blame Suh.

Sheppard is worthless as as MLB

NFL Network had a brilliant piece on Suh and the Fins defense. Through 3 games Suh is doing exactly what they paid him to do. Eatting up Double and Triple teams and in many circumstances winning vs the double teams. They had endless examples and video proof. The point they raised is Wake and Vernon are doing absolutely nothing at all this year through 3 games when they should be dominating with the way Suh is playing and what he is doing. And they showed video of Wake/Vernon getting abused by marginal plaeyrs

I wish I had seen that. I'm curious how many examples there were and from what games. I admit the last game I was not watching him closely because I had given up because the team had as well but I distinctly remember watching him being taken on by single blockers and the announcers pointing it out in the second game.

There are many examples of him losing 1v1s and i even posted one. I agree the other guys haven't stepped up but Suh is not playing like Suh of the past either. Our whole defensive line has been a disappointment.

Yes there are some examples but if you saw the NFL Network piece the good has far outweighed the bad so far through 3 games and he is playing like the Suh of old, just he has zero support around him from the DE's and linebackers

This I will not disagree with