The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

It took over a year to finally get everything turned on and done. 

I can see that I'm generating power but it will be a while until I can compare bills.  I'm so relieved it's finally done.

I've been interested in Solar for a while but every time I've looked at the numbers, I couldn't justify the initial investment. Sure, I'd save a couple hundred dollars from my electric bill, but I'd have an even bigger loan payment for the installation. I might break even in around 15 to 20 years. What's the point? If I was going to build a new home, then I'd do it in a heartbeat and roll it up into the Mortgage, but switch to Solar? Can't see it.

The way the numbers worked for me was that I get my investment back after about 11 years.  Then, it's free electricity.  Good deal.

Also, in my case, if I were to finance the panels, they'd pretty much be offset by the electricity savings.  Have someone come do an estimate for you.  There is a 30% tax credit.

I have a solar water heater on the roof of the house I inherited. But my Dad had the valves shut off going to the tank water heater. I asked my brother about it and he said that he thought my Dad told him there was a slow leak somewhere and it was leaking off the side of the roof. I've been meaning to get it pressure tested, but it hasn't been a priority since it hasn't been used in a few years.

Fast forward to last Monday and I woke up to a flooded garage. The 20 year old regular water heater finally bit the dust. Anyhow, when the plumbing guy got here he said he didn't have the correct mixing valve parts. So we decided to just do a straight install on the new water heater. So he just cut out all of that pipe spaghetti that was there to accommodate the solar water heater on the roof. He just terminated the 2 pipes coming out of the garage celling from the solar water heater and put quarter turn valves on them incase me or the next owner wants to hook it back up. Anyhow, $2400 later I own a new water heater LMFAO. If I would have thought to replace it earlier I would have saved about $750. Can't really comparison shop when you have a guy standing there that charges $100 just for the service call.

At this point, I don't really know if it's worth it to bother to test and fix the solar water heater on the roof. Since I don't plan on staying here more than a couple more years, I'm not sure the money and effort will be worth my while.


EDIT, any of you guys know about water heaters? When I took a shower this morning I was out of hot water by the end of my shower. Can't I just turn up the temperature on both elements on the new water heater and that should increase hot water time? I'm thinking they're set on the lower range from the factory.

Yes, increasing the temperature on the water heater will use less hot water to heat your shower to your desired temperature.

The drawbacks are 1) increased energy usage by your water heater and 2) increased risk of scalding (if you have children or the elderly in your home).

It's the same size water heater, so I figure it shouldn't increase energy usage any more than the 20 year old one. They're probably more efficient now anyhow and it won't have 20 years worth of build up inside reducing the heating capacity. As for scalding, it's just me and the inherited geriatric diabetic cat LMAO...

There are online places that will do it for you. I've done it. Several times. My house doesn't get enough direct sunlight to make my electric bills even out the cost of the panels. Not even close really. I'd be losing money for the first 15 to 20 years. Hell I might not live that long let alone keep my house that long. Maybe it makes more sense in Florida. In Texas, don't really see a lot of people doing it. Not sure if that's because of the costs, the sunlight, whatever but it's just not the be all and end all that we'd all like it to be at this point.

there are solar companies that do what is called ppa (power purchase agreement) they own the panels and sell you the electricity the panels produce at a discount vs the power company.  you start saving money from month 1 and there is almost no risk.

The cost/benefit analysis turns almost entirely on your electricity bill.  My general rule of thumb is if you average less than $150/month for electricity over the year, and you're not planning to get an EV, it's probably not even worth considering solar.

My costs have also gone up greatly.  I'm sure we're just using more power than we did (not sure why).  But here's the usage by year for the current house.  I'm only including full years that we've lived here.

2019: $154.24/mo
2020: $160.99/mo
2021: $172.00/mo
2022: no data
2023: $224.27/mo

I'm just thinking that it's probably because I work from mostly from home ever since COVID.  A/C is now on 24/7 whereas I would turn it hotter when I went to work.  I also have a big fish tank running pumps and am running my PC all day long.   

