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I noticed Dave's post about Ricky Williams

It's very interesting.  Nobody has responded to it, but nobody has disagreed with it either.

However, the consensus on this board is that Jonathan Martin, who also suffered from mental illnesses, was just a wimp.

I have been the sole person to be on Martin's side on this site. 

Is this because Ricky had great talent, and Martin did not have any talent? 

Martin had to deal with being intimidated into giving money away to his teammates, and direct threats from a mentally deranged teammate. 

Ricky, to my knowledge, never experienced that.

This is a terrible post.

How is it a terrible post?  It makes a legitimate point. 

I have suffered mental health issues my entire life.  I have been stigmatized for it, too.

I know what Martin went through, and I DO NOT THINK HE IS A WIMP.

It's a terrible post because you're not the sole person who was on Martin's side.   

You answered your own question.  Although society often display empathy or sympathy towards the mentally ill (or in Martin's case, mental illness combined with being a "wimp"), society as a general rule has much more empathy or sympathy towards the talented (or those viewed as winners) than towards those who "did not have any talent" (those perceived as losers).   By no means am I defending this, I'm just stating it as a fact.  Do people have more empathy for a mentally ill homeless person or more empathy for a war hero who has PTSD?   By no means am I comparing Martin to a homeless person nor Ricky Williams to a war hero, but the same principle applies.  With or without mental illness, society always favors the talented over the untalented. 

And Incognito was talented while Martin not so much.   But that doesn't excuse Incognito strong-arming Martin out of $15k for a trip Martin didn't want to go on.

Oh, absolutely.  I will admit that all along I've had more empathy for Incognito than Martin in that situation.  But by no means does that mean that I found Incognito's actions to be "okay" or excusable. 

Thanks for confirming, but we all figured that out on our own.

Incognito was a problem. I loved the football player Incognito, but as a human he's just trash. I remember reading a few pieces about him and seeing him for what he really was. A very big, intimidating,  talented racist, and misogynistic bully.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on him too.

On this site I certainly was.   

This is self-contradictory to the nth degree. 

UNLESS, and I have an open mind so if there is more to the story, let me know.

Did Martin do anything to incite Incognito?  From my understanding, he was struggling to perform well on the field, and that's what led to Incognito and everybody else ganging up on him

A lot of Incognito's football "talent" was based on sucking his opponents in and dragging them down to his own level.

Unfortunately Miami was a worst case scenario where he also did that to our own lineman (Martin was not the only one). He needed a bigger bully as a coach to stop him getting out of control, and instead we had pathetic Philbin. We really did end up with a psycho running the asylum, and I couldn't wait for us to be rid of him.

I had a fair bit of sympathy for Jonathan Martin to start with, less so as the saga and his actions lingered on. It's an awful chapter I think most people want to forget about TBH.

It isn't the least bit contradictory.  This was the prototypical bully versus sissy scenario.   Incognito is the very definition of a bully.  Martin was soft emotionally and physically.  Martin had no business being on an NFL team because NFL players (especially the bullies) eat soft people up and spit them out.  And that is exactly what happened.  Martin was in WAY over his head in the NFL.  Did he do anything to incite Incognito?  Not in the traditional sense of picking a fight.  But he incited the exact reaction that soft people get in the NFL from bullies.  He was essentially a sissy.   As the Dolphins' self proclaimed enforcer, Incognito appointed himself as the guy to weed out the soft sissies who wouldn't be able to cut it on the Offensive Line.  And he was 100% successful at it.  Incognito has had how many years in the NFL now?  How many years did Martin have?     Does that make what Incognito right or acceptable?  Of course not.   But life is hard.  Life in the NFL is harder.  The weak get chased down and eaten by the predators.  Martin was weak. Incognito was a predator.   Incognito is an asshole and a despicable human being.  And he is in the one profession where being an asshole and a despicable human being is acceptable and in some cases, desirable.    You are always fond of saying "winning is all that matters".    If you actually believe that, then you should have no problem with what Incognito did.  He weeded out someone weak who would have added zero to the odds of the Dolphins winning.   So which do you actually believe?   Is winning all that matters or does good character count?  It is one or the other.  And the bigger question is how did the Dolphins do such a shitty job of researching Martin before the draft that they were unable to uncover the fact that Martin was so soft?   I want a nice, respectable guy to marry my daughter.  I want a nasty, eye gouging, mean motherfucker protecting my Quarterback.  Offensive linemen don't do toothpaste commercials flashing their pearly whites and they don't pluck their eyebrows.  The eyebrow plucking is saved for the Kickers.  

I'm trying to think of a way to phrase this so I don't get scolded by the mods.  D4L, you are probably a nice kid in real life.  But I don't think you have a lot of maturity, or life experience regarding how the real world works and you don't know a lot about football and both of those things kind of bite you in the butt on here pretty often. 

So if that's the case, why do you say Incognito's actions were not defensible or excusable?  It seems like you are saying they were.

