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I don't have an answer for this and I'm not even sure what my question is yet, but I feel like the NFL has two things at play that go at odds.

They are more concerned about player safety, which essentially means limiting what defense players can do and where they can do it, and by increasing penalties for these things.

Unfortunately, this leads to players using these rules to their competitive advantage.  Sometimes, it's egregious, but other times, it's just the nature of what happens when you do things like this.

The obvious stuff is like "the fake slide" which we saw outlined in college.  (Maybe the NFL too) Also in this, I'd say pretending to kneel in the endzone.  Now, the NFL calls any non-football action as a dead ball, in terms of return.  I don't think you can fake the kneel or the fair catch.  Anything meant to look like you're giving yourself up is giving yourself up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bb0n4pNwBw

Next is the fake kneel.  Though it's a beloved play, I think the fake spike also falls into this.  I don't see how you allow this, unless you want these linemen to get blown up with blitzes.  It is spiritually the same as giving yourself up, to line up for the kneel and then not do it.  I a defensive player blitzed on a kneel down, there'd be fighting and possibly flags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O499y-lFVy0

To a lesser degree is the QB in space, either running for the first down while simultaneously getting the protection of the last minute slide that they may or may not do.  Or the play where the QB runs to the sideline where 20 years ago they would be tattooed in-bounds.  Now, we have to allow the QB to safely reach the sideline, but sometimes they decide to turn it upfield at the last second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l25k792rPE

And I know this is a controversial play and this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum since Kiko is considered a dirty player, but here's a case where it's 3rd and 10 in the red zone and Flaco is running for the first down.  Kiko has to assume he's gonna slide.  If Kiko doesn't come at him at full speed and tackle him, Flaco can just get the yardage.  Flaco gets the benefit BOTH of the protection of the slide, but also he is allowed to make a race for the first down at the sticks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488

Lastly, this is just a simple play action, but it's so well done that the defender gets tricked into hitting the QB.  But what can you do?  If the QB is tricking you into thinking he has the ball, shouldn't you reasonably be able to hit the guy that's pretending to still be in play.  It's not like he lets up on the play action....the QB is back there bobbing like he's looking to go downfield.  It's among the best play action fakes I've ever seen, but it's a no-win scenario for the defense.

https://twitter.com/Nate_Tice/status/1704263692429512986

One last example that I don't yet have an example of is a turnover or a WR catch where a player has body language that he was down, stands up, waits for everyone to stop, and then takes off running.


I guess the question is, what's to be done?

I didn't realize that the fake slide was now-Steelers QB Kenny Pickett.  Interesting.

I don't think the fake kneel would ever happen in the NFL.  But this famous clip kind of also speaks to your conversation.  Does this fit your narrative or is this just lack of attention to detail by the defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MiD6no269s

Also, was Kiko Alonso really known as a dirty player?  I always considered him a class act and not dirty which is why that hit on Flacco was so controversial.  Had that been Vontaze Burfict that his Flacco the exact same, he'd have been banned from football.

The rest of the fans of other teams called Kiko dirty on Reddit, but that's all I had to go by.

And yes, your "fake fair catch" thing is the same.

I think that any play where "everybody stops" and the player with the ball is not actively improving their position, that should be a dead ball.

Then it becomes a judgment call by the officials and opens it up to non-reviewable inadvertent whistles and potential officials making irreversible bad calls on purpose.  I'm sure you see the slippery slope.

The NFL is trying to take judgment out of the game and make everything black and white concrete rules.  That's why they have had sucha hard time defining what is a "catch" in the past 10-15 years.  what the heck is a "football move?" 

But to your point, there's always going to be people finding ways to skirt the rules and use them to your advantage.  I think something needs to be done about the last-second QB slide, but i don't know what it is.  It definitely gives the QB on the run an unfair advantage to just pull a flag out at the end and taking a big hit.  But also, defenders have to pay attention.  The Goff clip at the end is just stupidity on that player's part.  The other 10 guys on defense weren't fooled.  Teams run play action 200 times a week and this is the only jerkoff that didn't "get it." 

