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What percentage of his seasons do they have to make the playoffs?

50?  60?  70?  80?

Marino 10/17

Fiedler 2/4

Tannehill 1/7

Percentage of playoffs seasons is not a determining factor in what makes a franchise quarterback.

Leadership, If they are able to put the team on their backs more times than not and they make other players look better. Those are the the traits I see in all franchise qbs

Exactly...those figures are OK to rate how well a team is playing, but until football becomes a 1-on-1 sport, team accomplishments are the entire team's accomplishments.

A franchise quarterback isn't one that's driven by stats. 

Its more like a checkbox.  "OK, that position is taken care of for the next decade....what's next."  It's kind of a "know it when you see it situation."


Philip Rivers is a franchise QB.  They make the playoffs here and there, but they're not consistently in the conversation.  But he's been there holding it down for the long-haul.

Careful D4L, your getting dangerously close to admitting Tom Brady is a franchise QB.   ;)

I used to feel this way until my new direction.

Now, I feel the way the rest of the country does. 

Quarterbacks are what decides who wins and loses games.

Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback who ever lived.

Sure, football is a team game and we could look at some actual numbers.  Or better yet, we could actually watch the games and analyze them, but why do that?

Marino was NOT a great quarterback.  In order to be great, you can't be a failure.  Since Marino never won the Super Bowl, he is a failure.  Therefore, he is not great.

However, great does not mean franchise.

Is making the playoffs in 10 out of seventeen seasons worthy enough to be a franchise quarterback?

Tom Brady is probably the only NFL with two complete First ballot hall of fame careers.  Assume for a moment TB retired after his 2008 injury.  Did he accomplish enough for first ballot, MVP, 3SB, SBMVP, only 16-0 season etc.  Yup he gets in first year of eligibility.  Now assume Patriots draft a QB named Tom Brady in 2009.  MVP, 3 SB including greatest comeback in playoff history, Pro Bowl every season etc.  Once again first ballot HoF.

I don't think you can do that with any other player.   

Maybe Manning.

We'd have to define how many seasons make career.

To appreciate Marino's greatness, we'd really need a conversion formula, but that's probably impossible to develop.

Mannings would get in on his career in Indy but not Denver.  You can pick what ever point you want, not necessarily when he switched teams, just make sure he accomplished enough on both sides of the line to guarantee HoF.

Marino got in on volume stats, cut those in half and he doesn't get nomineed.

I mean cut Manning's career into two halves.  Are each of those halves worthy enough for the HOF?   I say yes.

Stats aren't totally an individual thing, but they are a much better indicator of the quality of a player than a won-loss record.

Also, it does need to be mentioned that there CAN be anomalies.  Brady's record in multi-interception playoff games is well above 500.  It would interesting to compare that to those of the other multi-super bowl quarterbacks (Montana and Bradshaw)

Kurt Warner got in, and he didn't have the career in STL that Peyton had in DEN.

Scott Zolak has a superbowl ring. Is he a better QB than Marino?

D4L is just trolling. I refuse to believe anyone even remotely capable of putting together two sentences can be that dumb.

Scott Zolak does not have a superbowl ring.  Rohan Davey would be a better example.  Two superbowl rings.

Ugh. Patriots lost that superbowl to the Packers. Right.

That was my reaction at the time.  I have gotten over it. 

damon huard and dan marino are in business together, i wonder how much good natured jostling goes on between them about one of them having a ring and the other having a jacket.

I can't take most of this thread seriously.

Damon Huard has two rings, I thought

It's interesting.  After Marino retired, the Dolphins choose to start Fiedler instead of Huard.

Was this the right decision?

Huard would not become a regular starter again until 2006.

This is the point of the thread.

Dolphins fans often talk about the next coming of Dan Marino.

But if the team made the playoffs in less than two thirds of the seasons he started, does that mean that those times were all that good?

People on this board often say Marino's teams often had to get past the loaded Buffalo Bills.

Tannehill had to get past the loaded Patriots, but in his seven years, they split with them five teams.  One year they didn't split, the Dolphins made the playoffs. (Granted in 2015, the Patriots foolishly chose to Tank the game).

This was the best answer

Nah, it just means that your whole premise that wins and losses are a direct result of QB play and nothing else is faulty. There's a bit of truth to the premise, but only a bit. Once you realize that and look at all the other factors that a real student of the game will do then it all makes perfect sense.