I can see where that might look contradictory I guess.  I think Stinkfish put it pretty well when he said that he loved Incognito as a football player but thought he was trash as a human being.  In the microcosm of putting the Dolphins in the position of having the best offensive line that would put them in the best position to win football games, I found his actions excusable and understandable.   In the grand scheme of life and being a decent human being, I found his actions to be indefensible.  It is a fine line, and I can understand someone thinking it looks like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth on the topic. 

The difference is very easy to understand. Both men had some form of mental health issues. Both men had enough talent to be able to be considered to be an NFL player.
However only one of these two men managed to craft a career in the NFL in spite of their mental health issues. The other one quit, not once, but twice, from NFL teams within stao years.
So even though he had Martin had a couple teammates being dickheads to him, he didn't face the pressure of trying to carry a franchise that Williams did when he was drafted, on top of his mental health issues

Being a lineman is similar to being in a combat arms unit in the military. You have to have mental and physical toughness or your fellow players/soldiers will hound you to get out. You need people you can count on to help carry the load and fight through the pain and adversity to win. The military would punish people who admitted they had mental health issues and needed help as well.

then what Incognito did was fine.

You can't have it both ways in this situation

On THIS site, you had N O T H I N G to say about Martin in any of the MULTIPLE threads discussing the incident when it went down.  The only thing you had to say about that event in 2013 was:


You have absolutely no idea of who here took what sides and why.
But years later you want to act like you were the only defender?  FOH

This is a distortion of the truth. The fact is that he gave the money away freely but then decided not to go with the other players and wanted the money returned and was refused because the money had already been spent. If this causes you mental anguish you're not a wimp you're simply immature.

Congrats on using two fallacies.
1. You have moved the goal posts as you original post was about your perception of how the mental health issues of Williams and Martin were handled. That has nothing to do with Incognito did or said
2. This is not an either or fallacy. There are mtiple ways to view the situation. Incognito's behavior has little to do with how the pubic or members of this board view the issues that Williams and Martin had

Whether you want to admit it or not, Martin had a plethora of options available to him as a grown man to overcome the issues he had with Incognito. The route Martin took is perceived by many as the least desired path. Personally I think he should have stood up to Richie, first by saying no to paying for something, and secondly verbally or even physically if that is what it took. Richie is a dick that will only respect strength.

You sure don't seem to be expressing much sympathy towards Williams's mental health issues he dealt with as much as you are trying to make this thread about you.

This is verifiably false.

You know, d4l, you bring up some interesting topics on occasion that would garner discussion, but so often they're draped in a ridiculous false premise that you get shouted down before anyone can share ideas.

There's a discussion to be had about the legacy of bullygate, for sure, but you most certainly weren't outspoken in support of Martin on this site.  And other people were.  So, to frame it that you were his sole protector, is, frankly, some bullshit.

Indeed.  I think the legacy of bullygate combined with a conversation about how the "moral code" of the NFL is so vastly different from the "workplace etiquette" of almost every other career is something that could lead to a very interesting conversation here.   But to drape it in a ridiculous false premise as you pointed out ruins any chance of a good discussion.  That would be akin to saying, "Let's compare and contrast the leadership styles and political philosophies of Donald Trump and Joe Biden.  I shall make the first comment.  Joe Biden is a senile old house plant that hates America and sniffs the hair of little girls like a pedophile.  Discuss."     LOL   That is essentially what D4L does whenever he offers up a worthy topic and drapes it in ridiculousness before it even has a chance to get it off the ground. 

And D4L, if what Spider and Dave said is true about you not having said much of anything in Martin's defense back when all this went down and now you are claiming to be the only one here who was on Martin's side back then.......well that is a true douchenozzle liar stunt to pull and you should be ashamed of yourself.  Not being knowledgeable is one thing. Intentionally lying is something completely different. 

I'm waiting for the ridiculousness, seems pretty accurate  >:D

And so it begins, LMFAO....

LOL, I see what you did there.  And believe me, I have some very strong negative opinions about both Biden and Trump.   But the ridiculousness I was referring to meant that none of those comments about Biden had anything to do with comparing and contrasting the leadership styles or political philosophies of him and Trump.  I was reframing what D4L is famous for in here.   

Looking back on Bullygate, I think

1) The Dolphins had weak leadership and were ill-equipped to handle that situation (and others), thus they deferred to Incognito and let the inmates run the asylum.
2) Incognito was a meathead, but set up to fail by the organization, because he wasn't properly trained as a coach to motivate his teammates and there was no oversight for his bad behavior.  He is to blame, but he really shouldn't have been put in that position anyway.
3) Martin had some mental issues, but I'm not gonna sit here and diagnose the man.  He may have been able to succeed in an environment that recognized that and helped him overcome it, but I don't think we have any way of knowing that one way or the other.  I think the same is true of Incognito -- he may have been able to have been a strong leader if guided properly -- we'll never know.

Martin also seemed to not be a stellar player and Incognito was pretty good, so I guess that's why fans, other players, and coaches sorta just looked the other way.