Dave, I got solar at the end of 2017.  When I was doing my cost/benefit analysis (CBA), I pulled my electricity bills for 4 years.  My average electricity price per kW/h increased by 50% from 0.14 in 2013 to 0.21 in 2017.  I'm sure it would be radically higher now.

Electricity costs are definitely going up.

Instead of just looking at $$$$ look at kWh per month.  Some of it could be increase in electricity use, but some of it is probably an increase in cost per kWh. 

^ I have no doubt that it's both.

I do not have my cost/kwh readily available.  I was looking at my budgetary spending by year.  I'm sure I could look it up though.

And the amount of direct sunlight you get. If you don't have a roof with a lot of space for panels that's pointed in the right direction with no trees around to block the sunlight etc, then the panels just can't produce enough electricity to make it worth it. This is step 1 in determining if solar is right for you.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

Here's the results using my address and selecting the loan option:

Up Front cost: $0
Total payments over 20 years: $79,335
Total cost of electricity over 20 years: $58,731
Total 20 year saving: -$20,604.

After 20 years I'd have lost $20,000. How is this a good deal for me? Now if I buy it outright, then yeah I could save around $11,000 after 20 years with a break even around 16 years into it, but I don't have around $50K to spend on solar at the moment and if I did I certainly wouldn't spend it on Solar as there are a lot better investment options.

^ The national average for a solar install is just over 20 grand. Is installation really expensive where your live or is it a huge "full off grid" install?

One of the biggest problem for solar, as I see it, is the insane cost of energy storage if you can't get a good net metering deal where you live. I could get twice as much from my installation if I had batteries.

There is also a 30% tax break that you should factor in.

I believe the website claims they factor in all tax breaks, but I could be wrong or the website could be wrong.

Hell if I know, but if you check the website it says that it factors everything in so I don't know how they are coming up with those numbers. 20 grand sounds pretty low for a full solar install though. I believe this is not just the panels, but also a storage system. Panels without a storage system is pretty much a waste of money in my opinion.

Pappy, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Getting a storage system makes no financial sense unless you're living in the wilderness or something and there is no electrical grid.

Solar panels for a full sized home are about 40K.
Then the government credits back about 12K of that.

You may pay more or less depending on how much you need and price variation and stuff, but that's the general idea.

Buying storage doesn't make sense at all.

There is some value to a storage system.

First is if you live in an area that is subject to power outages, like CA or TX.  I have 1 Tesla Powerwall, which is enough to power my home from sundown to sunup (if skies are clear).

Second is if you live in an area with net metering and time-of-use billing.  For example, electricity is most expensive for me from 3pm-7pm (both in cost and credit).  So during that time, my home runs off my battery, and any energy generated by my solar panels goes back into the grid, running my meter in reverse at the time when I get maximum credits for doing so.  Then in the morning, my home runs off (cheaper rate) grid power until my solar panels charge my battery back to full.  (During events like fire season when outages are more likely, this mode of operation is automatically cancelled and I maintain maximum battery reserve at all times.)

^ This is a weird situation.  I believe my electricity costs the same whenever I use it.

Also, how much is your wall.  The Tesla wall was like $17K when I looked it up.  And it took 2 to run the house.

Pappy, in what State do you live?

When I bought the Powerwall in 2017, it was $10k installed.  However, CA had a rebate designed to get these kinds of batteries out in service, specifically to reduce the load on the grid during peak times (i.e. exactly how I'm using mine).  So after rebate, it was about $5500 installed.

That's pricey, but the problem with Powerwalls is that Tesla no longer sells them directly if you aren't also buying panels or solar roof. Their price is aroubd 14k for a single, 22k for two. Everything above that is reseller markup and installation.

When we were spec'ing our system, it just didn't make sense to get storage. We opted for a small installation that basically just takes the top off the electricity bills. It probably reduces our bills by around 30%. If we had storage, we could be close to fully self-sufficient 4 months a year. But that would have tripled the cost of the total install and massively increased the number of years until breakeven. If we had gone with storage, it would have made sense to increase the number of panels as well.

