The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Rumor has it, Watson wants out of Houston.  The price would be steep, like Tua, the #3 pick, and more. 

What would you rather have on this team, long term, moving forward (if possible):
Tua, or Watson?

Not interested. Don't think Watson is worth a draft pick let alone giving up on Tua as well.

Nope

Watson can stay in Houston, thanks.

Before this season I would have said no way, but I think he played very well this season and without DeAndre Hopkins to boot.

I wouldn't give up Tua and the #3 pick, though. That's basically two high first round picks. That's too rich, IMHO.

The contract and draft picks would make this too steep of a price but Watson is great. He played hard all year and even went out there Week 17 while banged up and threw for 365 yards on a 4 win team. He is an elite QB so hopefully he stays out of the AFC East.

He's also been around a bit and banged up a bit. I'll take my chances with Tua especially since we don't have to give up anything and he's still on a rookie contract. I'm far from convinced about Tua but on the other hand he did about what I expected from him in his rookie year so I'm actually not down on him either like some seem to be. I think most of them had much higher expectations then I did.

 
I would consider it if the price was right.  Keep in mind that Houston is going into a total rebuild mode, so they are not negotiating from a position of strength.  No way they get Tua and the #3 pick.   Not with that contract.

Word is, the Texans are asking for 3 firsts and 3 seconds.  They are out of their minds

He is untradeable as it would involve a $67 million dollar cap hit.   

That's the problem with the Texans, they have no idea about anyone's trade value because Bill O'Brien was a complete idiot. Their only shot at getting that price is trading to a team wHO hired Bill O'Brien to be their GM.

Let's suppose that Mahomes wanted out of KC.  Would 3 firsts and 3 seconds be a fair ask?
What about if Rodgers wanted out of GB?

I know no one wants to talk about what WSH paid for RG3 because Dan Snyder is crazy.  So let's remember that Jared Goff (plus a fourth and a sixth) was traded for 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 2 thirds.

Deshaun Watson today is a LOT better than Jared Goff was coming out of college.

The issue with the Goff trade is that it was incredibly stupid at the time and worse now. Watson and Mahomes are a million times better than Goff but no one is worth no draft picks for 2 years. Even O'Brien wouldn't do that trade.

Are you saying that even Mahomes isn't worth 3 firsts and 3 seconds?   Because the flipside of what you are saying is that if someone offers a GM 3 firsts and 3 seconds for a player - no matter who that player is - that GM should always take it, as they are necessarily coming out ahead in that deal.

I mean, suppose we could go back in time to the 2000 or 2005 draft, with all GMs knowing what Brady or Rodgers will do.  What you're essentially saying is that if someone offered CLE or SF 3 firsts and 3 seconds for Brady or Rodgers, those teams should accept those trades.

I don't think draft picks are as valuable as you imply.  Look at the last 10 years of MIA first- and second-round picks, and tell me how many of them would have been worth giving up to have Mahomes or Watson on this team right now.

P.S. It is also worth mentioning that only 3 years after the incredibly stupid trade that left their cupboard bare of high-value draft picks, the Rams were tied for the best record in the league and made it to the Super Bowl.  Doesn't seem like they were hamstrung very much by that trade!

It depends on where you pick and how close you are to a championship. Cap space too is a factor. In general, if you lose your 1st and 2nd rounder for 3 years, you are on your way down. However, if you are an 11 win team with a crap QB, Mahomes can get you a championship or two.....before you start to go down the standings because you have no draft picks and your cap space is non existent since you have no cheap talent.

It's basically a Bill O'Brien move. You risk it all for short term glory, it's up to you whether you think it's worth it or not. I don't but I admit if we win 11 games next year while Tua plays like trash, I wouldn't be screaming if we made that trade since we are close to a championship.

No way.

After getting ourselves into a pretty nice position to build towards something special, the last thing we need to do is blow away a strong draft and a massive chunk of cap space.

The Rams were 7-9 (or worse) for a full decade before picking Jared Goff.  They were not close.  They got a good-enough QB - Goff played quite well in 2017 and 2018 - and quickly went to the SB.  They just won a road playoff game today.  Any cap space issues they have had have come from rewarding existing players, and would not really be solved by having more picks in the past.  (Unless you think they should have drafted to replace Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey?)

You are no more on your way down than if you use those picks yourself and miss on them, as MIA has done repeatedly over the last decade.

Picks are important, but not NEARLY as important as a young, proven Pro Bowl-caliber QB.

That is a dumb hypothetical.  You can’t offer CLE 6 picks and get Brady.

So you're saying that it should be 8 picks?  Maybe 10?  Or is there no amount of picks that is worth it for CLE to give up Brady?

If the latter, then the real question at hand is not the value of the picks, but whether one thinks Watson is good.

It seems that trade talks between the Dolphins and the Texans are heating up.  A buddy of mine who knows a couple of the Dolphins beat writers are saying that the Texans will settle for Tua, the Dolphins lower first rounder and their higher second rounder.

Personally, I would pull the trigger on that deal.  It leaves the Dolphins still in possession of the #3 pick which that can grab Sewell with.  Or they can trade down with Cincy to #5, recoup at least one of those picks, and grab Chase or another O-lineman. 

It is a dumb hypocritical because CLE never has Brady.  A real hypothetical would be “based on what we know now is there any amount of picks that BB should have accepted to trade Brady and keep Bledsoe in 2002?”

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports Texans QB Deshaun Watson "is still angry about team's insensitivity to social justice."

Mort added that Watson's anger over the team's insensitivity to social justice issues includes their hiring practices and not even giving Chiefs OC Eric Bieniemy an interview. Watson has reportedly gone to bat for Bieniemy within the Houston organization and Bieniemy's record should speak for itself. He has been the Chiefs OC in all three of Patrick Mahomes' three seasons as a starter and is serving under arguably the greatest offensive-minded head coach in the NFL, Andy Reid. Houston's refusal to interview him is questionable at best. Mort included the fact that Watson's new contract gave him a no-trade clause. With the no-trade clause in his deal, the Texans can't simply move Watson to the highest bidder. They will have to find a place Watson wants to land for him to waive the clause. Mort's sources speculated that a deal with Miami involving Tua Tagovailoa would be considered by Watson. The deal may be best for both parties at Tagovailoa has failed to live up to expectations in his first year and Watson's relationship with Houston may be fractured beyond repair.
Source: Chris Mortensen on Twitter
Jan 10, 2021, 11:42 AM ET

1) The writers for Rotoworld have become insufferable with their hot takes.
2) I would hope Watson isn't actually putting priority on social justice issues over football issues. Unlike Kaepernick, he is actually a good QB and shouldn't get his career off course hoping that a dysfunctional organization gets into politics.
3) There is no Tua and draft picks for Watson trade. That's just fantasy shit we talk about here and on Twitter.
4) The Texans would have to be happy with the compensation while Watson is happy about the compensation as well as destination. DeShaun doesn't want to go to another Bill O'Brien situation where they mortgaged a ton for one guy.

This is just shit for us to talk about in the offseason. He might be traded but it's likely they kiss and make up and make some empty gesture that placates him and he will regret it during Week 5 of next  year when they are 1-4.

Yes, the last thing we need is citizens caring more about the state of the country and world  at large than his own football career.  That is the problem with this country too many people put the good of the country over their own selfish ambitions. Shame on Watson for carrying about social issues.  He should follow the lead of Muhammad Ali who never once allowed politics to get in his way to become a champion. /sarcasm off

There is nothing the Texans can do that Deshaun Watson cannot do himself. I could be wrong, but has Watson done anything himself for whatever causes he believes the Texans should also believe in? If not, then he is just a slacktivist and should focus on football.

Let's be honest here, if JJ Watt refused to play for a team that didn't donate $25 Million to the GOP and take a stance against abortion, we wouldn't be praising him. We need less politics in sports, not more. Everyone can do their part on their own time and make 100x more of a difference than asking for stupid ownership to do anything.

It would make the team instantly in the conversation for a serious run and Super Bowl talk, but no I wouldn’t do it. I don’t think they would be good enough against some of the AFC teams. We still need a lot of upgrades in a lot of areas. Very disappointing end of the year for Tua and there is some doubts and it’s worth scouting QB’s in the draft or getting Trubisky or someone for some competition for Tua.

The hypothetical was to redo the 2000 draft, in which the Cleveland Browns had the #1 overall pick.

In such a hypothetical, CLE would have certainly used said pick on Tom Brady.  That's the point.

It's kind of funny we see the same thing but see it differently. I see Watson's mobility as a hazard to his long term health. I look at Brady, Brees, and Rodgers and see long term QBs who aren't very mobile. Because of that they take way less hits than the mobile QBs. The top 5 oldest QBs are not very mobile. Russell Wilson would be the oldest mobile QB but it doesn't seem like there are very many.

Tom Brady (Tampa Bay Buccaneers) -- 43 years, 158 days
Drew Brees (New Orleans Saints) -- 41 years, 359 day
Philip Rivers (Indianapolis Colts) -- 39 years, 31 days
Ben Roethlisberger (Pittsburgh Steelers) -- 38 years, 312 days
Aaron Rodgers (Green Bay Packers) -- 37 years, 37 days

You don't think Rodgers is mobile?  He has more rushing yards/game (16.6) than Elway (14.6), and he's very close to Mahomes (17.6), who is much younger.

This is at least a reasonable trade offer.  IMO no player is worth 2 or 3 #1's and #2's; you just handicap your team for too long.  The way the NFL cap situation works now you need to be bringing in high quality young talent every year, at rookie wage scales, to be able to remain competitive.  If your a NE team of the past you can get away with bringing in free agents that are chasing a Super Bowl on the cheap, but that's an exception to the rule.

As for getting rid of Tua the only people with enough knowledge to make that judgement is the coaching staff; they are the ones that have seen him in practice, they are the ones that set the growth pattern for him and know whether he reached the goals they set for him this season.  From what I saw of his play there is no reason to move on from him,yet.  But I don't know, nor do any of us know, what the coaching staff expected of him this past season.

Who was Ali employed by???

Allah

Starting to think there might be more to these trade rumors then I imagined. If players are saying this, then I can't imagine that Flores/Grier are dead set with him being the starter next year. They might be saying that just to avoid negatively influencing possible trades.

https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article248464745.html?__twitter_impression=true

By Armando Salguero

...all I needed to see

Well this is not really an opinion piece, Armando is just reporting that he's talked to some players off the record and what they said. I don't think he's going to lie about that. Now when it comes to his opinion, then that's a whole different thing.

I'm always iffy about unnamed sources, it could be some jobbers from the practice squad for all we know.

According to Joe Rose unnamed sources typically refers to agents saying their client said this or that. Joe said agents are where reporters get most of their information. He also stated since it is coming from them it could be bad or exaggerated just being second hand already or it could be someone with an agenda. Either way it's hard to get too excited about unnamed sources.

It's not like we have the surrounding interview anyway, or even just the question. If you look at the actual quotes and presumably-near-quotes, it would be pretty easy to ask the question in a way in what that was a completely sane answer by Tua's greatest fan.

Ya'll can spin it if you want, but that's not want Armando said. He didn't say it was unnamed sources and he didn't say it was agents. He said players talked to the Herald. He just didn't say which players. Yes it could be someone from the practice squad although that's still pretty damning in my opinion.

I don't understand the supposed confusion by the players over the "Tua is the starter but every position is a competition" statement.  Are these same players confused as to whether X will be starting at CB next year?

Pappy ... LOL ... if you don't think Joe Rose, who has been a part of the team for 40+ years, flies with the team, hangs out at the facility during practices when the media isn't even aloud, doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to players, agents, and writers then you are nuts. He also plays tennis (his big hobby) with both writers and agents. How many times has a writer said "agents told me this or that"? They don't. They say "unnamed" players said this or that because that's what their agents said or hinted at.

For the record I don't know that Joe Rose is sold on Tua either but he did blow off his friend Armando's story. 

That's not what I said. What Joe Rose said according to you is that "unnamed sources" means agents. Well that's not what Amarndo wrote. He wrote players. Now maybe Joe Rose meant when writers write players they really mean agents, but I'm not sure that's accurate for either that's what he said or that's what he meant. I think it's a stretch that in all cases when a writer writes players they really mean agents. Are you saying that Armando NEVER talks to a player, only his agent? I don't think so. Joe Rose has players on his show, I'm sure that Armando talks to players as well as agents. I don't think he would have wrote players if he really talked to agents of players. Maybe he would, but I think that's a stretch. It's more likely he would have wrote sources perhaps even unnamed sources, but that's not what he wrote.

If you don't want to believe the story because Joe Rose said so then don't but don't try to tell me that Joe Rose knows everything. Unless he can somehow show that he knows that Armando didn't talk to any players or that they didn't say that then he's just another guy with an opinion. I'm not giving Armando too much credit, you're giving Joe Rose too much credit. Maybe the very reason these players didn't talk to Joe Rose is because he flies with them on the plane? That might get back to Tua or Flores or someone else that could get them in a some hot water. Talking to Armando off the record might be safer and they would be more forthcoming.

I get what you are saying and it makes sense to me looking in from the outside but I will say this. Joe Rose said that writers have very few players' numbers and if they do it's probably a retired player. He said players do not give out their numbers and tell reporters and others to contact them through their agents or the team. Typically players do not trust reporters. Think about it ... would you give anonymous comments to a person who could then hold it over your head for future favors? Players are coached by the team, the league, and their agents on dealing with the media and that's why agents do most of the leaking. that or a crazy wife ... hahaha.  I've heard Armando on Joe's show probably over a hundred times and I would take Joe's word before I would take Armando's article. In fact I don't even know that Armando's personal opinion and his articles always line up. Of course I'd say the same about Omar, Barry Jackson and so on. They have to sell papers.

Reporters don't reveal their sources. Ever. You do that and you're out of the business, simple as that. Players know this as well as the reporters, especially the veteran players. If they say off the record to a reporter then it's off the record, end of story. Players can say whatever they want to a reporter off the record, it's not getting back to anyone, it would mean the reporters job.

Now for as to how they talked to them well it's not like they live on different planets. They live in the same state. They frequent the same places. A good reporter knows where the players hang out and can easily "run into" a player, they don't have to call them up to ask a couple questions. Hell a reporter can buy them a beer and ask them a couple questions. It's not like he asked to do an interview with them. This could be just some casual conversation over a beer, off the record of course. In Texas they have a radio station called the ticket which is a sports only talk show and they know the players personally. They are friends with most of them. They talk regularly with them, not for the show but just because they know each other. Now I don't really know if reporters and players have that same type of relationship as players and Sports talk show hosts, but I bet it's pretty similar. A reporter can do just as much for a player as the player can do for the reporter. Player gives a little information to the reporter and reporter writes a nice story about said player. That's how the game is played. This is well known. Reporters can't afford to get on the bad side of players, it means too much to their careers.