I think you summed it up pretty well there, Dave.  The only thing I would add is something that I just explained to D4L in a private message.  The NFL (and to a lesser degree the military) is a testosterone fueled, knuckle dragging organizational culture for the most part.  What is perceived as weakness, be that mental/emotional weakness or physical weakness (softness) on a football team is considered poisonous to the goal of winning football games.   I'm not saying I think that is a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying it is the way that it is.   If other players (especially old school mentality players) think a teammate is weak and that they are going to hurt the chances of winning ballgames, the weak sort of become the wounded prey and the self appointed enforcers like Incognito become the predator.   With the intent to drive the weak player off the team one way or another.  And often, coaches look the other way like Philbin did because they buy into that same mentality.  They look at harassing the weak as "making them tougher".   Honestly, I think if the media hadn't found out what was going on and blowing the story up in the press, the Dolphins would have been content to just look the other way until Martin either toughened up or was cut for failing to do so.   The NFL is so unique that you can't take standard corporate culture expectations such as supporting those who are struggling, common courtesy, professionalism and try to apply them to the NFL.  They are worlds apart.  The ultimate apples and oranges comparison. 

I think it was even more than that, IMO Incognito had his own mental health issues.  If you review his college and professional career, and based on my thousands of hours watching television, I think he could be partially diagnosed as psychotic, among other issues.

I think that whole blowup he had at the funeral home pretty much sealed the deal on him being a nut job. 

Oh God. What did he do at a funeral home?

I need to head out for work so I don't have time to look it up right now.  But if I remember correctly, I think his dad died and of course Richie made some kind of big scene at the funeral home and got in some kind of trouble for it.   If i'm not remembering that story correctly, someone please correct me. 

He wanted to cut off his deceased father's head after the viewing and when the funeral home refused, he threatened to go to his car and get guns and shoot them.  Nowadays, you just can't say shit like that.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/police-report-richie-incognito-wanted-to-cut-off-his-dead-fathers-head-at-funeral-home/

Up to this point you were doing pretty good....

This here I think is a lot of guesswork. It's possible that the coaches and players looked the other way while it was happening because of the playing ability of Martin and Incognito, but I don't think we know this or even that's been suggested, it's merely a theory you have. There's a million reasons why the abuse might have been allowed to continue. Fans didn't even know it was happening until afterwards so what they thought has nothing to do with why it went on or continued to go. Players and coaches? We just don't know. We weren't there and you'd probably get different answers from different coaches and different players as to the reasons. I suspect that many didn't realize that Martin was struggling with the abuse as I suspect the type of stuff that was happening happens quite frequently and nothing is ever really done about it. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Incognito's MO and it was allowed everywhere he went but in Martin's case it blew up in his face. I'm not condoning Incognito's behavior, it's terrible. I'm also not condoning players or coaches behavior it's also terrible but I suspect that Incognito's gotten away with it most of his life because the victims of his abuse simply dealt with the situation better than Martin did which is why he continued to do it and why no one else stepped in and that's the real tragedy here. Someone should have stopped Incognito a LONG time before this happened but no one did and that's why this happened. It took someone finally quitting because of the abuse for everyone to realize it should have never been allowed to go on at all.

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. There's a reason that's a saying. It's because it's true.

Thanks for the story. Wow. He needs to be put away somewhere for research. I can't imagine being a cop, and having to attempt to put a guy as big, strong, and psychotic as Incognito in cuffs. No thanks.

Did you read where once Incognito was allowed to cool off he offered his credit card to the funeral home? That's what a good cop does. Defuse the situation, not simply try to arrest the guy.

You'd need to Taze him and probably more than once.

Yeah, I noticed that part of the story too. I was speaking more in terms of generalities, but that is a good strategy to make things easier on everybody.

In fairness to Incognito, haven't we all at one time or another demanded our dad's head in a funeral home and threatened to shoot the mortician if they didn't comply?     :D

Geez, somehow I missed this story.  I think the last crazy thing I heard of him doing was taking a bat or hammer to his own vehicle.  This is the type of behavior where government needs to step in and take away all of his guns, and not allow him to purchase any guns due to his mental health status.

I didn't say anything at the time because I was afraid of backlash on the board if I spoke up in defense of Martin.  However, I do remember saying things in his defense after the whole thing went down.

I know what that feels like, because I have a similar experience.

I was the only person on this site who wanted to fire Jeff Ireland.  However, I didn't speak up at the time because I didn't want to be criticized.
But I definitely feel that I should get credit for being the only person in favor of firing him when everyone else on this site was against it.

When did you want him fired?   IMO, he should've been escorted out the door the year Sparano was fired.   You can't win by forcing shotgun weddings between coaches and GMs.  If you fire your coach and keep your GM (or vice versa), it limits your candidate pool.

I don't think you're picking up what Spider is putting down.

Holy shit, man. 

How am I only just hearing about this now?

Same here.  People on the board are already really jealous of the fact that you and I know so much more about football than they do.  That is why they mock you.  Their jealousy of your football insight makes them all confrontational with you.  I remember that before the last Super Bowl, you thought that Tampa Bay was going to beat the Chiefs 31-9 and that Brady would throw for 3 touchdowns and 201 yards.  But you didn't say it publicly for fear of the backlash on the board.  

I remember hearing about a crazy incident involving guns at his father's funeral but I think I'd remember about the head thing. I'm guessing it was as publicized.