But QB play is definitely a factor. If you look at Marino's playoff games he only had one loss in which he had a good game 1994 vs SD, Marino had a good game and Dolphins defense let him down.  In every other Miami playoff loss Marino played poorly. 

Can I have some of what you are smoking because it must be REALLY good. The avg points against in the playoff games that Miami lost with Marino at the helm was 34.5. Yeah REALLY stout defense by the Dolphins there. And what about the games that Miami won? Avg points against in those games was 15.75.

So it seems like when Miami would give up less then 20 they won, when giving up more than 30 they lost. Hmmm....well that doesn't seem to make any sense....wait a second that makes PERFECT sense. And let's see in those games how many did Marino NOT play well in? Zero. That's right everytime that Miami won 2 things happened. Marino played well and the defense did it's job. Everyone they lost either Marino didn't play well or the defense didn't play well or both. Usually both. Hmm....must just be coincidence that his numbers are bad when they are losing and he's putting the team on his back.

Wins:

WK   Game Date   Opp   Result   Comp   Att   Pct   Yds   Avg   TD   Int   Sck   Rate
18   29-Dec   SEA   W   31-10   21   34   61.8   262   7.7   3   2   0   90.6
19   6-Jan   PIT   W   45-28   21   32   65.6   421   13.2   4   1   0   135.4
18   4-Jan   CLE   W   24-21   25   45   55.6   238   5.3   1   1   0   68.6
18   5-Jan   KC   W   17-16   19   30   63.3   221   7.4   2   0   2   107.8
19   10-Jan   SD   W   31-0   17   29   58.6   167   5.8   3   0   0   109.4
18   31-Dec   KC   W   27-17   22   29   75.9   257   8.9   2   0   1   125.2
18   2-Jan   BUF   W   24-17   23   34   67.6   235   6.9   1   1   1   84.8
18   9-Jan   @ SEA   W   20-17   17   30   56.7   196   6.5   1   0   1   87.6

Losses:

WK   Game Date   Opp   Result   Comp   Att   Pct   Yds   Avg   TD   Int   Sck   Rate
18   31-Dec   SEA   L   20-27   15   25   60   193   7.7   2   2   0   77.6
20   20-Jan    @ SF   L   16-38   29   50   58   318   6.4   1   2   4   66.9
19   12-Jan   NE   L   14-31   20   48   41.7   248   5.2   2   2   1   54.9
19   12-Jan   @ BUF   L   34-44   23   49   46.9   323   6.6   3   2   0   72.1
20   17-Jan   BUF   L   10-29   22   45   48.9   268   6   1   2   4   56.5
19   8-Jan   @ SD   L   21-22   24   38   63.2   262   6.9   3   0   1   109.8
18   30-Dec   @ BUF   L   22-37   33   64   51.6   422   6.6   2   3   0   63.4
18   28-Dec   @ NE   L   3-17   17   43   39.5   141   3.3   0   2   4   29.3
19   9-Jan   @ DEN   L   3-38   26   37   70.3   243   6.6   0   2   1   65.5
19   15-Jan   @ JAC   L   7-62   11   25   44   95   3.8   1   2   2   34.6

Another thing I noticed. Marino was 7-3 at home 1-7 away. So when playing at home against a probably inferior team he was pretty good, but when playing away probably against a superior team he didn't fare so well. That's pretty much the exact same thing that you would expect from a guy like Brady as well the only difference is that Brady plays at home most of his playoff games, Marino didn't have that luxury.

Just some more fuel for the fire. If Marino wasn't one of the greatest of all time, why did everyone tune in to watch him go up against arguably one of the best defenses of all time?

https://www.reddit.com/r/miamidolphins/comments/dltmuk/dolphins_end_85_bears_undefeated_season_week_13/

Surprising that the Dolphins won that game despite Marino according to Hoodie. Marino was the only QB to beat that Defense that year. Luckily the Bears were without McMahon which probably prevented it from being the shootout that many expected, but Marino did his part.

^^^^Marino had an excellent game against the Bears defense, I give him the majority of the credit for that win.  But I also give him the much of the blame for the Dolphins not advancing to the superbowl for rematch.  He played poorly against a NE defense that wasn’t nearly as good as the bears.

Dolphins beating the Bears was a surprise, but not nearly as shocking as NE beating Mia.

As for why it was a highly watched game....you had two great teams.  One of which was undefeated.  This Monday nights game might break records for least watched.

Patriots-Giants was highly watched and that game was meaningless for playoff standings for both teams.  Giants had the 5 seed, NE had the 1.