No. Let someone else trade away the franchise for Watson.

I wouldn't exactly call the #18 and #36 pick plus Tua "the franchise".  That's what I would offer Houston for Watson, take it or leave it.  We can then draft a franchise left tackle to protect Watson at #3 or trade back and recoup some of the picks we gave up to get Watson, and land a home run receiver at the same time.

We also have to factor in that DeShaun has a no trade clause so it won't matter what the Jets offer, he would probably say no. After all, the more they offer the less appealing the team is and they are already pretty unappealing.

Going through a list of contending teams that could use a QB and have draft picks and cap space, I don't know if any exist but us. Your offer of Tua, the 18th and 36th picks might be their best offer that has a chance at happening.

A very short time ago I felt like this would never happen, but now I think there is an over 50% chance Watson is our Week 1 QB. Watson is furious and leaking everything to the media while the Houston ownership is of course stupid and can't do anything right.

The No Trade is really what makes this the most interesting because he wants out but there is no way he is going to accept a trade to a losing team or a team that will gut it's roster and draft capital to acquire him. That really leaves Miami as one of the only true options that would satisfy Watson, Houston and Miami. We can offer them Tua and despite a not so great rookie year, he is still very valuable and will probably turn into at worst a solid NFL QB. Throw in a 1st and 2nd rounder and that should be their best offer and not gut Miami either.

I wouldn't even give them our 3rd pick, give them the 18th and 36th picks. Not like they can go to the Jets or Falcons and get a better offer, Deshaun won't go to those shit teams.

Armando was on with Joe Rose this morning. A few things I found interesting towards this topic.

- Armando said he doesn't see the Dolphins trading for a proven young QB like Watson as it will take 3 firsts and then some more to get him (We traded a LT for 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and player swap). That doesn't fit into what they are trying to do.
- Armando finds it odd that only ESPN is being "leaked" this information. Said typically when info like this is leaked multiple sources will get it
- Joe Rose said to Armando "don't you think it's an agent leaking this stuff to better his client's position" and Armando said "absolutely".
- Joe and Armando also said the timing isn't even right for trade talk as it couldn't take place for two months and most of us would change our minds in that amount of time.
- Lastly when Joe pressed Armando on his article about what "players" are saying and how it blew up Armando responded by saying he was surprised as no one said anything we didn't already know.

Well, we would be trading Tua as well so that would count as a high 1st rounder, that just leaves us with a few more picks. However, there are a lot of unique factors with this and the biggest one is his no trade clause. Watson isn't being traded to the team with the best offer, he is being traded to one of the teams he wants to go to with the best offer. We don't have to pay market value.

That being said, the other points he made do make a lot of sense. I don't know what posturing will get him right now though since he already got his money and nothing the new GM can do will make a lick of difference in 2021 since the team has no money or draft picks.  The franchise could always just refuse to trade him and try to make amends but Tua, good draft picks and cap space? That is tempting for a franchise that right now has absolutely no hope.

The Jets are in a much better position to offer. Based on history of bad decisions it also wouldn't surprise if they were to redo his contract as well to make him happier. It definitely seems like we would have to change our whole philosophy of doing things if we were to go after him but I guess anything is possible. If Tua wasn't so accurate I might feel differently. I have to believe they will give him more weapons before they close the door on him. It would really suck to give him away and he has a Drew Brees career meanwhile our mobile QB is hobbled like RG III in year two.

I disagree with a lot of this paragraph.

1) It doesn't matter what the Jets "have to offer" because Watson has a no-trade clause.  The relevant party they would have to work hardest to convince is Watson, not the Texans, and throwing more picks at HOU would not help convince Watson.  I also don't think the Jets even have "more to offer"; Darnold is worthless, and Tua + 3 + 18 (for example) is worth a lot more than 2 + 23 + future picks.

2) What "philosophy of doing things" are you referring to?  MIA's OC just retired, and if there is any hallmark of Flores's time in MIA, it's that he has swapped QBs on a dime with little concern for "philosophy."

3) The RG3 comparison is an interesting one to make.  First of all, RG3 had a FAR better rookie season than Tua.  However, he was ruined by poor decisions from his head coach, who valued winning today over the long-term career of his promising rookie QB.  Sound familiar?

Again, Watson has already proven that he is a HOF-potential QB that we hope Tua might turn out to be.  My concern is that Flores has potentially already ruined Tua, and so if MIA has the opportunity to trade him for a 25-year-old proven superstar QB, I'd rather let HOU figure out whether Tua has been broken beyond repair.  Right now, I feel like Tua is more likely to be on the RG3 career path than Watson.  (Tua is certainly the bigger injury risk.)

Like I said NY is likely to offer him a better contract. They have a ton of money left on the salary cap so they can do it. If NY does that then it helps him to make the move. The Jets own six selections in the top 98 picks of April's Draft: Round 1, Nos. 2 and 23 (via Seattle); Round 2 (No. 34); Round 3, Nos. 66 and No. 87 (via Seattle); and Round 4, No. 98. They also have two #1s in next years draft.  

Philosophy is team first, build from within, and not sacrificing picks and trades to get things done. Not sure how swapping QBs to win contradicts any of that.

He was ruined by running the ball and getting clobbered. I was a big RGIII fan as I like him personally. My dad and I used to debate this often. Unfortunately my dad turned out to be correct.

Your concern with Flores ruining Tua is almost laughable because all we do is see Tua cheering from the sideline after getting pulled. Tua was tops on a team that manufactures players who are team first. I don't see anything different in team first philosophies whether it be Alabama, Miami, or New England.  As far as injury tua has learned to go down instead of take the hit. Seems a lot more in line with Brady or Brees to me than RGIII.  

Watson just signed the 2nd biggest contract in league history.  I doubt "more money" will convince him to play for the Jets.

In that case, I'm not sure how signing a free agent to the highest CB contract in the league fits under "build from within," but whatever.

Cam Newton and Lamar Jackson won MVPs running the ball, and neither of them were "ruined" by it.  RG3 was ruined because Mike Shanahan kept playing him even when he was clearly already injured, leading to an even worse injury.

We also saw Tua scared to throw the ball downfield for most of the season, and completely unable to do so effectively when he needed to in the final game.  Sure would have been nice to get him some experience being aggressive in comeback situations against DEN or LV, instead of on the road at the #2 seed!

All three parties need to agree — Watson, Texans and the receiving team.  If I am the GM of the Texans, I would say to Watson, “if you want a trade, I will get you a trade, but you need to sign a document waiving the no trade clause of the contract and go to what ever team we trade you to, if you don’t sign it, then conversion is over, see you at mandatory OTAs.”

Most people agree that Tua did not have open receivers. He did better against teams like San Diego and even brought us back against Arizona because he had Parker, Preston Williams, Gesicki, and Jakeem Grant. Not the best but formidable receivers. He didn't have those guys a lot down the stretch and was even playing with practice squad guys. Fitzpatrick is a risk taker and throws to covered receivers. He has a long career of that both working out and becoming Fitztragic. He won one game for us doing that and lost the other which history says is typical for him.  

It seems to me you, as well as other fans, are faulting him for not having anyone to throw to. It reminds me of Tannehill's years where people said how he sucked because he had no running game nor offensive line. Now he has both and is one of the most efficient and best statistical quarterbacks in the league. Funny how those things go together. Kind of like if the great Marino would have had a running game and a defense.

To be clear, I am not faulting Tua at all.  He is doing what he is told to do, all with the knowledge that if he has a few bad quarters, he will immediately be benched.  None of the other rookie QBs had this kind of sword looming over their head every game.  In fact, I can't think of any other first-round rookie QB ever that's been benched for performance before his first loss.

And if I were Watson, I'd say, "OK, see you there.  In the meantime, I will be blasting the owner and front office in the media at every opportunity while collecting the second-highest contract in the league, and every day you wait, your compensation package in the trade will get worse.  You don't even have enough cap room to cut me.  Also, I think my previously-torn ACL is feeling sore.  Be a shame if that got out to the media."

HOU has no leverage here.

Hou has the same leverage as Steelers had with Bell.  If you want to sit home and not collect paychecks that is you choice.  Didn’t work out so well for Bell. 

Watson would never do that but Houston does have leverage since he is legally under contract. However, Watson does too. No one wants someone trashing ownership on a daily basis and he can sit out a certain number of games and still have it count as a year on his contract. I think the number is 7 but I could be wrong. He wouldn't be getting paid but that is a nightmare for the team and something they want to avoid.

Truth is, no one can offer what we can. We are giving them Tua, a kid who can turn into a great QB and a certain number of draft picks. A trade gives Houston cap space, draft picks and a potential stud QB. This is their best chance at a rebuild, otherwise they just max out at 6-10 with Watson the next 2 years.

Bit off topic but the Seahawks are interviewing Adam Gase to be their new OC. Since they obviously hate Russell Wilson, maybe we can offer them the Watson trade package.

The no trade clause gives Hou leverage.  If Mia calls Hou and says, “we understand Watson is unhappy, you interested in a trade?”.   Rather than discussing they should respond, “sorry would love to discuss but he has a no trade clause, so no point in discussing “. If Watson’s agent than goes to Hou about why they didn’t work out a deal they can respond.  “You talked to Mia?  That’s tampering “

This only works if Houston won't trade him at any cost. They would be foolish to not listen to offers......and they are a foolish organization so maybe you're right.

Bell was not under contract and refused to sign a franchise tag.  The situations are not remotely similar.

HOU would have to cut over $80M in salary just to be able to afford to cut Watson.

You have this exactly backwards.  "No-trade" clauses give the player leverage, not the team... as every contract already has a "no-trade" clause from the team's perspective (any trade requires the team's approval).

Watson's no-trade clause doesn't mean he can't be traded; it means he can't be traded without his approval.  And it would indeed be tampering for any other team to ask Watson directly, which means HOU has to seek his approval themselves.

Well some first round QB's don't even take the field their rookie season, so by that metric Tua is way ahead.

I'm not even sure if Tua wouldn't have been better off sitting the entire season this year.  Now he has to spend this season unlearning extremely conservative play due to the terror of making any possible mistake and immediately being benched.

It is going to come down to how much Watson wants to leave and what he is going to do to make that happen. He might prefer Miami above all the other teams, but Houston won't give him away. So, will he agree to go to whoever has the best offer for Houston? Unlikely because it doesn't matter how much you hate someone, no one wants to go to the Jets.

Another problem is that thanks to Bill O'Brien, Houston has no idea what players are worth. Hopkins was given away while they paid a King's ransom for Tunsil. So many variables in this trade but if it does happen, I do think Miami is the destination. No one else can offer what the team and Watson want.

Watson is very very good, but I say you don't do this deal.  Build the team through the draft, build it through competition, intelligently acquire free agents. Let poorly run teams blow up their future and cap for an "elite" player. How's that working out for Houston ?

You get Watson if the price is right. Being able to throw Tua into the package gives us an advantage over other teams. I am fine with keeping Tua and keeping our picks or acquiring more via trade down, but I am all for Watson joining the team if the price is right. We won 10 games with mediocre at best QB play, what can Watson do for us? You have to figure we are now worse than 11-5 next year, probably better with him as the starter.

The Dolphins played the Jets twice, plus the Jaguars and Bengals. We lucked into the fourth string 49ers. We beat exactly ONE team that ended the season with a winning record. We even managed to lose to the Broncos.

A team like that (with the odd loss to a bad team and only a single win against a winning team) usually ends up around 8-8.

Nine out of ten years, that Dolphins team doesn't win more than 9 games. Max.

Ridiculous schedule luck does not carry over from season to season, sadly, so the Dolphins will need to improve significantly in order to have a chance at 10 wins again.

I love Tua, and expect that he will continue to improve this coming season. That said, Deshaun Watson is most definitely an elite QB. If the only picks Miami has to give are our 1st and 2nd rounders, plus Tua...I might have to at least consider it. That would allow us to have Penei Sewell protecting Deshaun's blind side...and with all due respect to Laremy Tunsil, he can't carry Sewell's jock.

I'd consider it for sure...just not sure I'd pull the trigger. Where my trigger finger gets a bit hogtied is when I consider the salary of Deshaun vs Tua, and what else we could get with that cap space.

Again...not sure.

Did you even watch the games when he was pulled, or are you like D4L commenting on things in the blind?  Tua was on the sidelines cheering Fitz on and staying involved with what was going on.  It is widely apparent that Flores has given Tua his full support going forward.  I really don't get why you are so hung up on the developmental path that Flores has for Tua, Tua doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

I don't get MIA games here and can only watch highlights.  That being said, I'm shocked you put any stock in a benched player cheering successful plays from his team.  That shows that Tua isn't a dick, but doesn't tell you anything about his development on the field.  What we can see there is that he has played very conservatively, and that he has repeatedly been pulled from still-winnable games when aggressive play is called for.

Can't really disagree with any of this. In terms of winning now, I get the moves that Flores made but they certainly didn't help in his development.

Pete Brisco was on Joe Rose and said he believes it's all posturing by Watson to gain more control of the team and who they hire. Said no one trades a QB with the talent of DW. It's almost impossible to get another. As well they discussed the dozens of teams that would compete to get him. In fact... Joe said in his home state of California the talking heads are heavily suggesting San Fran swapping Nick Bosa as a starting point. Apparently they are done with Jimmy G.

It doesn't seem like this story is going away anytime soon.

It could be posturing but the team is truly in rough shape and will be for at least another 2 years due to no draft picks or cap space. So, he may just want out after experiencing a terrible season which will be repeated in 2021.

I bet Deshaun would love throwing to Deebo Samuel, Brandon Aiyuk and George Kittle.  :o

Just sayin'...

Tough division and they don't have the capital to make a trade work. Plus, they are very close to the cap and have important free agents coming up. Cutting Jimmy G like I totally recommended awhile ago may not be enough.

Rivers just retired so the Colts need a QB but trading within the division is unlikely.

Just as long as he doesn't go to the Patriots.  I'm sick to my stomach just thinking about that. 

They don't have the capital to trade for him, very few teams can even come close without gutting their roster or future.

