The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I recently saw a poll that only 38% of Democrats support Israel which is a historic low. I've also seen Democratic Socialists like Sarah Silverman has dropped their party affiliation and call them out because of their support of what Hamas has done. Since most of you in here are Progressive Democrats it has me wondering where everyone stands?

I support not killing people.

Like most things in life, there's a ton of nuance in the title and people think in absolutes. So i'll try my best here.

Hamas is horrible and the human species would be better off if they didn't exist.

Hamas uses palestinian civilians as human shields and puts Israel in an unwinnable position when it comes to  retaliation. Palestinians could stop this from happening by dealing with Hamas internally but lets face it, that's not realistic.

Israel sucks for their ongoing apartheid regime that contributes to the rise of extremists within what is realistically a big impoverished prison camp.

Israel and Hamas are in a tit for tat that they've been in for decades. One side escalates, the other side retaliates. As always civilians are caught in the middle, which is horrible. Everyone's an asshole here.

This situation is so bad.

I think, like most things, this is nuance.

First off, Hamas is the worst and they deserve everything coming to them.  Their actions are inexcusable and it's full-stop terrorism that has to be fully beaten back.


That said, I also think that the Palestinian people within Gaza are suffering inside what is essentially a prison camp.  Israel is part of that problem.
It doesn't excuse their actions, but it's also fair to recognize that this is a monster that is, at least partially created and radicalized because of Israel's treatment towards them and their lack of hope and options.

It's similar to 9/11.  It was a terrorist attack that was terrible on every level.  It's also fair to look at the US's involvement in the Middle East and reflect on whether or not our choices there are creating an environment for terrorists to attack us.  Both things can be and are true.

Israel has a right to defend itself and fight terrorism.  It is not right, however, to reactionarily attack a civilian population as an act of retribution.

So, yes -- I support Israel's right to defend itself.  I don't think it's prudent to indiscriminately genocide a people for it, though.

By the way, I'm seeing a lot of people on threads that see this as a completely black and white issue where if you aren't in full 100% lockstep, that you get blocked and ignored.

I don't think that's healthy.

I also think that there are bad actors, antisemites, and opportunists intentionally misinforming and simplifying this conflict into an either/or that it isn't.

Oh and one more thing --

It's totally the case where you can agree with a person or group on one thing and then find that that same person or group is completely out of step or misinformed on another issue.

Suffragettes were some of the biggest racists in our history, for example.  They were right on women's rights and that came at a cost to their views on race.   ...singularly focused.

So, in this case, I see some BLM activists are on the wrong side of things and you have to disassociate.  As a progressive, you have to filter through it and let cooler heads prevail.

YOU ARE A FUCKING LIAR

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fox-news-poll-voters-overwhelmingly-side-with-israelis-in-ongoing-conflict-with-palestinians/ar-AA1i3RO6

From Fox and the very first search result.

You and the rest of MAGAs desire to destroy America through misinformation is sick and perverted. 

LMFAO. Who exactly is lying? And why are you so emotional?

I support neither side just the people who will be caught in the middle and people around the world who will be victims on the terror wave that will follow the Israeli response.

I support Hamas ZERO Percent, and I support Israel about 50%.  If Hamas wants to be-head babies and burn children alive then they need to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Dramatic much? Hahaha I sometimes wonder  if you're actually a female and just hormonal because you can be pretty irrational. The poll I saw was before the latest event.

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- After a decade in which Democrats have shown increasing affinity toward the Palestinians, their sympathies in the Middle East now lie more with the Palestinians than the Israelis, 49% versus 38%.[/i]
https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx


Another poll, a Fox News survey conducted Saturday through Monday, also found similar divisions by party and age. The poll showed greater support for Israel — it did not offer respondents the option of saying they sided with both groups equally — but majorities or near-majorities of Democrats (59 percent) and voters under 35 (49 percent) said they sided more with the Israelis in “the Middle East conflict,” far fewer than Republicans (79 percent) or voters 65 and older (82 percent).

And a Morning Consult poll conducted Tuesday through Thursday also found a wide party split, with Republicans about twice as likely to say they sympathize more with Israelis than Democrats.

The trend among Democrats and younger Americans has been clear over the past few years. A Gallup poll earlier this year — before the war — found support had reached a tipping point: For the first time in Gallup’s 20-plus-year trendline, more Democrats sympathized with Palestinians than Israelis, driven in large part by the younger elements of the party’s membership.

The rapidity of the movement was striking. Democrats sided with the Israelis by a 30-point margin in 2016 — a 41-point margin swing in just seven years.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/12/democrats-generational-divide-remains-as-israel-battles-hamas-00121307#:~:text=In%20the%20new%20Economist%2FYouGov,driving%20the%20split%20among%20Democrats.

I have a serious question, not meant to incite anything.