IMO, it should be the same judgment call as "forward progress" or "a football move".  You know it when you see it.  A player is expected to run N/S in space.  If they aren't doing that, the play should be whistled dead immediately.

So if a player runs toward the sideline to try to get around a defender, blow the whistle?

I know that's not what you meant but you see how it gets hard to define.  They didn't blow the whistle when Dolhpins defenders threw Mike Gesicki backwards 5 yards and allowed him to lateral it to a lineman.  Judgment call - forward progress was clearly stopped and it was a instant replay away from being a real problem.

I mean, yeah -- if a player is making a motion like they're angling out of bounds, you either have to call that player out of bounds or allow the defender to hit that player like he's going to stay in bounds.

You don't allow defenses to shove QBs out of bounds anymore and hits where even a toe is on the white are flagged for 15 yards.  I'm all for protecting QBs, but you can't have it both ways.

The 2022 rulebook actually added some phrasing that addresses the fake slide:


(The two "simulates" stipulations are new.)

The rulebook is also very clear, that in order to get "slide protection", you have to initiate the slide before contact is imminent.

The "Approved Rulings" section clarifies this further with some examples, including one stating that you cannot gain further advantage by sliding *or diving head first*, even if you are not touched. Another AR has a runner giving himself up by sliding after the defender has "committed himself to making contact" (no foul on contact, except for contact to the head with the defender's helmet, shoulder, or forearm).

There's a further rule that you have to treat a sliding (head or feet first) player as a defenseless player and thus avoid contact to the extent possible.

I'm not sure when the current wording of those rules were put in place, but Kiko certainly didn't do anything to attempt to avoid contact and he hit Flacco in the head. Both are penalties. The 2019 version added the "no launching" clause, but the Kiko hit was in '17, so it didn't violate that as well. 2018 added "lowering the helmet to hit", so Kiko escapes that one as well. 2017 did already have the "using the crown of the helmet", which it certainly looks like is what Kiko hit him with, so I'd say he probably violated 3 rules on that hit (didn't attempt to avoid contact, used the crown of his helmet, hit a sliding player in the head).

I feel like these rules adequately cover the sliding players, quarterbacks trying to reach the sideline etc. Basically, with the new "heads up" tackling form, it should be possible for an alert defender to make the play without committing a penalty.

The fake kneel isn't allowed in the NFL:


As for fake-spiking, well, it's pretty rare, but I'm going to say that play until the whistle should have it covered.

That leaves "faking being down by body language", it's going to have to be pretty quick. The refs are going to blow the play dead unless it's obvious. For example, you cannot go to the ground untouched, get up, act like everything is cool, then suddenly sprint for the end zone. The rules state that if you do not attempt to advance after going down, you have given yourself up and the play is dead. So basically, you have to fake being down. But not so well that the refs see it. And you have to make sure you don't run afoul of the "begins to simulate touching the ground".

Yeah, Kiko deserved the flag for a host of reasons.  I'm not really arguing the result.

I just see that Flaco put himself in a position to get hit.  I do not believe the slide was immanent.  Flaco was trying to get to the down marker and started to slide once he realized a hit was immanent.

At :56. Flaco is fully standing and running, at the 14 yard line.  The hit from Kiko occurs at the 11 yard line.  Flaco waited until the very last second to slide.  Kiko has two choice -- hit him or assume he's gonna slide.  It's just such a tight play.  Flacco, IMO, didn't give himself up.  He tried for the first down and slid as a result of realizing he wasn't going to get it.

And like you said, it's helmet to helmet and a bunch of other stuff, so I'm not crying about the flag.

My bottom line is that QBs in the open field that are running need to be treated like RBs.  If the QB decides to make progress in the field of play, it's not fair to ask defenses not to hit them.

Kiko is allowed to hit him, if it's unavoidable, but he doesn't attempt to avoid. He could have attempted to make the tackle at the same instant he did, but without leading with his crown. Since the slide was so late, he would have just had to attempt to avoid contact. If he couldn't avoid it, fine, but there runner is defenseless (by definition), so you have to make the attempt. And you obviously can't hit him in the head etc.