Agreed, it was one of his worst career playoff games other then the Jax debacle which by that time Marino was a shell of his former self and not really even the focus of the offense anymore. And the NE game was not quite as bad as you imagine it. Marino did not play well but neither did anyone on the offensive side of the ball. I think they had like 6 turnovers in that Game Marino had 2 INT's but he also had 2 TD's. Clearly they didn't lose solely because of Marino, they lost because the team as a whole played poorly.

Marino’s career passing rate is 86.4.  There is only one game where he played above his own average and the Dolphins lost anyway.  There is also only one game he played poorly and the team won despite of him. Like with Peyton, Dan was a better regular season QB than post season QB.  Montana and Brady on the other hand have less regular season records but often come up big in the post-season.   

The difference is, for Brady at least, when he has a bad game, his teams often win anyway.  This is a luxury Marino never had.  

These numbers are since Seattle Super Bowl victory so they may need some updating.

Brady has a winning record in playoff games in which has thrown at least three interceptions (2-1).  

Brady has a winning record in playoff games in which he has thrown at least two interceptions (4-3).

Brady has a winning record in playoff games in which his quarterback rating has been below 80 (7-4).

Brady has a winning record in playoff games when his rating is below 70 (3-2)

Brady has an UNDEFEATED record in playoff games when his rating is below 60 (2-0)

Since then, Brady has had at least three more multi-interception playoff games and won 2 of them

When Marino had a multi-interception game in the playoffs his team was 1-8

When Brady had a multi-interception game in the playoffs, his team was 6-4

This is evidence of my old point that it is not fair to compare quarterbacks by Super Bowls.

Of course, it's also necessary to remember that Marino didn't play in the pass-happy NFL like it is now.

I guess it would be more accurate to say Brady's TEAMS often come up big for him in the playoffs.
 

You take a lot crap for your posts so I feel obligated to point out this is a great post!

I actually don't disagree about Marino being an a little over-rated.  Which, I know, is something to be burned at the stake for around here. 

Look, the guy is my all-time favorite player.  I loved the guy.  He is the best Miami has had, he put up video game numbers in an era when QB's were physically assaulted (along with wideouts).  But he's also among the all time great choke artists in the history of sports (not just football).  You can't put up those kind of numbers and have the type of failure he had.  I don't want to hear about lack of this or that; some of those teams had decent running attacks and a strong defense.  So, to address the question, was Marino a franchise quarterback?

The (Orange Bowl) at the time was sold out most of the time.  #13 was among the highest selling jerseys in sports.  The franchise, along with the Giants and Dallas, was the most valuable in the league - even without winning, because of it's quarterback.  The fan base was (mostly) happy, the owners were counting their money. 

Meanwhile, the Buffalo Bills went to four straight Super Bowls under Jim Kelly and, at one point in time, needed a loan from the league. 

At the end of the day it's a business. 

I think, sometimes, this goes beyond wins and loses.  Miami, as a franchise, never recovered from the loss of Marino - however still makes money on his ghost. 

Agreed. Thanks for making my point for me. I don't need to add anything. Hoodie is clearly biased and that's fine, he is afterall a Patriot fan and I wouldn't expect anything different. What I don't get is that he can't see that he's a Patriot fan and clearly will have a different opinion then Dolphin fans. A few years from now when Brady is retired and Mahomes is tearing up the league and being called the GOAT, he'll probably have a different opinion on that as well.

I do have to point out one flaw in your argument that D4L did not mention. You are taking a subset of Marino's entire post season and selecting ONLY the games where the Dolphins lost and trying to make that a point of emphasis. That's CLEARLY cherry picking the stats in the WORST POSSIBLE WAY. Obviously taking JUST the games that the team lost is NOT going to reflect well on Marino's stats. When you look at his ENTIRE post season career it's a COMPLETELY different story so please stop. Your analytical analysis is CLEARLY faulty. Stop thinking it proves anything about Marino. All it proves is that when your team loses your QB's performance is going to suffer. That's true of ALL QB's.

I doubt we will ever see a quarterback get as many breaks as Brady has during his career.

I thought I would bump this thread with Brady leaving New England, and with Miami's quarterback situation still unresolved

I looked up the other quarterbacks who are usually mentioned with him in the discussion of the GOAT

Brady:       6-4 in multi-interception playoff games
Montana:   4-1 in multi-interception playoff games
Manning:   2-5 in multi-interception playoff games
Bradshaw: 4-5 in multi-interception playoff games

Marino, on the other hand was 1-9 in multi-interception playoff games