But what does it mean to "support Israel"?

I see that is the rallying cry but I don't know what that means.  Is it asking is Israel should exist?  Is it giving them a free pass?




Like, I support America.  But we do dumb shit all the time.  So I'm not really sure what supporting Israel entails.

I agree a lot with you and Fau but I also don't think Israel is as bad as the media wants you to believe. I've said this before but a lot of my views are based on a coworker I had who has passed. He was a Muslim Engineer who was born in France, raised in Egypt, and lived in Africa. He spoke 7 different languages and was seemingly a nice guy. We spent countless hours debating the bible and Koran. he even gave me an English Koran to read which I did. He hated Jews with a passion. In fact he easily admitted that killing kids in night clubs and basically what Hamas just did was justifiable. Unless you got to know him you would have never known this side of him but his hatred was evil and Biblical. It had nothing to do with what was really going on.  

The same people beheading their own people in Iraq are running Hamas and Palestinians are caught in the middle because they hide and support them. They aren't all innocent in this either or else they would be trying to get rid of Hamas too.  

Regardless of what you see in the media Palestinians in Israel are freer than they would be in any Arab country. They are just under Jewish government and act like that is so horrible. They just do stuff like this so Israel expands control just as America would if Mexico or Canada attacked. the way I see it Palestinians have two options. They can live peacefully with Israel and help to get rid of the extremists or they can do nothing and suffer as is what's happening now.

I would guess that means something different to everyone just like most things political.

I don't know what you're seeing, but I don't see any media outlets anywhere doing anything but fully condemning Hamas and sympathizing with Israel at every turn.  There are a few democrats in small districts that are providing nuance, but they're being beaten back by their own party and supporters.  I don't see any mainstream criticism of Israel, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

Funny enough, the only narrative I see being critical of Israel is Trump.  His issue seems to be a more personal beef with Netanyahu but I heard him kinda blaming the lack of preparedness by Israel as part of the cause.  He was blasted by both the left and right for that.



This has been a hard issue for me to track.  I am pretty good at sniffing out propaganda bullshit, but with this issue, and with religion and thousands of years of conflict at the heart of it, it's hard to trust fact-based reporting.  The stuff I'm seeing online seems to be a hard-line, black and white support of Israel or those blaming Israel and focusing on the things they've done over the years to stoke the fire.  Even those that I follow on social media that are generally politically like-minded seem to have lost their heads over this particular issue.

It's whataboutism and sensationalism all over the place.  And then you have your shitty people who are intentionally making it worse.

I have a few good sources that I trust, but this continues to be a tough issue to sort through.

Do you support Russia or Ukraine? What does it mean to support Ukraine? It's basically the same thing.

And for the record, I think Israel should once and for all put an end to Hamas and absorb the land. And I think Russia should do the same with Ukraine. In both cases as quickly as possible.

Regardless of the reasons you have for your Russia opinion, hasn't Russia been trying to do that? They're just getting whooped.

I do support Ukraine, but they're beating back a foreign invader.  That's a much simpler, easier solution.

I also support Israel's right to defend itself.  And I support Hamas 0.  But I don't want a people genocided because their crooked government are buttholes.

People are losing their heads over this on social media.

I am seeing some people who would normally be like-minded that are falling into conspiracy.  In this case, it's the ideological left, but not really political organizations, but rather single-issue activist group and college students and stuff.

What are the conspiracies?

Well, mostly that Israel is responsible for things that they claim not to be.

(Almost like 9/11 truthers, blaming the tower attacks on an inside job.)

The most prevalent thing I'm seeing is this hospital destruction.

Look, I realize that governments lie and all that, and it's certainly possible that more info with come out later, but from the info we have now, we know that a hospital blew up from a missile.  Israel claims that it wasn't their missile and that it was a failed launch from within.  The US is backing up that claim.

So I tend to believe our government and our ally, rather than a terrorist organization.

I want to revisit this, but I'm almost scared to talk about it.

I'm not super educated on this particular issue and everyone is so trigger happy, which, I guess is understandable.  It seems like this is turning into some kind of race war.



I notice that the black community (at least the vocal, online one on threads and Reddit) has become very outspoken about their repudiation of Israel.  We also see what CF mentioned in another thread, which is college students, although I don't give that as much weight.  I think that it's generally accepted that college students are staunchly anti-war and the naivety that comes with that black/white position.

Here's how I feel:
In the question of whether or not it's Israel's land or if it was stolen from the indigenous people?  My answer is "who cares?"  All country borders are arbitrary.  Some king killed some duke and stole his shit, some rich person made a deal, someone got swindled, some caveman hit another caveman on the rock and stole his cave -- no people have a right to any land.  Even though it was fucked up that the Europeans came and stole land from the Native Americans, I wouldn't accept their attempt to take it back.  We just sort of are where we are.  And since Israel, though relatively a new concept, is the understood and agreed upon boundary from the United Nations of which the US is a member, in my mind, that issue is settled.  So, I consider Israel it's own self-governing country and that's that.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, but they're also an elected government, however bullshit and illegitimate.  So, unlike fighting "terrorism", this is an organization with political power that essentially declared war on another sovereign country and needs to be destroyed.  Israel has a right, and I might argue a duty, to do that.