If we are just talking about teams that can pay a lot for him and not crush their future drafts, it's pretty much just us. That no trade of his changes it all, they can't dump him off to the Jets or Jaguars now. Still seems crazy he could be traded but if Watson wants to force the issue and tell them he will sit out the maximum number of games allowed and still have it count as a contract year, then they are in a very tough spot. Let's see if ownership can stop fucking up and make nice with him. All they had to do was not lie to him about the GM and Coaching searches.

I know, I was just thinking out loud about how horrific it would be.  Because you know if they had the capital, etc. they would be making a major effort.

I still think that at the end of all of this, Watson will be in a Dolphins uniform and we will draft a left tackle that will be a cornerstone of this offensive line for at least a decade.

That would be amazing, it all comes down to Watson really. Will he play the villain and threaten to sit out half the season and force the Texans to trade him to his desired team? If so, Tua plus 18 and 36 will get it done since that would be the only offer on the table. If not, they will work it out or Watson will just take the field and do his best on a 5 win team for the next few years.

Hard to make predictions when you have emotions(Watson) and stupidity(Texans) so prominently involved.

I bring this up because you repeatedly infer that Tua's psyche is going to be harmed because he is pulled from a game.  His actions and Coach Flores' statements clearly support that Tua is the starter, and Tua is not worried, so I disagree with you that pulling him from games is hurting his development.

As for his development I'm more concerned with getting a permanent OC, and other position coaches.

John McClain, who is in his 45th year at the Houston Chronicle and his 44th covering the National Football League, including the Oilers and Texans was on Hoch and Crowder this afternoon. He all but guaranteed Watson wouldn't be traded and said ESPN reports are over blown. Said Watson never said he wanted anything to do with GM pick and only mentioned wanting to be a part of the coaching search.

Funniest thing was Hoch jokingly told him he wasn't letting up on the Watson to Miami story and McClain responded by saying something along the lines of "I understand ... you've got to get those clicks". hahahaha

If the reports are overblown then why hasn't Watson or the team come out and say these are all nonsense reports and he isn't going anywhere?

He didn't say. He did discuss this topic in a podcast that you can check out if you like. I think he also said he'd be writing an article soon as well.

https://twitter.com/McClain_on_NFL/status/1352006296208347137?s=20


BTW ... the Miami Dolphins posted "Ohana" today which means "Family" in Hawaiian. It sure seems like the they are trying to reiterate Tua is their QB.

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/9Yz7a-rfhPlkzoprMTBCuL4UoSI=/0x0:603x405/1120x0/filters:focal(0x0:603x405):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22246000/EsHaZCHUYAAjJp4.png)

They are wise to do this but they are discussing Watson and if they land him then it's Aloha Tua.

Nothing surprises me, but you would think that there are enough QB desperate teams out there that at least one of them would outbid whatever the Dolphins put together in a trade offer for Watson.  But who knows.

I'm sure there would be but the No Trade Clause makes that irrelevant. Watson would never go to the Jets, let alone a Jets team that just gave up 5 first rounders for him.

Good point.  I forgot about his No Trade Clause. 

We assume he wouldn't go to the Jets from our perspective but who really knows? Some people just love those bright lights and big city.

Not sure if I've mentioned this but I do like Watson and think he is much better than Tua to this point. I just don't see "this" Dolphins team trading for him. Past ... heck yes. I think they will kick the tires just like they did the first pick last year but won't give up what they've built to get him. There is too much New England in this team to do that. As well ... if they start dumping all their picks then everything they are doing at the Senior bowl is a waste of time.

Yeah, Flores and company are not the type of team to make a splashy trade for a QB, but they will absolutely do their due diligence, knowing they are the overwhelming favorites to land him if he does get traded. I think a trade happens if the chips fall into place and Watson basically turns heel and threatens to sit out unless he is traded to a specific team. Once that happens, we don't have to send back too many picks or players, maybe even get to keep the #3 pick.

But like I said, the chips have to fall into place. If Watson is open to being traded to 6 different teams then there will be a bidding war and we are going to sit it out.

^^^^ I completely agree with that. If it does happen I'm guessing he will have a list of teams. I think teams like Chicago, Las Vegas, Denver, and Washington would get pretty silly for him. Or at least more silly than we would want to go.

Watson just stated that his preferred landing spots are New York (Jets) and Miami.

I don’t really know what I think about the possibility of Miami trading for him. Part of me thinks that it would be a mistake. He won’t come cheap, and the Dolphins should have a great draft to build around Tua. Watson though is a proven quarterback that can pit a team on his shoulders. He’s an automatic upgrade for almost any team.
But got God’s sake I do not want him in the AFC East if the Dolphins don’t trade for him.

So, great weather, no income taxes and Superbowl contention vs. the asshole of America and maxing out at 7 wins by 2022.

Yeah, tough call.

EDIT: The Texans probably leaked this to get a better offer from Miami but they won't get into a bidding war with a team that will have no draft picks or wins for the next few years. Let Watson rot in NY if he honestly wants to go there. If he hates bad management and losing, not the best choice.

It would be a shame to narrowly avoid having Trevor Lawrence playing for a division rival, only to wind up with Deshaun Watson there instead.

Looks like the Texans like Tua.  Like I said before, I'd offer them picks 18 and 36 along with Tua.  No more.  Then trade down from 3 to 5 and recoup some of those picks.

https://www.inquisitr.com/6459306/nfl-rumors-texans-tua-tagovailoa/

Yes, but Watson goes to them while a ton of first rounders goes to Houston. Combine that with normal Jets incompetence and he wouldn't be nearly as much of a threat if he went to the Pats instead.

Chris Mortensen reports that no matter who Houston hires as head coach, Watson still wants out. If he is even considering the Jets, then he is using his emotions over his brain and I don't think that will play well with Flores and our team.

I know that the organization has treated him terribly and he deserves to be angry, but you want someone who wants to win, not just leave because the owner isn't your best friend. He will never sniff the playoffs with the Jets. Still hoping that is just a fake rumor leaked by the Texans themselves.

Again, the Rams gave away a raft of picks for Goff, and they have been quite competitive since (including a trip to the SB).  PHI gave up 2 firsts, a second, a third, and a fourth for Wentz before they won the SB (which Wentz didn't even play in).

I think you guys are really overestimating how much lost picks "cripple" a team.  It isn't significantly worse than bad picks, which happen ALL THE TIME.

It's certainly possible but the Jets are a complete disaster and have virtually no talent on their team. You can't build an entire roster via free agency, you are going to have to hit on some draft picks to fill out the roster to be competitive. Hard to do that with no 1st rounder until, what, 2023? Not to mention that while they have a good amount of cap space, Watson will be taking a good chunk of that. There is just no scenario where they make the playoffs anytime soon if they pull this trade off.

One slight point of difference, if someone decides to pick up Watson not only are they going to potentially gift up a swag of high draft picks, they could also potentially cripple their own salary cap with his huge contract.

I just can't get my head around why Miami would even contemplate such an absurd thing after trading away Tannehill because of his salary, then Tunsil, Stills (and to a lesser extent Minkah) to get a huge haul of high draft picks to rebuild the team, and then blow the whole lot on Dehaun Watson. The guy is not the huge upgrade to be worth it, full stop.

Watson is definitely that big of an upgrade over Tua, at least the 2020 version of Tua. I am not giving up on the kid and I expect much better play in 2021, but we just went 10-6 and have a lot of young talent. Watson is the type of guy that makes us Superbowl contenders right now. Not saying we need to make the trade but it would absolutely improve us in the next few seasons.

It would not improve the Jets to the point of contention so that would be a stupid trade for them.

I can't disagree with the bolded bits strongly enough. As good as this seasons improvement was, the blowout to the Bills at the end of the season was a wake up call - we need improvements at wide receiver, running back, linebacker (and possibly safety) before we're a contender for the AFC East title, let alone anything else.

Watson at QB ain't going to fix any of that, if anything it makes the situation worse because the loss of picks and salary cap space robs us the ability to do it.

This article about the Texans' front office is BRUTAL.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/01/16/texans-chaos-deshaun-watson-unhappy-how-jack-easterby-kept-his-job

On a related note, I thought Watson was dumb for signing a big deal with HOU last summer, but this shows why I'm not an agent.  Had he refused to sign that deal:

1) he would have less money in his pocket today
2) he would be getting franchised right now
3) he would have much less leverage than he currently enjoys

In the NFL, you have to take the money. Injuries happen and careers are short, just look at Dak Prescott.

Watson was smart and that front office is a disgrace. They have 1 good player and treat him like shit.

Do you think the Dolphins would be better off or worse off if they traded Tua+3 firsts for Patrick Mahomes this offseason?

Interesting hypothetical. Mahomes has already achieved: Superbowl Championship (at least one), Superbowl MVP, NFL Player of the Year, NFL Offensive Player of the Year - that's rarified air already, in the realms of Rodgers, Manning, Brady in just three full seasons. That's truly Elite.

The way he marshals that Chiefs team, the fact that we have already seen how average they are without him. Admittedly it is a well coached roster with a fair amount of talent, and yeah, an explosive package called Tyreek Hill that we have absolutely nothing like.

Overall I think he would make our team better off, and yeah, I would at least think about it. Denver took the risk with Manning and that paid off. Tampa Bay ditto with Brady and that's looking good for them. They were both a lot older, but neither team had to give up any draft picks to get them either - on the flip side Denver were well and truly loaded with talent on the whole roster and Manning was the missing piece. I wouldn't have picked it at the beginning of the season, but Tampa is close to looking the same (I guess we will find out in two weeks). I think Miami has more significant deficiencies in their list in comparison.

Plus I still think it goes against the grain of what Flores and Grier are building, what they have done to date to put the team together.

The reason why I ask about Mahomes is: if you think MIA doesn't have enough supporting talent and they can't spare the picks or the cap hit, Mahomes doesn't solve any of those problems.  But I think most fans (and coaches, and GMs, and owners) would absolutely jump to get him on their team.

If you don't think Watson is a legitimate superstar, then fine; we can discuss that on the merits.  But if you don't think any QB is worth giving up cap space and picks... sorry, I can't agree.  The main reason you have draft picks is in the hope that every decade or two, you get a player as impactful as Watson.  MIA has thrown draft picks in the trash year after year due to poor selections, so I don't know that giving up draft picks for a proven player is much of a detriment.

Furthermore, even if we keep Tua and he turns out to be a superstar like Watson, he'll soon be taking up a big chunk of the cap for at least a decade, during which MIA would still be expected to compete.  Hell, KC just gave Mahomes the single biggest contract in pro sports, and they're back in the Super Bowl.

Yeah, which is why I agonized over my reply. Yes I would love Mahomes on my team. Yes he would make it better. Would it make it us an instant Superbowl contender for next year? Given our deficiencies, I doubt it, but we would be a bit closer. Then comes the $64 question - how much better would we be if we fix our holes with the draft picks (and salary cap used) and if Tua improves rapidly?


I think that's the main kicker for me. I just don't see him as being in the same league as Mahomes, Rodgers, or Manning/Brady in their prime. Throw in the cost by the way of draft picks and salary and to me it's not even worth thinking about.


Tua's on a four year rookie contract - if he blossoms into a bona fide superstar I don't think anyone will be complaining about the next contract. We've got him cheap until then.

Just to address an earlier point:

DEN's record in the five years before Peyton arrived:
7-9, 8-8, 8-8, 4-12, 8-8 (35-45)

TB's record in the five years before Brady arrived:
6-10, 9-7, 5-11, 5-11, 7-9 (32-48)

And just for good measure...
NO's record in the five years before Brees arrived:
7-9, 9-7, 8-8, 8-8, 3-13 (35-45)

For comparison, MIA's record over the last five seasons:
10-6, 6-10, 7-9, 5-11, 10-6 (38-42)

A great QB can immediately solve a lot of problems on your team.  You don't need to have a pre-built contender before they arrive.

Denver won a wildcard game against the Steelers the year before Peyton arrived: like I said they had a lot of pieces already in place, but Peyton was a hell of an upgrade on Tebow!

Tampa & New Orleans not only got new QBs, they got quality new head coaches that year too.  I do get your point though.

Minor correction there:
TB didn't get a new coach in TB. Bruce Arians went 7-9 in TB last year with Jameis Winston as his QB. 

Today it comes out that according to sources the Jets are NOT his first choice. I can't help but hear people like Joe Rose saying ... "Don't forget, Watson hasn't actually said anything about wanting to be traded etc." ... LMAO. He could stay with Houston never having said anything negative about them publicly with a lot of reporters with egg on their face.  

I feel like this is just Houston leaking stuff to jack up a potential trade package for him, especially from Miami. Yes, he hates management and doesn't want to lose but he probably doesn't want to go to an even worse team. Only a few logical landing spots and Miami is far and away #1.

To me, this is controlled leaking to the media by ownership and his own agent. If Watson had no intention of leaving Houston and wants to stay, he would've said so by now. There is smoke because there is a fire.

I would rather have an army of new weapons around Tua than Watson with no weapons to throw to.

If you can trade for Watson without giving up your #3 pick, you'll have a shot at getting some weapons for him to throw to.

The Texans have hired David Culley to be their head coach. He has been in the league since 1994 and basically has not had great success recently in his various roles. He has also never called plays but he appears to be a nice guy that people like.

Basically, a garbage hire from a garbage organization. This will probably make Watson want to leave even more now so we get a few more months of trade rumors. I still say trading Watson and finally doing a full rebuild is what this franchise needs but I don't care about them or their ability to make the right decision so *shoulder shrug*.

According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, Watson has officially requsted a trade. Not a surprise based off of the moves they have done recently to piss him off and disrespect him.

Now, we see how much he wants out of Houston and how much he wants to win. There are only a few legit suitors for him in terms of winning teams with cap space and draft capital. If he is willing to go to another joke franchise like the Jets then all bets are off and we shouldn't even bother bidding.

The Texans front office has stated on the record that they don't want to trade him and want to repair their relationship with him.  But it might be too late.   He might be so far gone that he might not give it his best on the field on purpose. 

Yeah, they say that and then they hire a GM and Head Coach without talking to him after promising they would. They didn't even interview the qualified candidate for HC that he recommended. He is the face of your franchise, by far your best player and a Top 5 QB in the league. You don't have to bow down to him but after screwing up your franchise with terrible decisions and more losing seasons ahead are guaranteed, you shouldn't do everything you can to piss him off.

No matter what happens, the Texans will have losing records for at least the next 2 seasons so it's up to DeShaun if he is okay with that. You only got so many years in this league due to injuries, does he want to be near 30 before he sees the playoffs again?

Come to Miami, bring JJ Watt with you.