Instead the plan was to buy an electric car and try to optimize charging of that. Our driving needs are easily met by decent BEVs. With many new electric cars now having vehicle-to-grid, that would further increase our flexibility. We haven't quite gotten around to buying the car yet, though.

I have to eat a little bit of crow here and realize that the laws and situations are apparently much different for different parts of the country.

Where I live, in S. Florida, the only reason you would get a battery is so that you would have power in cases where the grid went out, which is basically a hurricane.  At the time I looked, running my home was 1 battery for the house and another just for the A/C.  The cost of the batteries alone for my home was 34K, if I were to get the Tesla ones.  But there were some other kinds that were less.

In general, people who have solar here do not have batteries.  We have 1 to 1 net metering where you feed your power into the grid and use it from the grid at no* cost.



* plus whatever small service fee for using the grid

I have 20 panels installed and the whole system ran me about 20k .. it's passed inspection and all I'm waiting for is the electric company to switch out my meter to allow for net metering.

my monthly cost for the panels is $120 / month over 20 years .. i'm estimated to produce 110% of my electricity use .. so in the summer with the AC running it'll be cheaper to pay 120 than it will be to pay $350 / month in electricity costs.

I get savings day 1

Batteries only improve the CBA if you have time-of-use (TOU) billing.  Without TOU peak/off-peak pricing, there's no financial benefit to time-shifting your grid usage, so the only reason to buy a battery is, as y'all mentioned, to protect against service interruption.

Note that in most areas, if you do not have a battery and the grid goes out midday, you cannot run your home off of solar panels, as this would present a danger to any utility workers trying to restore the grid.

That is correct here in CT. if the power goes out your solar panels are a fancy roof decoration until it comes back on

Unless you live in an area without net metering (or bad net metering). Then batteries allow you to store the daytime production when you're not at home anyway and use it in the evenings/mornings when your usage spikes, but production is lower.

Good point.

I live in Grand Prairie, Texas which is near Dallas, so the Northern part of Texas and yes it does make a difference where you live. Obviously the southern tip of Florida is a different situation from most of the US. I'm curious what that website I mentioned shows for you Dave. All you have to do is put in your address and monthly electric bill and then select if you want to buy, lease or loan. Try it and see. I'm curious how accurate it is.

I just used your website calculator.

The install cost to purchase said that it was 56K.   I paid about 41K. 

I do know that the cost of the materials did go up some after I started the project and I was locked in to the contract rate.  That was a little over a year ago.  I doubt it would be 15K more though.

It does list the Federal Tax Credit accurately, though, in the estimate.

Not to mention that you don't know what's going to happen five or ten years down the road.   If you planned on staying in that house for the rest of your life, then maybe it's a good long term investment but people don't do that anymore these days.

The panels would increase the sale price of the house by more than the cost of the panels, I would think.

Seriously consider PPA, no upfront money.  The solar company owns the panels.  In exchange for access to your roof they sell you the electric for considerably less.

Eversource (my electric company) came yesterday and replace my meter for a net meter. So i can turn on my solar panels today .. *woot*

Update - I am now running on solar, i see no difference obviously, power is power .. but hopefully my bills will be alot lower

I'm not sure what this means for me, as I haven't seen a bill yet, but my highest day of production was 47.16 kWh.  My lowest day was 29.90 kWh.  They came on consecutive days.

Unless you are already maxing out your capacity, you should see increased daily production as we approach summer and the sun's rays are at a more direct angle.

This might sound ignorant, but you don't know what you don't know until you ask, but...

What are the panels actually collecting?  Radiation?  Heat?  Light?

Electromagnetic radiation in the form of visible light.

Slightly more geeky answer, other than "light":

Sunlight contains light of a bunch of different colors (as seen in a rainbow or through a prism) and solar panels actually only use a fairly narrow range of colors (frequencies or wavelength, if you prefer), with the rest either being reflected by the panel or absorbed and turned into heat. That's the main reason why solar panels are only about 20% efficient at converting incoming light to electricity.