And in war, people die.  Innocent people are killed.  Children suffer.  It's not fair, but it is the cost of war.  I hate it.  But when you are attacked, war is the result.  This is especially true when the aggressor wants their own people to be martyred and make no attempt to shield their people from the attacks; quite the opposite.  Calls for a cease-fire seems inappropriate.  There already was a cease fire and Hamas broke it.  In addition, they still have active hostages.  Asking to stop the bombardment while the other side actively holds your people is a big ask.  Additionally, I see criticism of Israel not providing electricity and water and supplies.  But, I'm not sure I'd be supplying an opposing military force that I'm actively at war with.  Is that a thing countries do -- supply their enemy?  Isn't it the opposite?  Don't you cut off supply lines and bomb railroads and close off ports?

So, while I'm firmly anti-Hamas, I do think that Israel has a humanitarian responsibility to try to reduce civilian casualties, while simultaneously still being able to mount their continued offensive.  If Hamas decides to use their civilian people to shield their militants, then those deaths are on Hamas, IMO, so long as Israel isn't intentionally targeting them.

I simultaneously hold the conflicting belief that I don't really like the state of Israel all that much.  It's a far-right government.  I'd prefer that a self-governing Palestinian state exist in the region.  And though I think Netanyahu is a self-serving a-hole, when conflicts about truth (who bombed what, for example) arise, I'm likely to trust our Westernized, democratic ally over a literal terrorist organization.  Hamas doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of their actions.

All that said, I don't think that Israel can bomb themselves out of this problem and that a two-state solution, however unlikely to occur (especially now) is the most reasonable path for long-term peace.  However, Israel does have a right to remove Hamas, but has a responsibility not to treat it as an act of vengeance or revenge.

Politically, there is a weird wrap-around.  I don't even know if you'd call it far left and far right, but the farthest ends of the political spectrum seem to be aligning.  Tucker Carlson is spewing some weird antisemitism conspiracy theories and so are the Black Lives Matter organization.  It's a weird coalition.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9G_aKyXgAArexq?format=jpg&name=900x900)
It can seem really surprising that everything seems to revolve around occupying this one little piece of land until you realize Hamas actually only wants to eradicate all Jews and infidels. The land or occupation has zero to do with it. Peaceful Palestinians are caught in the middle but have always been free to move to any of the green areas. The truth is Palestinians have more freedom in Israel than they would in any Arab country. Hamas takes the aid given to them and uses them for shields as they attack Jewish civilians.


Interesting note to some but "hamas" is used throughout the original Hebrew text of the Bible . In fact in Revelations God talks about ridding the world of hamas and building a new heaven and new earth. “Hamas,” the Arabic terrorist group, is an acronym  of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement) and is also in the Bible for violence and murder. The Hebrew word “hamas” means violence and murder. Hamas was founded in 1987 however, the biblical word “ḥāmās”  reaches back to the earliest chapters of Genesis and is one of the significant reasons for the flood.

I don't think those in Gaza can leave.  They can't go in to Israel, there's ocean, and then there's Egypt, which was also closed off to them.

Gaza has been referred to as "the world's largest open-air prison."  Half (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206897328/half-of-gazas-population-is-under-18-heres-what-that-means-for-the-conflict) of the population of Gaza are children.  The idea that they can simply leave at any time if they would stop being stubborn is pure fantasy; an article from June 2022 (https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15) details the extensive travel restrictions imposed on Gaza residents.

Dave I think you summed it up pretty rationally in your first and subsequent posts, for most human beings with some resemblance of a soul living outside of the middle east.

If there was a genuine rational solution, there should be some kind of UN peacekeeping force in there trying to diffuse the situation - but this is the middle east where there is an eye for an eye... or taking it further, 5,000+ children killed for 222 hostages taken. When is enough, really enough?

I'm all for Hamas being eliminated, but at what human cost? Then what after that? What replaces them? Is it going to be even worse with another grudge against Israel, or are the killings going to go so far as to being an ethnic cleansing (or even Genocidal) sweep through Gaza? These are questions that I think even the highest placed minds in the political spheres immediately concerned have not seriously considered yet... and that should be a scary thought.