I've been thinking of ways to get Watson into a Dolphins uniform and no matter what I do, I keep coming back to offering the Texans Tua plus the 18th and 35th picks in the draft.  Here's my trade hopes:

Dolphins send Tua and picks 18 and 35 to Houston for Watson

Dolphins swap first round picks with Cincy and receive the Bengals 2nd rounder (pick 37) and a late round pick.

Cincy drafts Sewell at #3.  

Dolphins draft Devonta Smith or Jamar Chase at #5 and Bama OT Alex Leatherwood at #37.

Cinci wants Sewell in the worst way...I think we could get #5, #38 and #69 for #3.

Aside from that I like that trade. You get Watson, then you take Devonta Smith at #5. With the two 2nd rounders still in pocket, Miami grabs an OT (Sam Cosmi, Leatherwood or Walker Little) and, if possible, Najee Harris to be Miami's lead RB.

Depending on how desperate Houston gets to make the deal, I might try to get them to accept Miami's later 2nd rounder (#50) instead of #36 in that package...

I'd prefer to have JJ's younger brother TJ, but TJ doesn't play for a completely moronic franchise, so no chance of getting him for a half-eaten happy meal.

It's more than just Cincy's desire for Sewell, it's a bunch of other team's desire for a QB at #3. It really is the most valuable pick in the draft because it's the highest pick that can be traded since the Jags and Jets are set in stone and taking QBs despite whatever nonsense you hear from the media. We have several trading partners in the Top 10 alone for teams who need QBs, we can move back to 8th and get a boatload of picks and still drfat one of the 3 best WRs.

I hear you on that but if they trade DeShaun then the rebuild is on and they will cut Watt for salary cap reasons and probably his own desires to play for a winner. We would be a perfect landing spot for him, he can still play and is a great teammate and mentor for our young guys. It's a perfect match.

^^^ Can't argue with that...even an older JJ Watt could be an excellent asset for the defense.

Sorry, but I don't want Watson on the Dolphins.  The Dolphins will have to give up too much, and I don't want a QB that wants to drive the bus and make demands about who the GM and Coach will be.  The Texans never should have commented to him that he would have a say in the matter to begin with.

Not to mention I don't understand the rush to give up on Tua after 9 games, when so many on here were begging to be able to draft him only a year ago.  In 9 games Tua did exactly want the coaches wanted him to do; went 6-3, 11 TD's 5 Int's, 1814 passing yards, and a 64 % completion ratio (186/290).  BTW what did Watson do his first season? Played in 7 games, going 3-3, 19 TD's 8 Int's, 1699 passing yds, and a 62% completion ratio (126/204).  Not all that much different than Tua.

I think the idea of MIA getting Watson without having to return Houston's own #3 pick is a pipe dream, and many of you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I am significantly more interested in this trade than I would have been last offseason, because at this point I am unconvinced that Flores will be able to develop Tua into a franchise QB.  If MIA does trade for Watson, I feel confident that Flores will no longer be pulling this "bench the QB after 3 bad quarters" nonsense, and if he does, he will be ridden out of town on a rail.

It's not that black and white. He never demanded he have a say over who the coach and GM will be, but any smart franchise consults with their star QB over a new head coach. They never give them final say but it's smart business to hear the player out. They PROMISED Watson he would be involved in the hiring of a new HC and GM. He didn't need to be involve din the GM so that was a stupid promise but it's okay because they broke both promises anyway. Deshaun recommended a qualified candidate for HC and they didn't even interview him but they interviewed Josh McCown and hired a terrible candidate instead.

As far as Tua goes, I will not be disappointed if he is our Week 1 starter, but there is no comparison right now between the two. Watson is an MVP player right now whereas Tua can develop into one. If you want to win a Superbowl in the next year or two, Watson is the better guy for that, but Tua can as well.

You're probably right, but Tua was the 5th overall pick in 2020 and still has lots of value, so I don't think the team wants to offer Tua, the 3rd pick and 4 other 1st rounders when there may not be that many suitors. The media leaks about the Jets are nonsense, he is not going to a 2 win team with no talent, no draft picks and bad ownership. He is literally in that position right now, why go even worse?

I think it's possible Deshaun is traded for below market value but it's still going to cost. I just feel that Tua and the #3 pick is definitely more valuable than The Jets at #2 and #23. Darnold is trash, they'll throw him into the trade offer but they couldn't even get a 5th rounder for him right now if they tried. Tua would go for a 1st if he was available.

FWIW ... Peter King said this morning that Watson would start for Houston next year. Thursday, April 29 is draft day so it has to happen prior to that.

 

HOU has had some of the most pathetic and incompetent management over the last few years, and they appear to only be getting worse.  Watson is 100% justified in wanting to leave.

I think that under the circumstances, Watson should go for something like 1 known 2021 first and 3 future firsts.  I think MIA would be able to get him with Tua + #3 + #18.

That's probably what it will take, I just like the idea of moving back to 5 or 8 and getting a bunch more picks and then offering half of them to Houston instead. Basically, getting greedy like we did with the Texans draft watch all season.

What a shitshow for Houston. They either keep their QB and go 4-12 again and then 4-12 again and then maybe 6-10 after that or they trade him for below market value.

I don't see many talking heads talking about less than 3 first rounders and a couple of 2s for him.

Sure, but the talking heads say stuff just to get ratings and website traffic. Todd McShay yesterday said Watson is barely an upgrade over Sam Darnold, these aren't serious people.

His true market value is many 1sts and 2nd rounders. His market value with a no trade clause and a dumb franchise on one end of the bargaining table? It really is unknown.

If he is a good as some of you guys think he is then he is worth 3 first rounders and then some.

...  recently, we saw the Seattle Seahawks just last year give up two first-round picks and safety Bradley McDouglas to the New York Jets for safety Jamal Adams and a fourth-round selection.

I'd guess a franchise QB is worth much more than a stud safety.

It won't be that bad of a deal because Houston doesn't have to trade him. They are on the hook for a lot of money this year already.

Yes, but he has a no trade clause so there is no "free market" in this trade. That changes everything. If all 32 teams were able to make a bid, he would absolutely go for 3 1st and 3 2nd rounders, perhaps more. With a VERY limited market? They aren't going to get what he is worth. Any trading partner will have to have:

1) A winning record
2) Lots of draft and player capital
3) Cap space to absorb the contract

He isn't going to the Jets or any other team picking in the Top 10. He obviously hates ownership right now but not enough to go to a 5 win Detroit, Denver or Carolina team. He is already on a team that sucks, he doesn't want to go to another one. I mean, living in Detroit AND losing? That's the 8th Circle of Hell.

Gotta give Detroit the 9th circle.  It's fucking freezing in that city like it is in the 9th circle.  

Back to the issue at hand.  If Houston wants to get greedy and demand 3 1sts, I'm out.  I don't give up that much capital if I'm Chris Greer.

I don't disagree that Houston has been managed terribly, but you know what?  They did it FOR WATSON.  Gave up a ton of picks for a left tackle to protect Watson.  Then they gave Watson an insane contract worth an avg salary of $39M per year before he has accomplished even getting to the SB.  Actual SB winners Brady & Brees paid $25M, Rodgers paid $33.5M.  Now Mahomes gets $45M but he is a young talent that has actual been in the SB and is worth it.  Houston is in cap hell partly because of Watson.  Now Watson wants to cry about what was done for HIS benefit?  He's WAY overrated, otherwise he would have led his team to more than 4 victories this year.  Miami had fewer playmakers on offense yet they succeeded. It would be absolutely insane to give up a multitude of picks, $30M a year in cap space, and a possible future HOF QB to get a cry baby.

You bring up some good points. I mean ... Fitz even won 5 games with back ups and practice squad guys after getting blown out in the first quarter of last season ... haha. Not in reference to Watson per se but I've heard talking heads say many time offensive stat leaders are on bad team because they are always paying catch up.  

I'm not sure how giving up a top three WR for nothing helps Watson, nor do I see how letting Clowney go for peanuts accomplishes the same.

This is a bizarre way to measure value, given the nature of QB contracts and how much they inflate year-to-year even for slightly-above-average players.  Watson was given the second richest QB contract on record when he received it, which is pretty reasonable in context.  If you look at the average-per-year for the top QB contracts each offseason:

2020- Mahomes ($45M), Watson ($39M), K.Cousins ($33M), Tannehill ($29.5M)
2019- R.Wilson ($35M), Big Ben ($34M), Goff ($33.5M), Wentz ($32M)
2018- Rodgers ($33.5M), M.Ryan ($30M), Garoppolo ($27.5M), A.Smith ($23.5M)
2017- Stafford ($27M), Carr ($25M)

...Watson's contract looks pretty reasonable and appropriate.

Furthermore, HOU didn't even get cap relief when they traded away Hopkins!  They took on David Johnson's monster contract in the trade.

Aaron Rodgers started every game for a 6 win Packers team two years ago.  Do you have a similar opinion of him?

Yeah, but the talking heads always overvalue players compared to what the actual deal becomes.  Talking heads said AZ wouldn’t accept anything less than a 1st rounder for Murray.  When was the last time a team signed another teams franchise tag player?

I don't think he will be traded but if he is it will be to a team not mentioned. Adam Schefter or someone like that said today that he wouldn't reject very many teams.

I suppose that just like anything else, the value of something is ultimately defined as  whatever someone is willing to pay. 

If that's the case then we shouldn't make a serious run at him due to the bidding being high. If he just wants out, then maybe the godawful Jets really are a potential destination. I just figured he would value winning over his hatred of management. Hope it is settled relatively quick so we have time to bid our #3 pick to whichever teams need a QB and lost out on Watson and Stafford.

The Texans GM "reiterated their commitment to Deshaun and have no interest in trading the player". Nonsense GM speak, a robot could've delivered it. They are going to trade him, their main concern is now to convince him to expand his list of teams he will go to so they can get a better package in return.

As usual your counter points are so laughable, and totally unrelated that I won't wast my time with you.

If I understand you correctly:

1) you believe Watson is grossly overpaid relative to his production
2) you think it's not only wrong to claim otherwise, but outright laughable

I imagine you have a hard time understanding why an enormous portion of sports media is currently focused on where this excessively overpaid and underaccomplished player might land, or indeed, why any team is interested in taking on his bloated contract in the first place.

There is, indeed, a laughable position in this thread.

Jimmy Johnson says Texans shouldn’t trade Deshaun Watson — even for a Herschel Walker-type deal.

“If I was David Culley I’d go knock on his door,” Johnson told ESPN about how the new Texans head coach should handle the Watson fiasco, via Pro Football Talk. “I would talk to him and I’d do whatever it takes, I’d put my ego aside, I’d say, ‘The best thing for you is to stay right here.’ Do whatever it takes. Do not lose that player.

“They’re not going to win any games if they don’t have a quarterback,” Johnson said. “Do whatever it takes. Make concessions. Keep that quarterback.”

Totally understandable position to have, Top 5 QBs are not easy to come by, but they have mangled their franchise so badly that they need a Dolphins level rebuild. Trading Watson for a new franchise QB like Tua plus draft picks is their best bet. Shit, take our #3 pick and trade that for even more picks. They have no salary cap or draft picks, keeping Watson will not push them past 6 wins for a few years. Help is not on the way if they keep him.

The Athletic's Joseph Person said NFL insiders "think the Texans will want three first-round picks, or two first-rounders and an established player" in exchange for Deshaun Watson. 

So, Tua, the #3 and #18 pick.  I still would want to trade the #3 pick down a few spots to pick up more but if the "insiders" know what they're talking about then we are favorites as long as Watson doesn't want to go to a loser just to get out.

I'm starting to change my mind on this. If they would take Tua, the #3 and next year's number 1, I would do it. That would still give the Dolphins their #18 from this year to get a quality player in this draft. At first I thought the asking price would be too much but if they will do that trade, that seems reasonable especially since that #3 pick we got from them anyway. The more I think about it, the more I think Deshaun and whomever we get in the draft even at #18 could be all we need to get into the playoffs next year. Giving up next year's #1 for that would be worth it.

Are you happy with just making the playoffs or would you rather just barely make the playoffs next year, then be in the thick of it for the Super Bowl in 2023?

If giving up multiple first rounders plus Tua is what it will cost, I will pass.  If Houston settles for the #18 and the #35 pick, I'll pull the trigger.

Once you make the playoffs then anything can happen. It's not like those #1 picks are the only picks we have, we still have others both this year and next year to continue to build. The way I look at it Watson is an upgrade over Tua even if Tua turns out as well as I think he could turn out. He'll be a huge upgrade if Tua doesn't improve by leaps and bounds next year. Add the #18 pick to that and I think you have a playoff caliber team next year and then there's the rest of the draft, free agency, continued improvement from young players, etc. With Watson your QB questions are over and you can continue to work on filling in all those other pieces around him. Unfortunately with Tua, I don't feel that way. We could still be looking at drafting a QB again next year if Tua doesn't work out.

I'm starting to feel like Miami lucked into this position the same way that Spider thought the Dolphins lucked into being able to still draft Tua after falling to #5. Getting the #3 pick from Houston was a gift from the NFL gods that makes getting a proven franchise QB a possibility. You gotta go for it. To be clear I don't think that's a bad deal for Houston either. They are starting over. They can take a flyer on Tua and see what happens and get 2 extra #1's in the process. Sure they lose their franchise QB, but he didn't help them much this year. They have a lot of rebuilding left to do and Tua fits in with that for them. I'm not sure he still fits in with Miami's plans to be in the playoffs next year and with just missing out this year if they don't make it in next year, it will be a huge disappointment.

Let's say MIA had to give up Tua + Austin Jackson + Noah Igbinoghene.  Would you make the trade then?

Again, I think you guys are really overestimating the impact of first round picks.  First round picks fail all the time.  If Watson came to Miami and made the Pro Bowl for the next 4 years, I guarantee no one would even remember what those picks were.  (Without looking it up: who did NO select with the picks MIA gave them for Ricky?  How about DEN with the picks given for Brandon Marshall?)

I mean, seriously:  MIA spent the #18 overall pick on a left tackle last draft, and here we are today with the Dolphins getting ready to spend the #3 overall pick on another left tackle.  How can you guys consider these picks to have so much value if MIA is trying to clean up messes THE SAME FRONT OFFICE made less than a year ago?

Miami would have to give up a pro bowl type player or a first and second rounder to start. Try 2 firsts, 2 seconds, Xavier Howard, and someone else. Don't include X then you would need to add another 1st and possible 2nd to the deal. At least that's what they are saying on the Joe Rose show as a starting point. BTW ... Joe said he doesn't see the Dolphins being a player in the Watson game and the way he said it seems like he has direct knowledge.