We can actually make photovoltaic cells (aka solar panels) that are more than 3x as efficient if only a single wavelength (color) of light is used. Combining a bunch of different cells that use light of a different color isn't easy, since the sunlight would then need to pass through the top cells (that use one color) first. This reduces efficiency and increases costs (which are already high), making the gains smaller than the ideal.

Heat also decreases the efficiency of solar panels and stacking layers usually directly results in a warmer panel.

The latter is also why you can expect your production to fall as much as 20% during heatwaves compared to cool, windy days with the same amount of sunlight.

As a side note, you can actually get "solar panels" that use heat instead of light, although they are usually specifically referred to as solar *thermal* panels. They look a lot like regular solar panels, except a bit more "plain". Solar thermal panels are incredibly efficient, something like 70% with good sunlight, but the downside is that you are only generating heat, not electricity. So it's great for warming your water, but that's about it. Converting heat directly to electricity is ridiculously inefficient and even with the best lab-grade kit, you would wind up with something more inefficient than regular solar panels.

Yesterday was a sunny day and i produced 49 kWh, that seems like a decent baseline for april this far north

It was overcast and rainy here and I produced 32.

It's interesting that cool days are better.  I am interested in getting some monthly averages to see.

How many panels do you guys have?

I have 38 panels with the goal of producing 106% of my electricity usage.

^^^ Just curious, what is the size of each panel (how many feet wide by how many feet long)?

Also, when I think about solar I often wonder how long will they last? Are they guaranteed for a number of years?  What potential costs would there be for repairs and maintenance?  I live up north, but if I lived in FLA like some of you guys I'd worry about a hurricane ripping them off; would they be covered by homeowners' insurance?  Any additional insurance cost to cover them?  I wonder if ones sold up north have a mechanism to melt the snow off of them after snowstorms?  It seems you would want to have a pretty new roof before you install them, otherwise I think it would be a hassle to remove them to install a new roof, this could add to cost if you decide to replace your roof earlier than necessary.

Snow melts off of them pretty quickly.
I have 20 panels and they're these:
HANWHA 400 (Q.PEAK DUO BLK ML-G10.a+ 400)

400 watt rated 1.8m x 1m in size

Not sure about the insurance issues, but longevity is not something that is a big issue even for normal panels (if you got some off aliexpress, well, who knows). Mean degradation is around 0.5% per year. That is, your peak output is still 90% of "new" after 20 years.

The system isn't entirely zero-maintenance (what is) and one of the bigger issues is the inverter which typically has a lifespan of 10-15 years. (There are different configurations, such as using "microinverters" for each panel individually, that last considerably longer - upsides and downsides to everything, so the best solution varies by use case.)

The cost of a new inverter is cheap compared to a total install, but not exactly *cheap*. For an install size like Fau's, we're talking several thousand dollars (last I checked, anyway).

As an update, I used 439 KWH last month, and after 10 days i've generated 321 KWH using solar, so i'm on a pretty good pace to break even for the year (last august I used 1300 KWH because of the central AC)

Over my 30 day cycle, I have generated 1142 kWh.  I don't know what I've used or what the bill will look like.  I think I probably will have some spillover from before so I don't expect to have an answer until the NEXT bill after this one.

Check this out. Maybe adding solar and wind power together could do the trick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnSZ0MHIcvs

I got my first full electric bill.

$36.55

In CA, we have a grid connection fee that makes the minimum electric bill around $20.  Do you have something similar?

Yes, this is the breakdown:

New Charges
Rate: RS-1 RESIDENTIAL SERVICE
Base charge: $9.48
Minimum base bill charge: $6.76
Non-fuel: (First 1000 kWh at $0.094630) $11.73
(Over 1000 kWh at $0.104550)
Fuel: (First 1000 kWh at $0.032240) $4.00
(Over 1000 kWh at $0.042240)
Electric service amount 31.97
Gross receipts tax (State tax) 0.82
Franchise fee (Reqd local fee) 1.96
Utility tax (Local tax) 1.77
Taxes and charges 4.55
Regulatory fee (State fee) 0.03
Total new charges $36.55

That bill makes absolutely no sense.
Which numbers do you add to get to $36.55?

