The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

This is gambling.  Pure and simple.

And this scandal shows that it needs to be regulated.  There is an unfair advantage to having more information than the public and using that to fleece the userbase.

I hope this doesn't wipe out the premise, but instead brings it into legitimacy.

You will see the government jump in and be all over this. It's an easy score for them and probably 1 thing the 2 parties can agree on.

ESPN is already distancing themselves from both companies. The sports leagues will begin to distance themselves from them. It won't kill this industry but they won't be as main stream going forward.

IMO - employees of either company shouldn't be allowed to participate.  That avoids crap like this.  Of course it doesn't prevent them from telling their brother, cousin, or grandmother to pick whoever players.

If they made that information available to everyone, there would be no problems also.  But, I think that undermines the spirit of the game.

I think they should offer that as a variation for some of the big (thousands of entrants) contests. Next to each player, have it not only show their price, but a running tally on what percentage of the entries have that player rostered. That definitely would motivate people to use a wider range of different players...

They do give out that information AFTER the games are played.  I think it goes against the spirit of the game because, in all, the game is about finding the Joseph Randles and Devonta Freeman's - the low-cost guys that will blow up.  If they showed the percentages, it levels the playing field between those with their eyes open and those without.

How can you possibly know how good a player is going to do unless you have ESP lol

I don't know, how can you possibly know how good a stock will do on the stock market?  ::)

It's insider trading using insider information. It needs to be regulated and nobody in their right mind will trust these companies to regulate themselves.

I understand the story long and short is you were always expected to lose money overall, but there was small chance of hitting it very big, with the insiders you will never hit a large jackpot

^^^ not the point of this thread, there is another thread for this conversation.  However, you're still wrong.  To say "you'll never win" is false.  They have aggregate data based on predictions, not based on facts.  You can of course still win.  That guy has probably been playing for 2 years using that data and hit one time.  You mean to tell me that every week people win thousands and all of them are employees?  Doubtful.

no that is not what I am saying, but these guys are taking  disproportionate amount of the winning pool, leaving less for the non inside winners, in a game that already takes a big cut.

I can't speak for FanDuel, but Draft Kings appears to take 25% and pay out 75% of the "entry fees."  Considering they pay out 10 million + per week, it suggests these sites are making 3 million or so dollars every week.  Thanks to degenerate football-aholics like me.

great article to read up on this some more. Here is the most telling part below
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/millionaire-sports-gambler-explains-why-180100740.html

"The real issue is, that I think people don't realize, is the fact that the person who is tuning in and seeing these commercials, and signing up to play in these multi-tournaments, where the winner gets a million dollars, I think if they knew that they were going to enter maybe three, or four, or five entries, but a pro is going to enter 1,000 entries, they wouldn't think it was that exciting to enter these contests. I think that's the part where there is some impropriety.

If the actual casual viewer, watching these commercials and signing up, knew they weren't competing against other like-minded people like themselves, that they're competing against professionals who have algorithms and thousands and thousands of entries in all these tournaments, they would realize that their chances of winning are really not that good and it's really not as exciting as they think it is ... the pros are winning all the money and they are also entering all the contests.

It's a giant partnership between the pros and the sites, and the unsuspecting customers who are doing this for entertainment are literally getting fleeced."

I read that article yesterday and it was a pretty good read. Since we have two guys playing, I'm curious if they even considered there were guys out there making that many entries. It was something I had thought about but I am an immediate skeptic usually and this was a main reason I didn't want to invest any money in the game.

I thought there was a cap on the number of entries you could have in any given contest?

Same with me. Really the reason I have avoided playing. HBO Real Sports did a piece on this last year too that gave me reservations about playing.

I never considered it, nor do I care.  I put in $25 dollars.  I'm doing $1 and $2 tournaments with 100k+ people.  If I'm in the money, great.  If not, it's still fun.  There are worse stuff you can waste your money on.