I think many fans thought what the Rams paid was what Watson would garner but all they did was raise the price on Watson.

Stafford = Goff (former first round), two 1st rounders, 3rd
----Stafford was 12th last year while Goff was ranked 19th

Watson who was ranked 4th will get much more.

BTW ... anyone but me find it funny that Stafford said he'd play for anyone but the Patriots? hahahah

didn't the saints go onto win a superbowl within a few years of that trade .. and the dolphins went 1-15 ?

as far as the stafford trade .. the lions taking goff was why they got so much draft compensation .. it wasn't an asset .. taking goff was doing LA a favor to eat salary otherwise what were they gonna do with a QB they didn't want eating up a whole chunk of salary cap space. So when looking at that trade it isn't .. "they got all those picks PLUS goff" .. it's "they got all those picks cause they took on goff to help LA"

Exactly, the Lions only got that second 1st rounder because they took on Goff's contract, otherwise a deal couldn't be made under the salary cap. They basically bought a 1st rounder.

It was odd though that the Lions allegedly received an offer from the Panthers for the #8 pick and a few odds and ends for Stafford. I think that's much better than a couple of late 1st rounders. That's what people need to factor in with trade offers, we can offer Tua and the #3 pick which is basically the equivalent of 4 late 1st rounders and our picks are right now, who knows what a 2023 1st rounder will be?

Of course HOU would not take that offer.  My point is that people are so worried about these incredibly valuable first round draft picks, and yet two of those picks MIA made less than a year ago are so devoid of value that any of us would throw them in without a second thought, AND the Texans wouldn't even consider them meaningful additions.

To be fair, Tua is worth more than Goff right now, both because of his rookie contract and because there is a perception that Goff has hit his ceiling.

Sorry ... my bad. I completely agree with you.

Especially for Houston which is at the bottom of the league right now. Plenty of time for him to grow into the position.

To be clear: after MIA gave NO two firsts for Ricky, the Saints went 9-7, 8-8, 8-8, and 3-13.  Then Nick Saban decided Daunte Culpepper was a better QB than Drew Brees, and we all know what happened from there.

One of those picks was packaged with other picks and used to trade up and draft a DT at #6 overall in 2003.  He was out of the league by 2007.  The 2002 pick was used on Charles Grant, who spent the beginning of the Saints' Super Bowl season on a 4-game PED suspension, and was on injured reserve for their playoff run.

Picks are all relative. We've done seemingly well with our picks for Laremy Tunsil but the picks we got for Minkah did not come close to equating what we lost.

There's definitely a point to be made that a 1st round pick doesn't mean you just drafted a Pro Bowler. That being said, we have the #3 pick and that is insanely valuable, whether to use on a player or trade down for more picks. People can't just say that our 1st rounder is similar to the Redskins 1st rounder, it's much more valuable.

I'm not keen to give up the #3 pick, Tua and a ton more. If that is the price, walk away. We can definitely part with the #18 pick and future 1st rounders since God willing those will be at the end of the first round, but #3, Tua and #18 is a better package than a middle of the road team offering 6 first rounders since odds are those won't be as high as the ones we are offering right now.

Too bad we will be talking about this for another month before we can even start negotiations.

Oddsmakers have dropped Miami to 4th.

Deshaun Watson Trade Odds
The New York Jets are now considered the favorites to land Watson at +230, per odds from FanDuel Sportsbook Colorado. This represents a significant change, as Houston (+150) was still considered the favorite for Watson as of Jan. 28. The Texans have since fallen to +260, giving them the second-best odds.
Following the top two, the Carolina Panthers have surged up to the third-best odds to land Watson at +300. Carolina wasn't even in the top nine teams in the opening odds to land Watson, so the Panthers are certainly a team to watch now.
As for the rest of the bunch, the Miami Dolphins have fallen to have the fourth-best odds at +700, the San Francisco 49ers are available at +850, the Denver Broncos have +1000 odds and the New England Patriots are available at +1200.
Expect these odds to continue changing as the offseason progresses, but for now, it seems Robert Saleh and the Jets are the favorites to land Deshaun Watson.

I just don't get the Jets being involved, let alone favorites. They are horrible and have no talent on the roster, a Watson trade removes more avenues for acquiring talent, draft wise and his contract. If Watson is fine with going to the 2nd worst team in the league, then fine but he is making that decision based off of hating ownership, not winning football games.

odds aren't set based on likelihood of an event .. odds are set so that the gambling halls can sit on a 50/50 split of bets as much as possible and make their money off of the vig without taking a beating either way. So they reflect popular opinion which in this type of case is worthless

I agree.

My problem with this whole discussion is that I think it's crazy to give up on a QB after half a season.  I mean I could understand giving up if the player exhibited that he was terrible, but Tua wasn't.  If not for the injury Tua probably would have went #1 in the draft.  If a team can't give a QB two full seasons to develop then they have absolutely no business drafting a QB EVER.  And for the record I was in favor of drafting Herbert over Tua.

I'm not sure the current coaching staff has any business drafting a QB ever, which is exactly why I'm in favor of this deal.

You also have to take in context what we gave up isn't what Pittsburgh got either.

Why is this? The Rams and Lions trade is announced?

I don't know, but I kept seeing about how Watson can't be traded until March. New league year rule for recently signed extensions?

It won't be official until then but they can work details until then. Many people don't see Houston dealing until they feel they've exhausted all measures which may include forcing him to hold out. It actually sounds like they may be putting out a starting point for negotiations.


John McClain
@McClain_on_NFL
·
Jan 31
The Rams-Lions trade will have nothing to do with a Watson trade if the Texans do it. They'll want 2 ones, 2 twos and 2 young defensive starters, at the least. Watson, 25, under contract, great QB, team leader, beloved by fans, pillar of the community. Start with the Jets.

I can't remember who said it but I heard a talking head yesterday discussing Watson. He brought up the fact that when Watson had receivers and a menacing defense he still didn't lead them to any where and we don't have the weapons he had. His point was being ... don't mortgage the franchise on someone who hasn't proven anything more than he's good at gaining stats. We are in a pretty good position if we are patient. The new concept of immediate gratification isn't always the best route to go.

I've been leaning towards keeping Tua and the picks the past few days, just not happy with the price and I really don't want someone who doesn't prioritize winning. So, if the Jets are honestly on the table, no thank you. That #3 pick is just so valuable, with it you get an almost guaranteed Pro Bowl player or drop down a few spots and get more picks.

If this were Tua's 2nd year then I would be more in but 10 games after no offseason and coming off of surgery? Nowhere near enough time to evaluate. Plus, Flores chose winning now over development a few times this season because the playoffs were close. Won't be doing that again I would imagine.

Agree with CF .. don't trade for watson .. let the texans deal with their drama and keep getting more assets .. even trent dilfer won a superbowl.. Tua's gonna be better than Trent fucking Dilfer

Just for context, here are the last ten #3 picks, along with their pro awards:

2020- Jeff Okudah, DET (none)
2019- Quinnen Williams, NYJ (none)
2018- Sam Darnold, NYJ (none)
2017- Solomon Thomas, SF (none)
2016- Joey Bosa, SD (DROY, 3x Pro Bowl, 1x All-Pro)
2015- Dante Fowler, JAX (none)
2014- Blake Bortles, JAX (none)
2013- no comment necessary
2012- Trent Richardson, CLE (none)
2011- Marcell Dareus, BUF (2x Pro Bowl, 1x All-Pro)

Suffice it to say that even the #3 pick is very far from a sure thing.  Watson has already accomplished more than most of this list combined.

2013? What happened in 201.....*has seizure from relapsed trauma*

The #3 pick this year is insanely valuable because of 3 outcomes. 1) Draft Sewell who is a once a decade O-Line prospect 2) Draft Chase or Smith and elevate the passing game 3) Drop down a few spots and accumulate more picks so some QB needy team can draft the next Sam Darnold at 3. Not as glamorous but could be better for the team overall to fill out some depth

There are obviously years where the draft talent sucks or the 84th best prospect in the draft goes 3rd just because he is a QB, but this is a very good draft and our pick is worth a lot.

If you trade down with Cincy and end up at 5, one of the first two options will still happen. 

That being said, if I'm Greer, I drop out at this point.  The Raiders are now in trade talks with the Texans for Watson and are willing to package multiple first round picks plus Derek Carr to get him.  The irony is that if this trade goes through,  Carr will be playing for the team his big brother got ruined by.

I think the Raiders are trying to trade Carr anywhere and using those picks for Watson, not throwing in Carr as a prize. Texans probably have no interest in him because they won't be contending anytime soon.

I think we are just going to place a phone call and bow out too, the more teams that are actually involved, the greater likelihood some team will go way too far with compensation. Raiders are a decent destination if you are Watson, they are a middle of the pack team that will improve with his play.

I would be fine with trading back to Carolina at 8 if they pay enough. We won't get our top WR choice but we will get our 2nd or 3rd choice and that is still a major improvement over what we have now. If no one bites, then trade with Cincy.

Or why not do both and pick up a slew of picks?

Very possible too, but as long as it is worth it. I don't want to go from 3 to 8 for just a 2022 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

Ok, I've been thinking about this and have had this epiphany. If this were just a straight up man for man trade, then sure, do it. But I want the Dolphins to keep these first round draft picks. They're just too valuable. So no, don't do it.

I was going to mention this interview with Jimmy Johnson from the Joe Rose show but some writer posted the interview in an article without giving credit to where it had actually come from. I see this done all the time and it seems a bit disingenuous to me. Anyway it keeps me from having to type out the jest of it ... hahaha ...

 “I think Tua is a good player,” Johnson told WQAM on Tuesday. “I like him. He made some good plays. He can throw the football. He’s got a little bit of mobility. He’s a young kid. As he matures and as he gets better and as you give him a better supporting cast with all those draft picks, he’ll be a good player. I like him. ... It takes time. My buddy Terry Bradshaw didn’t smell the end zone until his fourth or fifth year.”

Johnson also weighed in on the Deshaun Watson-Houston Texans debacle.

“He’s more valuable than what Herschel Walker was,” said Johnson. “They’ve got to change the culture in Houston. Obviously, people weren’t happy with [DeAndre] Hopkins being traded to Arizona. I’m sure Watson wasn’t either. He’s one of the best receivers in the entire league. You don’t get rid of superstars. They’re hard to find. Watson, at his age, and especially with the contract when you don’t have the deferred money, he’s worth more than in any other trade I’ve ever seen.

“My advice to [the Texans] is you knock on [Watson’s] door, have a couple beers, and say, ‘Hey, how can we work this out?’ And if he says no, you go back the next day and knock on his door and say, ‘How can we work this out? I do believe if you put it on Watson and say, ‘What do you want?’ Put it on him and if he says, ‘I need this,’ you say OK let’s work together and get this done. I wouldn’t let him go. They’ve got no shot if they let him go.”

Jimmy Johnson's problem is that he is using logic, the Houston front office doesn't use logic. The whole team is basically run by a Life Coach. In theory, he is correct that the best course of action would be to stick with DeShaun and see if it works out. Problem is, they just lied to him and pissed him off again by not having him involved in the GM and HC searches. They didn't even call the very qualified guy that Watson recommended.

These are not old problems, they just happened. The only thing left undecided is will Watson go to a less desirable team just to leave or will the Texans call his bluff and keep him if a team like Miami doesn't have the best offer.

If it were only that they lied to him, that would be one thing.

But the Texans hired an outside firm to conduct a GM search, then - after receiving their recommendations - completely ignored them to hire the life coach's former coworker who was never even submitted for evaluation to the the scouting firm.

Clowns of the earth.

Jimmy Johnson laid out a perfect example of why I don’t want to sacrifice much to get Watson.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/jimmy-johnson-names-most-talented-quarterback-he-s-ever-seen/ar-BB1dmFX1?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

“But it’s the supporting cast,” Johnson concluded. “I don’t care who your quarterback is. Matthew Stafford could have won a bunch of Super Bowls if he’d had the right supporting cast. You look at Aaron Rodgers. He’s as talented any quarterback in the league right now but (Green Bay) has come up short. People made a lot of the fact that when I coached the Cowboys we had “the triplets”—Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smith. They overlook the fact that we were No. 1 in the NFL in total defense. But it’s really a team game. I don’t care how talented your quarterback is.”

They are villains, you almost wish they would trade Watson for a 4th rounder to the Giants just to laugh at them more.

From a person who has successfully dealt with personnel I thought Scott Pioli said some interesting things today in regards to Tua.

“From a personnel standpoint, as any outsider, I don’t think you can sit here and have a real opinion on that because the only people that know what kind of progress that Tua made this year and how good he is on a day-to-day basis and how good he’s going to be in the pro system, in their system (are the Dolphins)," Pioli said Friday. "That was the (Dolphins') first pick overall last year. They obviously liked a lot of things about him.

Reports this morning are that Watson is not interested in the Jets but is "intrigued" by the Niners and Broncos. Niners have no cap space so even if they dump Jimmy G, which they would have to since he wouldn't be their QB, they would probably only barely be able to afford Watson while letting ey guys walk in free agency. Combine that with a tough division and it just doesn't make much sense as a desired landing spot for him.

Broncos.......only if he REALLY wants out of Houston. They are not a good team and while he would definitely improve them, the Chiefs are still the class of that division and the Chargers will only get better. I can see the Chargers winning 10 games next year now that their idiot coach is gone and won't cost them every close game with his decision making. Raiders are good for 7-9 wins as well.

But now that Watt is gone, it appears the rebuild is on and Houston will be more motivated to move him but I'm 99% sure at this point he won't be a Dolphin. Only real way was him forcing Houston's hand to accept our small offer but that seems unlikely now.

More word that the Broncos are very interested and are willing to pay for Watson. They do have some young talent but that will do Deshaun no good if they go to Houston. I would say Deshaun is 99% dead in the water for us so unless something changes in the next 2 weeks, might as well move this to the Around the NFL forum.

I think Bronco's ownership has had enough of John Elways QB picking; I can understand them wanting to bring in a proven talent.  The only thing Elway did right was bring in a proven talent, Peyton Manning.

It's hard to pick a franchise QB from where they were drafting and good QBs rarely become free agents. Not impossible but certainly harder than with a Top 5 pick. Their options this year are to trade up for one or trade for Watson. Otherwise, Drew Lock is their guy.