If I am reading it correctly 31.97 is a subtotal of everything above it   31.97 + everything below is 36.55.  but that is just eyeballing did actually do the math.

Edit taxes are also listed and subtotaled

Base charge: $9.48
Minimum base bill charge: $6.76
Non-fuel: (First 1000 kWh at $0.094630) $11.73
Fuel: (First 1000 kWh at $0.032240) $4.00
-------------------------------------------------------
Electric service amount 31.97

Gross receipts tax (State tax) 0.82
Franchise fee (Reqd local fee) 1.96
Utility tax (Local tax) 1.77
------------------------------------------------------
Taxes and charges 4.55

Regulatory fee (State fee) 0.03
-----------------------------------------------------
Total new charges $36.55

31.97 + 4.55 + .03 = 36.55

^ seems legit

I don't know why "base charge" or "minimum base bill charge" are separate line items or what they represent.

I'm just guessing, but it seems like the actual electricity cost is the $11.73 and the $4.00.  My minimum possible bill is probably around $20.

For some reason, I missed this question.  I would estimate that each panel is about 2.5 wide x 5 feet tall.

Got my first electric bill.

-177.04

Update on some recent bills:

Aug 2022
$253.54

Aug 2023
$98.61

Savings:
$154.93

------

July 2022
$209.67

July 2023
$70.47

Savings:
$139.20

------

June 2022
$186.08

June 2023
$35.42

Savings:
$150.66

Did you buy the solar panels outright, or did you finance?
If you financed, what's the monthly payment, and for how long?

I bought outright.

Last july my electric bill was $230, this july it was -$17
I'll know the august vs august comparison any day now

What's the warranty on the system?

20 years, I believe.

I got my September bill and something is weird -- it's too good to be true.

September 2022:
$276.34

September 2023:
$35.82

Savings: $240.52


I don't know why this month is so low (I will double check when I get the actual bill) -- I am wondering if this might only be a half-month and they are switching me to a month's-end type of billing.

My kids did go back to school so there is definitely less A/C, doors open, devices running all day, etc.  But also, it finally started to curb temperature a little bit, while we have had mostly sunny days.  So, perhaps this is how it's supposed to be.  ...who knows.

more than likely it's how it's supposed to be. I'm sitting at a $500 credit with my electric company from having solar running this summer. I haven't paid an electric bill since may.

Update:

I still don't have 12 months of data, but it's February, which is when I do my financing.

One year of electricity, pre-solar, averaged $224.27 per month.
Over the last 12 months, the average was $77.01

However, that still accounts for about a month and a half without solar.  Over the past 10 months, which have been full-solar, the average has been $52.46.

It's saving about $170 per month, a bit over $2000 per year.

before solar, i averaged about $170 electric
after solar i average about -$70 on my bill
and i get a check from the electric company for about $150 every quarter.

my solar financing is $120 / month, so net i'm down $50 / month and get $50 / month back in a direct deposit to my bank account based on production. So my real expense for electricity and solar panel financing is $70 / month before any tax rebates or incentives.

Just curious, if your solar financing is $120, how long is this for; or more importantly what was the total cost for purchase and installation of the solar panel system. What tax credits, if any, did you get to defray the cost?

Solar power interests me, but for the few people I have seen get it, it doesn't make sense because of the long period to recoup your initial outlay.  If it can be financed with zero down (or most of your downpayment recouped via tax credits) and you are "net" ahead on monthly bills, as in your example, then it would make sense.

40k total, 20 year financing %2 interest rate, 0 down
i've collected no rebates or tax credits yet because my system went live in 2023, so it'll be part of this year's taxes.
i get 30% of the total cost in tax rebate i get to claim this year (which i will choose to go directly to paying off the loan)

my monthly payment assumes i want the rebate to go toward the loan (that's a choice i made when signing up for the project) if i choose to take the lump sum rebate my monthly payment would go up accordingly (i think $170 / month) but i'd rather pay $120 than 170.