^^ exactly.  I'm not playing for million dollar prizes here.  I play the leagues where they pay out 100k places.  I've won money every week I've played.  I'm looking to win $5-10 each week - maybe I get lucky and win more, maybe I don't.  Most of all, its fun and keeps my interest.

At the end of the day, as with any casino or anything else - never play with more than you're willing to lose.  I won $40 the first week and I've been playing with their money since then.  I don't care if I have no shot at a million bucks, but if I can place 20,000th and win $100, I'm freakin thrilled.

Even if the games were completely above board, the house taking 25% is much worse than a straight bet ona team or what you would get playing almost all casino games.

Do this instead, find other like minded people (eg your regular ff league) play the same game but instead of sending to fd or dk, winner take 60, 2nd 30, 3rd 10.

Florida residents will soon be joining other states residents that can't play this.

Link?

I have trouble doing links on my tablet, but pft had a story about a fla grand jury.

Basically Florida's law is very loosely written and daily fantasy is being investigated as already being illegal in the state.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/10/10/report-florida-grand-jury-investigating-daily-fantasy-operators/

http://www.syracuse.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/10/fantasy_sports_sites_shut_down_nevada_draftkings_fanduel.html#incart_river_home

They are out of Nevada for the time being now.

The Daily Show did a pretty interesting piece about this scandal and how it's very similar to the stock market and why it needs regulation.

They interviewed a guy who has 400+ leagues a day run with complicated algorithms and has won something like $150K over the last two years.

The only reason Nevada banned them (which really they didn't) is because they want a piece of the action.  They require them to get a gambling license.  The state that runs more online sports books than any other banned Draft Kings and Fan Duel.  Interesting.  Its all about money.

Its sad to me that these sites are so under the microscope.  If they go away, that's fine, but I'll be sad.  Its fun, and I wholeheartedly disagree that the outcomes are random.  I challenge anyone to get their mom to sign up and see how she does.  My mom would come in last freakin' place.  Odds of winning are not the same for everyone.  It isn't a game of chance.

^ You're right, the odds aren't in everyone's favor.  You can use computers and inside information to tip the scales to where the average Joe just playing with his regular knowledge can't possibly compete on a level playing field.

There's a reason that gambling has regulations, Brian.  Casinos are under high levels or scrutiny.  They can't just do whatever they want.  People would get scammed out of all their money without recourse.

It's gambling.  Completely random like playing picking squares for the superbowl? - no. 

But no significantly different than playing a pool where you pick which team will win every game for the week and the person who gets the most right wins. 

Fantasy sports is gambling!  That it requires some skill doesn't change that. Poker requires skill and that is gambling.  And while I don't have a problem with legal gambling it must be regulated to prevent abuse.   

I doubt your mom would win a poker tournament, but that's still classified as "gambling."

I don't think my post ever said "I don't consider it to be 'gambling'"  But gambling isn't always the same.  If you join a 50/50 raffle or enter in a contest to win a cruise - is that gambling?  Sure it is.  But who cares?  No one is telling the 8th graders at Horizon Middle School that they must be regulated to sell raffle tickets.  Because they aren't making millions a week in profit. 

Its always about people with their hands out wanting a piece of the money.  I never said I was against regulation, but don't think that Nevada's recent action has anything to do with "right and wrong."

I don't know about Florida,  but in Massachusetts if the middle school pta wants to hold a 50 50 raffle they must file paperwork with the state for it to be legal. 

Their whole defense is it is skill and not gambling.

Any time you risk money in a game with a chance to win more if you win that game, you are gambling.   No other way to spin it.

Congress already passed an anti-gambling bill in which fantasy sports are explicitly defined as a game of skill.  That bill did not address daily fantasy sports, so the DFS sites are proceeding under the assumption that fantasy and daily fantasy are necessarily the same thing.

 Congress passed a bill prohibitting most online gambling but not including fantasy sports.  Nothing in the federal bill prevents the states from more restive  prohibitions.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/10/30/pierre-garcon-files-class-action-against-fanduel/

Now a player is suing FanDuel in a class action lawsuit

This part is interesting:

DraftKings presumably was not sued because it has struck an advertising deal with the NFL Players Association, allowing DraftKings to use player images and names. The next question becomes whether the lawsuit was in any way instigated by DraftKings or the NFLPA, as part of an effort to help DraftKings prevail in the cola war that has been unfolding between the two primary DFS companies.