I would be tempted to say just the opposite. Most teams simply do not have the capital to get Deshaun Watson from the Texans. The problem is the Texans do not want Deshaun Watson. At some point the Texans are going to have to lower their demands for Watson's services and the only question now is when that will be. If this goes all the way up to a few days before the draft, I think it's at that time that Miami could be a player for Watson especially if Miami picks up a couple more pieces by trading down a few spots in the draft. If that happens, it will be very interesting to see just how high Miami is willing to go to get Watson. They are happy with Tua, but just happy. Not ecstatic. They would be ecstatic to get Watson. The only question is going to be the price tag and the longer this goes the price tag is going to start looking better and better.

Every team has the capital if they are willing to not draft a 1st rounder for 3-4 years. Granted, not one team can really match what we can offer for 2021 but there are teams who will give up a ridiculous amount for him.

If we offered Tua, the #3 and #18 picks, what would the equivalent to that be? 6 1st rounders? I can see some team coming close to that and hoping it works out.

It's not just about being able to give up the picks it's also about being able to fit Watson on your roster. Most teams have a QB already. Most of the others know who their QB is going to be this year anyway. There's only a handful that still don't know who the QB is going to be and some of those are looking at the draft to figure that out, they aren't going to give up several 1st rounders for him when they can just give up one one, it's just not going to happen. Everyone wants Watson, but most teams know you can't blow up your team to get him. The Dolphins are one of the few teams that could get Watson without blowing up the team. The Dolphins know this and so do the Texans. The question is who blinks first? The Dolphins, the Texans or one of the few others who would be willing to blow up their team?

If that article I posted about Howard is true, I would throw him into the trade and keep our 18th pick. No offer is better than Tua, the #3 pick and Howard.

That being said, I kinda moved on from Watson and think we might be better with a full offseason from Tua and adding some weapons for him.

i'm still with no on this .. draft weapons for tua and build through the draft and keep improving

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/are-panthers-clearing-so-much-cap-room-to-make-a-run-at-deshaun-watson-heres-what-carolinas-cleared-so-far/

Panthers are clearing a lot of cap space in a hurry, and Bridgewater has unfollowed the team on the weekend - looks like they are going to have a big try at a big name for QB, unless it's Rodgers or Wilson, you would have to think it's Watson.

While they would certainly be better with Watson, they aren't exactly loaded with talent right now. So, trading away draft picks and assets is going to hurt their chances at being a contender. I can't think of any team like us that could absorb the trade cost and not necessarily feel it.

It's been confirmed that Watson would waive his no trade clause only for the Jets, Dolphins, and Panthers. 

Looks like it's going to be a bidding war, which I would rather not see the Dolphins get involved in.

"I will only go to a playoff contender with a bright future or the worst team in existence with no draft picks." That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and what the hell are the Panthers doing there either? This smells like a behind the scenes agreement between Watson and the Texans to include more teams for a bidding war so Miami pays more for his services, he would be the biggest idiot in the league if he goes to the Jets. If he wants to play for a team that won't be in the playoffs before his contract expires and bad ownership, just stay where you are.

I am fully committed to Tua and keeping our good draft picks/cap space at this point. Let the Jets have him so they could go an "exciting" 4-12.

The Jets play in New York City.

Including endorsement deals, Watson will make FAR MORE MONEY playing for the Jets than he will playing for any team not named the Giants or Cowboys, who I presume were not included as destinations.  (Keep in mind Watson will be leaving the 3rd largest city in the nation.) It's silly to dismiss that as a factor.

It is not the size of city that matters, it is the size of the fan base.  LA is the second largest city in the country, but nobody is going crazy trying to sign Rams players to national endorsement deals.  Dallas, NEP, Steelers, Patriots, Denver.....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/240028/facebook-fans-of-national-football-league-teams/

No, it is not... especially in a league with a hard salary cap like the NFL.

The Chiefs are in the bottom half of the league in fanbase size, and yet Mahomes has quite a few high profile national endorsements.  The major difference is in the local/regional endorsements, and Big Ben isn't going to get regional endorsements in another team's city, no matter how many fans the Steelers have nationwide.

They didn't say "only".

On Monday, sources told Offsides with Marc Ryan that while the list may not be finalized and the situation remains fluid, there are three teams that Watson has expressed willingness to approve a trade to: the New York Jets, the Miami Dolphins, and the Carolina Panthers.

NY has very high income taxes and the cost of living is also insane. He would have to get millions more in endorsement deals in NYC that he wouldn't get in major market Miami to make up for it. That seems very unlikely considering the Jets are terrible and will remain terrible for the next few seasons.

Plus, where would youn rather live, Miami or crime ridden NYC that doesn't even open due to lockdowns? Since "2 weeks to flatten the curve" turned into what we have now, it's not right to assume this will change in NYC any time soon. Just a ton of factors for why Miami is a better destination, I won't believe he is seriously considering the Jets until he wears an ugly green jersey and goes 4-12.

In other words the other 29 teams either have no interest in him, or don't have the assets to trade/or cap space available to accommodate him on the roster.  I don't think there is going to be a bidding war at all, the Dolphins are not interested at all, and any other team is looking to get him as cheap as possible (otherwise they can just stink for another year and hope for a high draft pick next year).  Watson really put himself in a corner with his public actions.

It's not that there is no interest in him, he has no interest in them, at least for now. Assuming we are offering Tua, the 3 and 18, no other team can touch that because this jumpstarts their rebuild right now. Anything else the other teams offer is mainly for the future. The Jets offering their #2 pick will be used for a QB, but then that's it for now. We are offering a franchise QB in Tua and the #3 pick. There is no comparison. 6 first rounders aren't the same as our offer because who knows what 2024 will bring?

I am still all for keeping Tua but it's worth discussing until we know one way or the other.

We've seen the difference that Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, or Tom Brady make on a football team.  Yeah, HOU was bad this year, but the idea that the Jets will be a perennial failure with Watson is wishful thinking.  Watson would indeed get millions more in endorsements playing for the Jets.

You're presuming that Watson shares your political leanings and thinks that a state that has remained Fully Open For Business during COVID is a good thing.  That might be an accurate presumption for someone like Drew Brees or Nick Bosa, but given that Watson was one of the leading voices in the NFL to speak out after George Floyd's death (https://www.houstontexans.com/news/deshaun-watson-nfl-players-ask-what-if-i-was-george-floyd), he might have a different opinion than you expect.

Although I must say that "What player would want to go to crime-ridden, high tax New York City?" is a pretty innovative insight on player movement.  NY and LA teams must have a hard time attracting free agents, what with their expensive cost of living!

The Jets have been bad for awhile because they have bad ownership with an insane internal policy of not firing coaches midseason no matter how bad they are. They consistently hire the wrong people for the job. They have very little talent and if they trade for Watson, they will have a hard time replenishing their talent pool within the draft seeing as they will be without 1s and 2s for a bit. So, it's not wishful thinking that they will be bad for years to come, it's quite logical. The Jets just simply suck and that's good for us.

As far as NY goes, I live here and it is a shithole. It isn't what it once was so the lure of the Big Apple is gone. What NYC excelled at was restaurants and theaters and arts and they are all closed, some for good. That's why I bring it up, not for any political reason. Miami is open and while their pizza is absolute shit, I'm sure DeShaun will enjoy the nightlife more, not to mention the beaches and maybe the weather. Don't know if he is a cold weather guy or not. Don't look at this from a political point of view, look at it from a factual POV. Florida is open so a wealthy man like DeShaun can enjoy it. He cannot enjoy NY as much as he would be able to in 2019 and there is no real end in sight and that is probably a factor for him. After all, what good is tons of money and fame if you are stuck in your $4 Million apartment watching Netflix?

The Jets have the same ownership they had when Rex Ryan took them to back-to-back conference title games.  Every team is one good head coach + one good QB away from contending.  (And sometimes you don't even need both; Rex Ryan never had a good QB and Aaron Rodgers didn't have a good coach.)

I also don't agree that there is "no real end in sight" for the lockdowns.  There should be enough vaccines for everyone who wants one - even in NYC - before the preseason starts.

I'm ok with keeping Tua and continuing on, but I'd rather have Watson. I wouldn't mortgage the future for him, but Tua the #3 pick and another 1st round maybe next year would be a steal in my opinion. It might take Tua, #3 and the #18 and I don't like that as much but I'd have to still consider that as well. Anything more then that, they can keep Watson and I'll take my chances with Tua.

I certainly hope that the end is near in terms of lockdowns, but you have to forgive me for being skeptical considering all that has occured. Let's just all hope it is over soon and people are healthy.

Rex Ryan feels like 90 years ago now. His love of Sanchez might have cost them a Superbowl.

I think you are completely wrong.  If Watson is interested in the Jets, probably a worse franchise than Texas, then he would be interested in ANY team that would consider him at this point.

ESPN is reporting that Houston is avodiing calls about Watson while DeShaun is digging in. So basically, despite being an asshole to him for no reason, Houston wants him to stay and thinks they can work things out.

It is an eternity until the season starts, but this is already ugly. I can see a holdout happening with Houston getting $.50 on the dollar. We have to see if Watson is willing to sacrifice some huge game checks in order to get out. Everyone has principles until it affects them financially.

Not sure why Houston thinks they can work things out with him.  They've already made some moves that he didn't like because they make his job more difficult.  That's not easy to forgive and forget.

Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is often the right one. That explanation is that Texans ownership and management is absolutely braindead and have no idea what they are doing. They are basically being ran by a Life Coach right now. They gave us the moon for a LT and received peanuts in return for a Top 3 WR. The smart play is to trade him for a huge haul and start their desperately needed rebuild. I can see them being stubborn and ignoring all trade requests and then DeShaun starts no showing camp and games, forcing them to deal him for Two 1st rounders and a 2nd because teams willing to trade before are now set at QB.

I am enjoying this trainwreck, it will only get better if Russell Wilson is traded to remove another team off the list for DeShaun.

ESPN's Dan Graziano reports Deshaun Watson met with new Texans coach David Culley last Friday and "reiterated that he wants to be traded and told Culley he has no intention of playing for the Texans again."

This will start to come to a head once the draft gets close. Something will either get done before the draft or it won't and Watson will be under contract with the Texans for this year. Whether he plays or not is another question completely.

Yeah, they are going to lose a ton of suitors after the draft if they don't trade him. We would be one of them as I imagine the Jets would be too. Once NY has Wilson or Fields, I don't see them turning over that day and trading them to Houston.

Watson makes a lot and I know he wants out, but is he really going to sit out training camp and the first 7 games and lose all that money? Think it would be something like $15 Million. That's a lot of money for principles.

Watson signed his deal when he knew how messed up the team was. A Houston sports writer who has been there forever says no one inside the organization is saying they are even considering trading him and in fact might use him as an example moving forward. They really do need to improve their stability so it would be a great place to start as everyone is looking at them.

It's going to come down to 1 of 2 things. 1) What offer is being left on their voicemail? 2) Is Watson willing to sacrifice a lot of money to sit out but play in the last 9-10 games so that it counts as a year off his contract?

Once the draft passes and no trade has been made, sititng out is the only play left.

There are so many QB's looking at switching teams this off-season, and projections of QB's being drafted, that I don't see any team willing to give up what Texas would want for him.  IMO there just aren't any teams that are that close to making the hurdle to the SB that they would give up multiple #1's and take on a huge contract.

I really see this going the Le'Veon Bell route where he sits out the entire season and he gets traded next year (probably for what the Texans could get this year), and he loses out on a year's salary.

I think if Houston ends up playing hardball with watson he's going to full on pull a Kawhi Leonard and have an "injury" that lasts for months while they're still paying him the full amount

You're probably right and it's kind of what I have been saying for a bit too. Why go to the 2 win Jets who have very little talent and now will have very little draft picks and less cap space? Only a few teams make sense in terms of being close to contending like us and the Colts.

Then again, all it takes is one team to give up 3 years worth of 1s and 2s to make it happen.

Sadly, the team was much better off when he signed his deal!  It sounds almost comical to say that HOU was a more stable and respectable franchise when Bill O'Brien was in charge, but that's what we're looking at.

In any case, had Watson not signed that deal, he would still be under contract until the end of this upcoming season.  He would have much less leverage in every respect.  If this were like the NBA, where you can go to free agency and hit the open market, then Watson may have been better off not signing... but in the NFL, where teams can just franchise you repeatedly and offload all the risk to you, you take the money when it's offered.

Houston sports writer John McClain said teams have been calling Houston to tell them not to give in as they don't want the NFL turning into the NBA.

......interesting. FWIW, I agree with them in that the NBA became European soccer with letting the players run the team, but of the 4 major sports leagues the NFL treats the players the worst so I'm not against things like this happening either.

Deshaun Watson's lawyer (and the NFLPA) would definitely like this reporting on illegal collusion to be accurate.

I mean, you cannot have a clearer example of textbook collusion than this.

It's definitely on the shadier side, but is it collusion to deny a trade request? It's definitely collusion if the owners all agreed to not pay someone what they are worth, but a trade request is essentially a wish. I don't think Houston has to grant his wish, although they are so poorly run it wouldn't be surprising if they did collude in other areas.

Personally I wouldn't think its illegal to give trade advice to another team when the advice is about something that is legal in the first place. It isn't like they are tying to mess with his salary. They are just suggesting you hold him to the contract he already signed. Oh, the horror to make him work for the agreement he signed.

I think so too, although I am sure the league itself won't be happy if any of this is proven. It's not illegal but it's still a bad look.

It is absolutely, positively, without question illegal collusion for other teams to ask the Texans NOT to take an acceptable deal* because it would give future players too much leverage.  That is the whole reason you have anti-collusion LAWS (because these aren't NFL "rules," they're federal laws) in the first place.

You have literally just described what collusion is.

For example: it's not illegal for NFL teams to individually choose not to pay players more than $x, but it absolutely is illegal for NFL teams to ask other NFL teams not to pay players more than $x so that salaries stay lower.  Again, this is textbook collusion: the kind of example you would specifically use in law school.

By law, NFL teams are supposed to be competitors.  This is no different than Microsoft and Sony asking Nintendo not to make a game console that's less than $500 so all three companies can protect their profits.

*You don't need to "advise" the Texans to reject a deal that they find UNacceptable; they would do that anyway.  The premise of the ask (from the other teams) is for the Texans to reject a deal they otherwise would have taken, in service of a greater good: preventing the players from gaining leverage.  That's collusion, without a doubt.

And I learned something today. Thank you.