All players with possession of the ball that are trying to advance the ball should be treated equally. The idea that the QB is some kind of untouchable magical unicorn is fruity as hell. It's football, if you're worried about your safety take a knee or play go play tennis

According to the rules, they are. None of the rules we're discussing here distinguish between a quarterback running with the ball and a running back.

A running back is allowed to slide just like a QB is.  They just aren't fragile flowers and would rather drop a shoulder and run a guy over.

Let's not pretend like QBs aren't treated differently than other players are LOL

They are treated differently when they drop back to pass.  Once they take off running, all bets are off.   

Although, to be fair, if a running back were to slide, the refs might just fall over from the shock and forget to whistle.

When an RB slides, it's almost always in a case where they are trying to run the clock.

I think the sideline question isn't really that complex.  Even if it's a non-QB, if they get hit out of bounds there's gonna be a flag, and when QBs run out of bounds, you only see a flag when the hit is egregiously late (like the Bengals did on Mahomes in the AFCCG last season).

I think the NFL needs to pick a lane....

E.g. Either it okay to tackle a QB that is heading out of bounds (but isn't actually out of bounds) OR it is illegal for a QB who is heading for the sideline to stay in bounds.

If a QB is pretending to keep the ball but has gotten rid of it, it should be perfectly legal to hit the QB.  Don't want to get hit, don't pretend. 

This is where I'd like things to go as well.

If you're going to offer QBs protection from taking a hit, you can't punish any time a player is being deceptive about their taking a hit.

So you're saying every run play means it's open season on the QB?  I mean, it could be play action...

If the QB has the ball it should be open season. It should be open season on anyone who has the ball. It's the defenders responsibility to figure out where the ball is.

Right, but if we say that deception eliminates the protection you get from not having the ball, and play action passes are allowed to exist, then any run play COULD be a play action pass, and defenders should murder the QB on every run play just in case.

All kidding aside, this deception angle is not workable.  Defenders are always tasked with determining who actually has the ball before they tackle someone; this is simply part of playing defense in tackle football.  Pump fakes exist, too... are we also going to say that the existence of really good pump fakes gives defenders license to smash a QB well after a pass is thrown?

I take your point about it being a defender's job to judge who has the ball always and that's fair, but I don't understand your example.  In the case of a pump fake, the QB still has the ball, so it is open season on them.

If a QB is really good at pump fakes, and they actually threw the ball away but you thought they still had it (say, a short pass when you're coming from the opposite side), you can't just light them up anyway.  If you tackle a (skill position) player who doesn't have the ball, you're gonna get flagged in almost all scenarios.  That's just football.

This happened yesterday on the first Buffalo drive - Kohou "shoved" Diggs out of bounds and got called.  At the time, I thought it was a soft shove but Diggs oversold it by tumbling into the bench and making a scene.

He shoved him after he was already out of bounds. There's no reason to put your hands on a player that's already out of bounds. None.

I mean, sure, i agree, but in that instance, he was "shoved" as he was going out of bounds.  You're taught to finish the play.  Next time you don't shove him, he puts on the brakes and juke you and runs another 20 yards.  

In real time, its a fraction of a second between stepping out of bounds and touching him on the back.

Just thought that call was a little weak, but it doesn't really matter.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but is "shoving" out of bounds really a concern for injury?  It seems a little bit like the NFL wants to say they're concerned about injury, and also have sidelines right up on the edge of the field.

You can give full effort right up to you see him go out of bounds but as soon as you see the player go out of bounds you have to let up. You can touch the player to maintain your balance or something, but that's not what happened. He gave him a pretty good shove, enough to the let guy know he was there and that was after he was already out of bounds. If all he does is run into him a bit and not shove him, it's not a penalty. You can say it's ticky tacky but when the refs allow that to go then bad things happen. He has to make an effort to let up and he didn't. Probably just a little frustration on his part, but still a penalty.