Shady business...

OK, so if it's a game of skill, then it's not gambling?  How does that make any sense?  If you and I sat down to play a game of, say chess, and we agree that the loser has to pay the winner $100, how is that not gambling?

If you're wagering money, you're gambling.

Colloquially, yes.  But legally, perhaps not.  That's the point.  Is a winner of a skill tournament gambling if the tournament has an entry fee?  What about the stock market?

If you ask me, it's all gambling.   But it's important to draw distinctions for proper regulations.

Because your compensation is tied to your own performance, which is directly under your control.  That isn't "gambling;" that's work.

For example: commissioned sales are not considered "gambling," yet you could argue that they are tied just as much to factors out of your control (i.e. whether or not customers decide to buy) as a competition with a cash prize.  Additionally, consider that athletes receive increased compensation based on their own performance.  Is a Pro Bowl incentive in Tannehill's contract "gambling"?  Of course not; he has to earn that reward.

Traditionally, the distinction between "gambling" and "earned income" is whether or not it is based on random chance (read: luck).  That's why "contests of skill" are not considered gambling under the law.

Commission sales people don't pay an ante.  Bad example.  Try to distinguish the difference between DF and Texas holdem

Yeah, that was definitely a bad example.



Oops...so is this. The cards you are dealt in Texas Hold'em are at random, while you select the players in DFS based on your knowledge of their talent and situational factors.

The NYS Attorney General has ruled that Draft Kings & Fan Duel are not games of skill, but rather illegal gambling, so it's out for NY.

I pay $50 to enter a bodybuilding competition, where the winner gets $10,000 and a lifetime supply of Muscle Milk.

Is that gambling?

If by "ante" you mean entry fee, I'm pretty sure that there are commissioned sales jobs that require some sort of startup fee (if only for some arbitrary "pre-certification").

Furthermore, there are hundreds of professional competitions (with entry fees) that pay out different rewards based on results.  So you tell me: how is the PGA Tour different than the WSOP?

But ultimately, the distinction of what is "gambling" and what is a "game of skill" almost entirely an arbitrary decision by government officials.  Congress declared fantasy sports a "game of skill;" meanwhile, state law enforcement is rapidly declaring DFS "gambling."  Is there really any meaningful difference between the two?

OH OH, I KNOW THIS ONE!

One is Golf and one is Poker.

Glad I could drop some knowledge.

I think the reasoning is less arbitrary than is being let on. I don't know anyone playing season long fantasy sports under the enticement of millions of dollar payouts while it is regularly advertised as enticement for dfs.

^^ so the AMOUNT of money possible to win is what defines "gambling" or "competition"?

If so, then where is the line of demarkation?

It is like pornography,  I know it when I see it.  Fantasy sports is gambling.   I don't care if it is legal or not, but if it is going to be legal it should be regulated like gambling.

To me, gambling is a game of chance.  Sure, with fantasy sports, there is chance involved because random things happen in this world.  But, at the same time, the outcome of football games isn't totally random.  In Vegas, they created a system (the spread) to make choosing the outcome of football games closer to a 50/50 chance.  There is nothing like that in fantasy football.  You must have a working knowledge of players and teams to be successful.

Its no more gambling than entering a video game tournament is gambling when there is a big cash prize.

Not one to say I told ya so, but I told ya so! NY State started it and other states will follow. Easy score for the government to stop this. And ESPN and the leagues are starting to distance themselves already and curtailing some of the advertising they take from these companies.

The first domino has fallen. Illinois and Florida are about to also drop the hammer per reports and follow NY's lead.

right cause heaven forbid someone should make money by providing something fun for millions of people to enjoy without the government getting a cut.