Yes, but based on your statement it would have to be "an Acceptable Deal", which is open to interpretation.  More importantly the Texans have stated they do not want to trade Watson, and therefore are under no obligation to trade him.  So if another team is saying stick to your guns and don't trade him, then how is that collusion (whether it's an acceptable deal or not)??  Throw in the fact that Watson has a No Trade clause in his contract why should the Texans put any work into creating a trade deal when Watson could just turn around and say "NO"?

To make it crystal clear:

The act of any NFL team asking a competitor (in this case, the Texans) to reject a deal because doing so would help teams in future dealings with the players is illegal collusion.  Period, end of story.  It doesn't matter whether the Texans follow their advice, or ignore them.  If Dan Snyder calls up Cal McNair and tells him not to trade Watson to "keep the NFL from turning into the NBA," the Washington Football Team has committed illegal collusion, full stop.

You are legally not allowed to coordinate actions with your competitors outside of collective bargaining.  Now, if the league wanted to go directly to the NFLPA and handle things that way, that would not be collusion... but that's not what has been described.  What has been described is illegal collusion, plain and simple.

Unlike many of you I'm not a lawyer so I'm guessing what is legally right and wrong. Either way I do know that "proving" a crime has been committed is different than actually believing someone committed one.

100% but the Texans are such a stupid organization and a lot of owners are also dumb and corrupt, so if records were ever subpoenaed I am sure they would find something.

Well it would be tough to prove.  NBA Players are not allowed to collude either, but they blatantly do it.

If you're talking about NBA players teaming up, I don't think that can qualify as collusion.  Players do not compete against each other for the services of other players (by definition, as players cannot make hiring decisions).

Now, there is definitely an argument to be made that NBA players are tampering with other players who are currently under contract to a different team.  For now, teams have chosen to look the other way on this.  Maybe they believe it motivates other teams to compete instead of tanking?  Who knows.

But I think the best analogy for this overlooked tampering in the NBA is something else that recently happened in the NFL: when DAL and WSH "violated the salary cap" (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/11124038/nflowners-acted-collusion-dallas-cowboys-washington-redskins-did-wrong-uncapped-2010-season) in a season that was supposed to be uncapped.  The NFL penalized DAL and WSH for going over a cap that (on paper) did not exist.  Normally, the NFLPA would have a pretty strong argument for collusion between the teams, but apparently during the last CBA, the league was able to offer the NFLPA something significant enough to get them to look the other way, and the outcome was that WSH and DAL were penalized for violating an (illegal) shadow salary cap.

Seeing as how the NFLPA is a pathetic union for the players, I'm sure the owners just offered them the rest of their sandwich and they accepted.

NFL Network interviewed the Texans new coach and the whole thing was filled with phrases like "he is our QB for now" which led the interviewer to believe Watson will be traded. This has dragged on for so long I just want to keep Tua and our picks but we will keep talking about it until it's finally over.

Looks like Miami and New York are out of the mix. I couldn't be happier about both.

Former NFL executive Michael Lombardi said there’s a “rumor” Watson doesn’t want to play in Miami or New York. Hard to know what a “rumor” means other than it’s something a team official said he heard. Lombardi has access to people he worked with while in the front offices of the Browns, Raiders and Patriots. Here’s what Lombardi said on The Rich Eisen Show: “The rumor is he doesn’t want to play in New York. The rumor is he doesn’t want to play in Miami. He wants to play in Denver (or) San Francisco. So now you’re (Texans General Manager) Nick Caserio, and now your trade options are limited, especially when you know he controls where he wants to go.”

I don't believe these rumors, he may have preferences but there is zero chance he refuses to be traded unless it's to the Broncos or Niners, Niners being the better option. I would be shocked if he comes to Miami and I hope he doesn't at this point but it doens't make much sense for him to not want to include us as a top destination considering over talent, future and Miami just being a great city....except their pizza. Your pizza sucks.

In other words he understands that NY and Miami don't want him, so now he says he doesn't want to play in those places.  Well he isn't going to SF, I've heard from a very reliable source that SF is set with Jimmy G.  So I guess that leaves Denver.

Methinks you might be eating at the wrong pizza joints.  Next time, try Jets Pizza and/or Motor City Pizza.  Damned tasty pies...

Only went to two and one of them served me raw dough like I was Gordon Ramsay at a failing restaurant. I'm sure there is better but I live in NYC, pizza is one of the few things we do right.

Hard to say but Joe Rose and crew seemed to be a little off put by the news this morning. I realize many people find it hard to fathom but the South Florida environment isn't everyone's cup of tea.

You obviously went to the wrong pizza places then.  There's a couple that I frequent that are amazingly good.  Granted, both owners are from the New York area and import water from that area down here every day.  

And to stay on topic, it may not matter where Watson prefers to play at this point.  His market value may have just taken a nose dive due to the sexual assault lawsuit filed against him.  

And now there is a civil lawsuit against Watson for sexual assault. It could just be someone looking for money, but either way it doesn't help his cause.

Hmmm ...  who had the Texans paying a massage therapist to make sure Watson stays home?

The Houston QB pushed back on social media. “As a result of a social-media post by a publicity-seeking plaintiff’s lawyer, I recently became aware of a lawsuit that has apparently been filed against me,” Watson posted to Twitter. “I have not yet seen the complaint, but I know this: I have never treated any woman with anything other than the utmost respect. The plaintiff’s lawyer claims that this isn’t about money, but before filing suit he made a baseless six-figure settlement demand, which I quickly rejected. Unlike him, this isn’t about money for me — it’s about clearing my name, and I look forward to doing that.”

It's a detailed denial, on the surface I tend to believe those. Compare this with other denials like what Antonio Brown used to say. Watson seems like a good egg, I don't think he did anything wrong but maybe the evidence says otherwise.

If he wins this suit, that makes him believable.  If he loses or settles, then his statement is 100% horseshit.

Oh, I know. I'm just saying my personal initial reactions lead me to think he is telling the truth.

I saw a theory posted on reddit that the reason the Dolphins are not jumping into free agency as expected is because they are waiting to see what's going to happen with Deshaun Watson. It's certainly possible. If they want to make a splash in free agency, Deshaun Watson would be the biggest splash of all.

I think that ship has sailed. At this point, the team and probably most of the fans feel that Tua plus our draft picks is better than Watson plus none of them. It's such a monumental decision as well that it can't be done on draft night. Has to be done weeks in advance, if not already because we are building our team as if Tua and the picks will be there. If it were Watson, we probably would've done things differently.

And now Watson has been named in two more lawsuits for sexual assault.   It's looking more and more like he won't leave Houston.  Nobody is going to want him at this point

Oh, they'll take him. This just lowers his price and Houston may not move him now because of that. The league routinely employs wife beaters and drunk drivers and criminals as long as they are talented, they will tolerate a Top 5 QB who did some bad things with a hooker as long as he stays on the field.

If you had posted that five years ago, I would've agreed.  But in today's cancel culture, that statement is up in the air

Cancel culture only effects those who aren't talented enough like that Miami Heat player who said some racist shit playing a videogame. Xavien Howard had some legal issues about being violent with his girlfriend and we barely even remember that due to 10 INTs.

Now if Jakeem Grant said he hated Jews? You're off the team!

I can see Robert Kraft and him bonding over this.  >:D

Ray Rice wasn't talented?

Not at the end of his career when that incident occurred.

That and there is a difference when someone is arrested for domestic abuse and someone is on camera doing it. Obviously, not to the person being abused and you can't excuse their behavior just because a film crew wasn't there but people tend to forgive or forget what they can't see.

Sounds like it's beyond that as right now they have 3 who have come out and the attorney said today that 6 more will soon come forward. That's some really, really, bad press for anyone to take on.

not looking great for Watson, the NFL investigating isn't great

At least he could still win a presidential election as long as he hugged enough flags and made liberals angry enough.

Is it the same lawyer representing them all and are they all from the same massage place? Not saying that proves his innocence if it is, but if it is a lawyer looking for a payday it's a lot easier to get one business involved then several others.

Ask yourself why Kareem Hunt was released but Tyreek Hill wasn't.  "Cancel culture" had nothing to do with it.

The NFL will still happily employ any player they think will make them money.

This could be a deal breaker for anyone wanting to trade for Watson though especially if it could mean missing games in 2021 although I don't think these lawsuits alone are enough for that. The NFL will do their own investigation though and who knows that that will turn up.

Misisng games or even potential jail time down the road is the only reason a team would be reluctant to trade for him based off of this. He could beat 20 hookers on camera and that wouldn't stop a team from acquiring him as long as the league says there will be no suspension.

Four more lawsuits have now been filed against Watson.

I'm sorry but I think his goose is cooked.  He won't be playing football in 2021 even if he wants to

Like I said above, are these lawsuits from the same lawyer and the same place? Because if it was a shady lawyer looking for a payday, that can very easily be put together. You can throw on another 39 from the same place and it's just as good as one.

Now, if these are from many different lawyers and many different places, then that is harder to fake and doesn't look good.

"Four new lawsuits alleging sexual misconduct have been filed against Deshaun Watson.

The Houston Chronicle reported the new batch of suits filed by women who claim Watson engaged in misconduct during massage sessions. One of the new lawsuits alleges that Watson assaulted the same massage therapist twice in fall 2020. Six of the lawsuits accuse Watson of inappropriately touching women with his penis. He allegedly resisted wearing towels to cover his naked body during the massage sessions."

If this is the same place, then it is not credible to me. No way are you letting a large rapist into your establishment to sexually assault your workers almost a dozen different times.

Or maybe you are as long as he's kicking ass for your team, but the minute he wants to leave, you bring this out in the open.  Either way, it's blackmail. if that's the case.

This happens a lot to athletes and politicians. They essentially get blackmailed in the form of a frivilous lawsuit and pay them off in the small 6 figures just to not be publicly embarassed. Watson says he was messaged asking for this amount and said no, then the lawsuits came. IMO, this is very likely a brothel type place and they figured he wouldn't want people to know but DeShaun just said fuck it and is calling them out on it. I just can't fathom one location would allow a large rapist to come to their establishment so many times, nor would they press charges.

You of course assume the place isn't shady as hell and the ownership don't give a fuck about the workers and would rather be on good terms with the star QB. .. Cause that scenario never exists right?

If that's the case though Watson probably walks away from these law suits without a scratch. It doesn't support your case if you allow someone to engage in the same bad behavior over and over and then later file a lawsuit against that person for their bad behavior. Your odds of winning those lawsuits goes down tremendously when you knowingly allowed the behavior. So the question will be what evidence is there that a) He did the things alleged and b) The ownership/workers knew about it and did nothing to stop it.

If prostitution was legal, regulated, and taxed, not just in some places in Nevada, then this wouldn't be an issue.

It's not impossible but when dealing with a celebrity or athlete, you always have power to go to the press or an attorney. It's a lot different when dealing with just a businessman because the media attention will not be there.

Assault and prostitution are different things. If Watson wants a prostitute I'm sure it wouldn't be tough. Hell I can find them if I want.

Buzbee (the attorney) said the women who have filed suits didn't previously know each other. If true i doesn't sound like one place is getting the mob together.

And now up to 20 women have made allegations against him.   Things keep getting worse for him

I feel so fortunate that Miami did not trade for him. We've suffered enough bad press in the last 20 years to last a lifetime.

Possible, but if they are all employees from the same spot then it would be very easy to get them together and say "sign this document and we'll get you $10,000 when it's over". My job has dealt with 3 class action lawsuits like this in the past and we found out through word of mouth that is what the lawyers said to ex employees. My job is owned by shitty people but we were innocent of these lawsuits.

Still hard to believe that they let a sexual harasser/rapist into their establishment this many times. Not just that, but this means Watson is a serial rapist who would never see the sunshine again if convicted. It's a lot to absorb and believe at this stage in the game without evidence. I would be very interested to see if they recorded any of this.

The latest one was a traveling masseuse and said the incident happened in California. The NFL is investigating but there has to be some sort of evidence other than claims. Text messages? Video? Bank records that show he used these places on the dates noted? Otherwise nothing can be proven. Even with bank records it just shows that he was there, not that any wrongdoing occured.

So, I guess this officially ends the DeShaun Watson trade talk. I don't think he is going anywhere now, especially with the legal issues.

Reports are coming out of Watson deleting Instagram posts and trying to contact the victim's lawyers to settle these cases.  The media has gotten a hold of one therapist and printed her story. 

I think Watson's goose is cooked. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/03/29/first-hand-story-of-deshaun-watson-inappropriate-behavior-not-in-lawsuit

One more link for you. I think he makes a lot of sense. Come August things could look a whole lot different then they do right now and Houston may be willing to trade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeYt12eicxY

I don't think you're understanding the gravity of this situation.  More than twenty women are accusing him!!!  At this point there is almost no fathomable chance that this is a setup or a shakedown. There's entirely too many accusers from all over the place to be a coincidence!!!   I don't see him playing in 2021.

That's not true, once a lawyer wants a class action against you, it's quite easy to get people to join once you show them a dollar amount. Testifying on a witness stand is quite another story but initially filing a lawsuit is very easy.

Not saying he is innocent or guilty, but there could be another 50 lawsuits filed and it won't change anything until actual evidence is shown.

Who cares if Houston is willing to trade? This is a slow motion train wreck that to date we have been smart to avoid.... and an expensive one we should continue to avoid!

Do you see him not playing in 2021 because he's suspended by the league, because he's holding out or because he's in jail? I can see him possibly being suspended, but maybe it's only a game or 2 and if that's the case I could still see him being traded. He can always challenge the suspension and possibly stall it long enough to get the suspension moved to 2022 and still play in 2021. As far as holding out, that's a possibility but only if he's still on the Texans. I don't see jail time coming. He'll settle with these women. It's the smart thing to do and if that happens there may not be any suspension or a very light one a game or 2 like I said. So in any of those scenario's I still think there's a good chance he's traded. Not necessarily to the Dolphins but someone is going to make a play for him. He's too good not to play football in 2021.

He will only be suspended with some type of evidence or admission of wrongdoing. The NFL suspends players after they are arrested and "charges get dropped" which is just code for "I bought them off". If Watson denies this the whole way and there is no real evidence against him, he can't be suspended. Even the pathetic NFLPA won't stand for that.

I will say that this makes him unlikely to hold out now because that is just going to draw more attention onto him and he probably just wants to play football now.

I also have to mention that if what is being reported is true, then DeShaun or his attorney are not bright. Deleting Instagram messages isn't a crime because he hasn't been charged with anything yet, but it looks bad. Contacting women directly about "settling" is also bad unless he gets them to swear under oath that this was all a scam and the lawyer wanted them to lie. Not saying it is, but when you have 20+ women accusing you of things by one attorney, settling with only a handful out of court doesn't solve your problems.