Thanks for the info.  This makes sense to me.  Nothing down, low interest rate on the loan, and you have a net savings month to month.  Considering utility rates are only going to rise makes it even more beneficial.  I wonder if the loan is transferrable if you sell the house, probably not; but that really doesn't matter the increase in value to the house would probably generate enough of an increase to pay off the loan.

In your cases you've look at, is it varying based on their location or their circumstances or what?

For me, it looked to be an estimated 11 1/2 year payback and then it's gravy after that, plus value to your house, helping the environment, etc.  It turns out that it's about the same as investing all of the money and getting a 6% return.

It's been a couple years, actually probably 5 or more. but a combination of issues.  I live in upstate NY so we don't use as much electricity as those in the south because we don't have to run our AC as much, so that's part of it.  Another is that in the winter the sun is lower in the sky for us so less daylight to capture the sun.  Additionally, I don't recall the great financing that Fau has with a low interest rate.  Also, if I recall correctly the tax credit wasn't a refundable credit, so unless you have a tax liability as much as the credit you are entitled to, then you don't get the full credit.  I live in a relatively low income area where wages aren't great, so some wouldn't get the full benefit of the tax credit.  I remember doing some calculations back then and it was like a 15-20 year period just to break even.  So it's really a combination of issues.

For you I can see where it's a beneficial deal. One thing I was thinking about was using more electric heat in the winter and cutting down on using my natural gas fired furnace.  Natural gas is relatively cheap to heat with, but more rural areas near me that heat with fuel oil that's delivered by truck is verrry expense, I could see them greatly benefitting if they could switch to more electric heat if it was solar.

the loan transfers, the panels belong to the house so i guess it does raise my property value to have this already done

I'm assuming you have to pay it off if you sell before the terms are up?

no the loan transfers with the solar panels to the buyer, they take over the payments, the transfer agreement and buyer qualification are all parts of the closing

There is another option down here where you don't own the panels at all, but the company puts them on for free, but then you are required to buy your electrical from that company, which is less than the regular power company.  And if you move, the requirement to still use that company stays with the house.

I think that's like a 20 year lease and then after that, there's a buyout option.

I've heard of that here where I live also.  The solar company uses your roof for their panels and you get a break on the price of electricity - not a huge benefit but it's something.

I think the benefit is pretty significant considering there is no money down or risk....like 20% cheaper or something.  But you don't get the benefit of tax credits or the value of the panels.

The downside, too, is that you're locking into that choice. 

Yeah the potential risks, maybe a small chance, is if the company goes out of business and you are stuck with these things on your roof and maybe they stop working because nobody maintains them.  I also look at whether you need to replace your roof because it's worn out so you may incur added expense with taking them down and putting them back up.  I think I mentioned earlier I would want to have a new, or newer, roof shingles before putting up the panels.  But overall, I agree with you Dave there's not much risk considering the potential benefits.

Is it locked in to a fixed rate?

I don't have my rates from 2017 when I installed my panels, only from 2013 when I got my first EV.  But comparing my 2013 electricity rates to 2024, the cost per kWH is between double and triple what it was 11 years ago.  "20% off" would be a pretty lame deal.

No, I don't think so.

I think they just sell you electricity at whatever their cost is, and that cost is less than the traditional electric company.  But I don't know the specifics about how it's guaranteed to be cheaper.  It was never an option I considered for my situation, so I didn't do more than just hear the inital general idea.

Seeing this got me thinking:

2% interest is crazy low.  Even high-yield savings accounts are 5% with zero risk.  CDs are higher than that.  It seems to me that you'd be throwing money away (and a decent amount of it) to pay that loan off ahead of time, unless there was some other incentive to paying it off early.

yeah, i didn't pay anything off early .. i'll keep that 2% going