::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I don't agree with that analogy, either.  In a video game tournament, your performance is tied to how well you personally play.

If fantasy sports are a "game of skill" because you have to have a knowledge of the players and teams, wouldn't betting on point spreads also be a "game of skill"?  Bettors with a superior knowledge of players and teams have an advantage there, too.

What about betting on horse racing?

Your stance is silly Brian.  These daily fantasy leagues needs to be regulated the same way the stock market is regulated and why insider trading is illegal.

Hookers could spread STD's
Drugs could get innocent people killed with DUI

What is the harm of fantasy games?  Someone might win a few bucks?

Bad analogy.

The spread is in place to make it more of a 50/50 shot - a game of chance.  Meanwhile, betting the spread is legal in Vegas.  Horse racing is LEGAL in lots of places.  But playing fantasy football is evil?  Not sure where you're going with this.

That's where this will end up eventually. These Daily Fantasy Leagues will end up being regulated similar to the way horse racing is via the states. It's parimutuel gambling/betting at the end of the day, that's all it is

What's the harm with insider trading on the stock market? That's all this is. Preventing insider trading!

Not claiming FF is evil.   Horse Racing is a good analogy where it is legal it is regulated to keep it fair.  I don't have a problem with FF.  When it is a sum zero game among friends such as yjff regulation is not needed.   But when corporate it needs to be overseen by gaming commission.

That's funny because the headline I read didn't say "Judge declares daily fantasy sports regulated in New York"

It didn't say anything about a judge either. Settle down, this thing is still playing out.

Jeez Brian, you can't see how this will play out. Now these draft website will hire an army of lawyers, fight this in court. And in a few years when its all settled they will be regulated in the states they need to be regulated in, which will probably be all states when all is said and done.

that is because if you set up an illegal operation the response isn't to send in regulators it is to shut you down.

if these organizations want to do business they need to go about it by getting licensed first  

they didn't do that, they thought they could exploit loophole that exists so yjff could exist, and they set up something well more complex than yjff.

Are you kidding me? You live for that shit! If someone offered you either a million dollars or the ability to tell someone "I told ya so" every day for the rest of your life, you'd turn down the money faster than a downhill cheetah.

Personally, I can't wait until the glorious day comes when DFS is regulated as much as online poker and horse racing, and I don't have to see a thousand commercials for it every day on every channel, website and other media outlets.

Keep working at that whole "comedy writing thing" one day you will get there champ.

But you can make a case if DFS didn't advertise as much as they did this past year, they probably still would be flying under the radar and not having to deal with any of this. You can make a case they brought it on themselves. They advertised so much and brought so much attention to themselves this was bound to happen.

The same harm that applies to any other form of gambling.

How does that make it a game of chance?  If anything, it emphasizes in-depth knowledge; you don't need to know anything about football to accurately pick the Patriots over the Titans, but you do need to know about football to accurately pick the Patriots -20 over the Titans.

But even if what you are saying were true: are you claiming that betting on the outcome of games is a "contest of skill" (and not "gambling") as long as there is no point spread?

No one said anything about gambling being evil.  Internet poker isn't evil, but it's banned in the United States.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq785nJ0FXQ

 Most telling stat is 1% of the DFS players win 91% of the money

John Oliver's fake ad starting at 15:25 is freaking brilliant.

It really was!

He crushes the whole "skill" argument.

I wish they had shut down FanDuel before this weekend. LOL I've been doing well all year and had turned a profit in every week except one of them.  This weekend, forget.  Seems like half my teams were injured.  I cashed in on ZERO games this week. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fantasysports-new-york-idUSKBN0TU1UA20151211?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter#08kLYdUXOXzSRPHD.97

New York ordered closed. 

With the amount of money this generates it will be back in NY once the State Legislature comes up with a plan to tax it.

What I find hilarious about this whole situation is that the DFS companies are arguing out their ass about it being a "game of skill" to try to get by New York's gambling label. As soon as this situation broke, both FanDuel and Draft Kings both started adding the following words to their advertisements...

"Test Your Skill!"