Watson said publicly that he would fight this to the end to clear his name.  If he settles with these women, it's going to look like his statement is 100% horseshit.

That's what he said when there were 3 women accusing him. Things have changed. Besides it already looks like his statement is 100% horseshit so there's that. LOL

The linked video says that the Dolphins have set themselves up to be ready to trade for Watson if/when these accusations are resolved.  They have enough draft capital in 2022/2023 to still be able to make a deal at the end of the summer.

With the specific disclaimer that I'm not excusing Watson for any actions he may have taken, it seems pretty strange that these allegations come out as he's playing hardball with the Texans.  I'm not saying that Cal McNair paid these women to lie, but maybe he was keeping a lot of these women silent and decided to stop doing so?  It reminds me of the scene with the senator from Godfather II.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULcJhIoLte4

Actually it is a crime.  Destroying evidence after being served with a civil suit that is relevant to the civil suit is a felony most jurisdictions.

It is suspicious timing, can't be disregarded. However, like Watson is innocent until proven guilty, so are the Texans of something like this. Fortunately for us, they are so poorly run if they did do anything like set Watson up, they probably left a huge paper trail.

Ahh, then he is a dumb shit. It seemed like a crime but I wasn't sure because no charges were brought up. This leads me to believe he is going against his lawyer's advice or he doesn't even have one. Something almost unfathomable for a man of his stature and wealth.

This thread is hysterical in a darkly comical way. We spent months discussing whether or not we even wanted Watson to how much he would cost in a trade and how much other teams would bid and now we are discussing whether or not he is the country's most notorious sexual predator.

Do you think we were away of this and never made a proper bid for him? Imagine trading the 3, 18, 36 and future 1sts for a guy that goes to jail and never plays a snap?

At least we don't have to worry about this from Tua!

(knocks on planet-sized block of wood)

Man. I never should have bought that white Dolphins Watson jersey. Guess I jumped the gun. I'll consider any and all offers or trades. Hit me up.

I dunno.  He is supposedly very religious.  Very religious people scare me when it comes to sexual morality.  Usually the more repressed someone is, the bigger of a freak they are.  :) 

That's the problem when you have limited experience on a subject. Most of what you would consider deeply religious rarely ever have any surprising issues and the media only highlights those that do. Hard for some of you to understand this but Tim Tebow isn't the only male virgin to graduate college and not be gay or repressed.

Watson has serious issues for sure if 19 lawsuits have been filed and could get worse if he is found to be covering up. While it's debatable just how serious as just a few short years ago much of this stuff would have been fairly acceptable he definitely isn't going to go unpunished by both the law and the NFL.

I was generalizing with my comment.  I know some very fine upstanding Christians.  But I was also a devout believer and church goer for 30 years so it isn't as if I'm not fully aware of the rampant moral hypocrisy among many of the "righteous".   

Most humans rarely ever have any surprising issues, and the media only highlights those that do.

When you loudly dedicate your life to the idea commonly-held values are morally inferior, and then you are found to have violated that standard yourself, sure, the media is going to have their fun with you.  That's the nature of society itself.

If there's a reason why the deeply religious are harshly criticized for their failings, it is precisely because they standard they advocate (for others) is so aggressively strict.

Amen!  Pun very much intended.

While on the topic, I will just leave this right here.  From June 2019.   

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2019/june/nfl-quarterback-deshaun-watson-has-life-changing-experience-getting-baptized-in-jordan-river

Well, this is certainly interesting.

Attorney Tony Buzbee, who represents the women suing Watson, said Sunday night that Watson was deleting Instagram messages and contacting the women "who formally provided him massages, in an attempt to settle" those cases, ESPN reports. Watson, through his attorney, denied both allegations. "Like a lot of people, Deshaun regularly deletes past Instagram messages," said Rusty Hardin, Watson's lawyer. "That said, he has not deleted any messages since March 15th, the day before the first lawsuit was filed." Buzbee said in a Tuesday Instagram post that he "doesn't feel comfortable going to the Houston Police Department" with information, according to ESPN. Buzbee said he and his clients "will go elsewhere to provide our evidence to investigative authorities."

This makes both sides look guilty now. Deleting messages before lawsuits are filed is a bad look, but he is denying that he contacted women looking to settle. That's not really a matter of opinion issue, either he did or he didn't.

As far as the lawyer goes, not wanting to get the law involved makes his case look completely phony. There is no reason to not get them involved to investigate unless you think they will either find nothing or catch your clients in a lie that kills your lawsuit. I mentioned before that my company was involved in a fraudulent class action lawsuit in the past and once it got to the phase where the ex-employees had to start talking to opposing attorneys, a lot of them backed out. Lying under oath is not something the massage girls would get away with and a high priced attorney would tear them up under examination.

If I had to guess right now, I would say that Watson was looking for massage girls that were basically prostitutes and maybe he swung and missed a few times while he was with them, hoping that by offering them cash in the moment and taking off his towel something would happen but it did not. The Instagram messages probably confirmed something like that, I don't think he was as dumb as Antonio Brown with his text messages. I don't think it was anything illegal, just creepy and bad for his image. Maybe even suspension worthy by the NFL.

The Texans are by far the most entertaining team in the league and deserve their numbers retired by the Dolphins.

And the unthinkable and inevitable has happened.  The Houston police have launched an investigation into these allegations.   

This is going to take time to sort out.  I'm calling it now.  Watson will not be playing in 2021

Not a bad prediction if there is some merit to these claims, but I don't know how they can be proven without a confession or video evidence. Seems like Watson's best play if he is guilt is to keep denying everything.

As far as the cops go, let's see how the investigation unfolds. If none of the women want to speak with them, then it is just nonsense and a cash grab.

Keep in mind this is how the Aaron Hernandez situation started out.   Same with Bill Cosby.   

1 he says/she says - yeah you need more evidence.

20 people accusing him of the same thing is more than enough evidence.

Not without proof, it is very easy to get people to sign on for what amounts to a class action lawsuit. Their requirements are basically to sign your name to whatever the lawyer says. IF they actually interview with police and look to press charges, then it means something. As is, the higher the number the less believable it becomes.

That's a weird way to judge things.
Did you think the charges against Bill Cosby were more believable when it was just one woman instead of 50?

Like I said before, it is very easy to get people to join a class action suit or a ton of similar suits. They don't have to do much but let the lawyer speak. Once the cops get involved, most bow out because they just wanted some easy cash, not commit a crime for it. I imagine the same will happen now that Houston PD is investigating. The ones who keep going are either telling the truth or telling lies that can't be proven as lies so they are in the clear.

With all of that being said, if even half of these are true, then Watson is done in the NFL and might be facing serious jail time if they can prove it in court. Hopefully, they can.

2 of the 22 claimants have gone public today. Their names are out there but we don't really need to show them here. I imagine these women probably have some texts or messages showing that Watson contacted them about massages and perhaps more. Doesn't do them much good to come forward without any evidence unless they want to be D List Celebrities.

Nike has just announced they are suspending Watson's endorsement deals amid these allegations

"These harassment claims are disturbing and has no part in our business model of using slave labor from a country committing genocide to make our overpriced shoes." - Nike

Women are vilifying him so advertisers are taking notice. While it is to be seen how this will affect him legally ... the more these “victims” speak out the worse it will be for him publicly. I heard the Feds are involved now as he brought in women across state lines for his sexual massages.

If I were a celebrity/pro athlete/etc., I don't think I would ever leave my house.  Not a life that I would want at all. 

Yeah, women coming forward was a game changer because you put yourself out there and your past and if you are a scam artist looking for a buck, you will be found out. At the end of the day, I still think he was just being a creep who thought he was getting a hooker and when he realized he was not, tried to offer cash and expose himself to make it happen.

Not model behavior but not criminal. If he did worse than that, lock him up. Innocent until proven guilty but if he is guilty of more than that then screw him and enjoy prison.

I could excuse this type of behavior if it happened once or twice. He made it his standard operating procedure. He has enough money, if you want a hooker, hire one. Obviously this goes way beyond wanting a hooker. I can't excuse this type of behaviour.

Having said that I don't put athletes on a pedestal. I don't really give a shit if a guy is a creep, sex addict, or even morally reprehensible if he can help my team win. I'd prefer that all athletes just shut the hell up and play and we kept their personal lives out of the newspaper, but that's not the society we live in so I recognize that teams can't afford to have guys like this on their team and I respect that.

I don't own sports memorabelia from players. I do own a Dan Marino jersey but it's just a jersey with his name on the back, not signed by him. I also have his book My life in Football, but it was given to me as a gift, I did not purchase it nor would I have. I don't believe in making athletes into heroes. They get paid to play a game. I root them on as I root on my team, but I have no illusions about the player as a person. I don't care who they are or what they do, I don't root them on as a person, I only care if they can help my team(s) win. That may be cynical and probably is, but that's what I think so honestly unless Watson can't play football next year, I would still like to see him on the Dolphins. I don't think that's going to happen anymore, but I wouldn't have a problem with it if it did.

You can't excuse his behavior but don't care what he does?  Kind of a 180.

I'm saying that I think Deshaun Watson the person is morally reprehensible at best and might be a criminal at worst and deserves whatever is coming to him, but I'd still like to have him as the Dolphins QB in 2021 if that was possible. Does that make sense? If not, well that's just me. I don't typically think like most people do.

I don't think he will be anyone's QB in 2021 because he may have left a paper trail and if this very wealthy and famous man was seriously hiring hookers through Instagram, then he is a total degenerate that probably left a paper trail of other things. You're incredibly wealthy and are basically a God in Houston, why are you going to hookers and why are you doing it yourself instead of through your agent?

At the end of the day, bet the Texans wish they traded him now. Tua, the 3rd and 18th picks? Would've erased the O'Brien failure and made us into clowns. Now? Franchise is worse than ever. Maybe we should offer them our 18th pick for future draft picks?

I think you are giving him too much credit saying that he was hiring hookers through Instragram. That's not what he was doing at all, he was getting people into his home and other places on the pretense of getting a massage and then exposing himself to them and hoping to get more then a massage and if not bribe them to stay quiet and thought this was acceptable behavior. It's not.

If that is what he was doing, it is absolutely not acceptable. Whether or not it is criminal will depend on how far he went. Of course, prostitution is illegal but he won't be doing jail time for that. Only if he assaulted one of them.

Still, he is rich and probably has a mansion. If he really wanted those kinds of massages, go through your agent. He doesn't work at Walmart, getting off work and looking through Craigs List. I'm sure his agent could've set him up with models or actresses. What a dumbass.

That statement is based on a myth you want to pretend is true.  That men are common victims to false allegations of sexual misconduct while actual misconduct is rare.  And that is total bullshit.  Reality the sexual assault is extremely common, most of it is never reported and false allegations are extremely rare.

Slow down there, killer.  I was just talking about the general hassles that come with being a celebrity.  Not being able to go out to dinner without being hounded, not being able to go shopping without being hounded, not being able to meet a girl without wondering if she is in it for the paycheck, etc.   I wasn't saying a single fucking thing about whether the accusations against Watson are legit or not.  And yes, I am fully aware of sexual assault being common and often never reported and that false allegations are extremely rare. 20 years in law enforcement, remember?   If you want to jump all over my ass for something I say, go right ahead.  But pipe the F down about jumping up my ass over something I never said. 

The Texans beat writer, Aaron Wilson, has been in his position for years.  He is now unemployed.  He appeared on a Boston sports radio station and called these lawsuits a "money grab" and referred to the victims as "terrorists"

https://www.totalprosports.com/2021/04/10/audio-released-of-nfl-reporter-calling-deshaun-watson-lawsuits-a-money-grab-comparing-victims-to-terrorists-audio/

As of this moment, I do agree with this assessment. Although, I definitely will allow for the possibility that Watson exposed himself and tried to pay for sex, I just won't say that is worth $5 Million in emotional damage.

Watson’s attorney already admitted he had sex with multiple therapists but said it was consensual. The plaintiffs say it was not.

Very sadly, rape is hard to prove unless it is reported immediately. Even then, it usually requires some type of evidence like an admission of guilt via text or something like that.

If Watson saw the same therapist he allegedly raped AFTER the date they claimed they were raped, then their case stands no chance. There has to be some sort of proof for this to go forward past the accusational phase. If he did do this, I hope they have it.

This whole thing makes you think whether the lack of a Watson trade was because the Texans just refused or teams knew there was something and didn't want to make any offers until this was sorted out? You obviously can't trade 3-4 1st rounders for a guy that goes to jail.

Many people get convicted on circumstantial evidence.  Circumstantial evidence is considered a legitimate form of proof in federal and state courts. A person may be convicted of a crime based on circumstantial proof alone. When it's a he said vs she said the "he" is often at a disadvantage but when the "she" is dozens I'm guessing he's pretty much screwed regardless of if he is guilty or not.

While it is possible, I don't see Watson going to jail based off on no evidence but accusations. Now, if a bunch of accusations are followed with some text messages that say something like "sorry I was so rough" or "I'll pay extra if you don't tell people" then it's something more.

I don't want to drag politics into this forum, but in our current political climate, I don't see a successful black man going to jail for the rest of his life based off of nothing but accusations from white women.

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/drmBnnRLw7ULm/giphy.gif)

Ooof.

Isn't it time to put an end to this thread?  Or at least move it to the "Around the NFL" forum.

PS I have a craving for a pudding pop now.

I would move it to the other forum, we can keep it going as a legal update thread. Which is insane to think about from where this started.

Texans general manager Nick Caserio refused to address Deshaun Watson's trade availability or legal matters.

The always-prickly Caserio rebuffed reporters' questions about Houston's franchise QB, who has reportedly said he won't play for the Texans and faces more than 20 accusations of sexual misconduct. "If you want to speculate, you should probably go buy Bitcoin, focus on that," Caserio said during Friday's press conference. Caserio wrote off the rocky start to his tenure as the team's general manager, pointing out there are people on earth with worse problems. He said he's trying to "put the best team together possible." The Texans, as of today, have arguably the worst roster in the NFL after a series of baffling free agency signings. Journeyman Tyrod Taylor, meanwhile, is on pace to start the season as Houston's QB. - Rotoworld

Hear me out.......we trade the Texans our #18 pick this year for their 1st, 2nd and 4th rounders next year. Practically guaranteed to be a Top 3 pick again even if Watson somehow manages to play. I just want to keep trading for Houston's draft picks.