I saw this recently and while it isn't really a fair assessment - the situation is more complex than portrayed -  there is truth to the huge numbers of children being killed in Gaza:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1121558335532052601/1170706683232792736/IMG_0684.jpg)

Here's another comparison that's been floating around.  Again, Israel's response to being attacked by Hamas is not remotely similar to Russia's unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine, but one thing we can see is how much more the media cares about dead kids when they have blue eyes and blonde hair (https://twitter.com/rtyson82/status/1497702994590187530):

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1121558335532052601/1170076800802639932/IMG_0938.webp)

I don't think this is a fair or answerable question.  Children aren't being intentionally killed as punishments.  They are being killed as a result of a larger war, where a terrorist army is hiding their people and weapons within their civilian population.  I don't want any kids dead.  1 is too many.  But that's what war is.


The cost of defeating an enemy is the death of as many of that enemy until they unconditionally surrender their power.


I don't have an answer to that, but who cares?  "We can't elimiate the Nazis!  Who might replace them?"  Nobody would say that about Germany.  Who gives a shit is who.

I don't think you're going to solve middle east peace, but I also don't think that's what's at play here.  Israel got attacked by a terrorist government, so I'm cool with them doing what's needed to remove that government from power.  People are going to die because that government is actually a terrorist organization that is sacrificing its own people for its cause, which sucks, but it is the reality.

Not sure what it is like now but prior to the Hamas attack there were 63 gates in the West Bank barrier of which half are available for Palestinian use. Palestinians have always been allowed in. In the 80's and 90's it why so many bombings of young people in night clubs and such. They tightened down security afterwards but still allowed them in the country.

The West Bank is distinct from Gaza.
Gaza is the "open-air prison" where people essentially cannot leave, and have not been able to for many years.

Like you said, it's a bit more complicated... and yet a bit more simple than that.

What value is a life? A non-threatening, non-dangerous life? At the moment over there, it's pretty worthless. There are so many women and children killed and butchered in random bombings for what? A few hundred genuine bona-fide Hamas terrorists. Really?

You have men randomly lined up at gunpoint in the streets, stripped down to their underwear, and sent off to interrogation (and possibly, re-education, or to disappear, never to be seen again). At what point do people see any kind of sick irony in this?

I am all for the Israel nation defending itself, but this is something else entirely. It's horrible and inhumane. It deserves to be called out.

Here to revisit this again.

I see a disturbing trend among the college-student liberal types, which is moved away from simply not supporting Israel's ongoing aggression (which is logical) to now actively supporting the opposition, be it Hamas or Iran, which, to me, is fucking crazy.  We can't get our eye off the ball, here.  Netanyahu sucks, is a right-wing crook, and is probably making poor strategic and unstabilizing military moves because it will save his skin, politically.

However....

It's still better for the US if Israel comes out on top.  They're still a Western Democracy.

Again, nuace...  But it's fair to criticize Israel for a non-proportional response without jumping ship to support terrorists.

Also, a lot of the people who are the most vocal for support of Gaza, sometimes going so far to defend Hamas and Iran, is that they seem to want a two state solution before aid to Israel.  But THEY DON'T WANT a two-state solution in these Muslim countries.  They want Israel gone.  That's the crux of a lot of this issue.  It's a land dispute and so long as Israel exists, these places aren't going to be chill.  In the US, we need to strive to return Iran to the more progressive direction it was heading prior to the 1980s and that means beating back this religious zealot leadership in all of these nations.

I saw where 28 Google employees had a sit-in in the CEO's office and refused to leave until google rescinded a 1.2 billion dollar contract with israel.

Just stupid, they were removed and fired. Companies have no morals. That CEO would shoot his own mother in the head for 1.2 billion dollars.

The college student liberal types are finding out that regardless of political party, nobody is going to take the palestinian side over israel. This disillusionment makes them ripe for propaganda. They have no recourse in the US, if the Dems aren't going to pander to them (and they aren't) what are they going to do ? Run to the republicans? They want israel to wipe gaza off the map. So all that's left to them is to protest. (which btw, them protesting the party that is at least calling for moderation is the tops of irony)

Hard pressed to think of many settings were someone could refuse to work and rather had a sit in in the ceos office and not get fired. 

This is where you and I disagree. I don't know how anyone can tell a country whose kids were attacked, raped, killed, and continues to be hostages how they can respond. Then they follow that up with over 300 missiles being shot at them. It's kind of like the kid who suckered punched you and broke your nose and then dictating how you are allowed to respond.

Everyone knows Hamas uses the Palestinians as shields and yet Palestinians support them instead of ratting them out so "innocents" end up dying.  Even Democrats like Fetterman have said as much. It sucks but when a people care more about wiping you out than they do their own people it's a no win situation until you force your hand.  

You gotta admit seeing the LGTBQ people supporting Palestine and Hamas is downright funny though. 

Would you actually approve of Israel engaging in a proportional response?

Because a proportional response would include things such as Israel kidnapping random women raping them and then dragging their dead bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv while Israeli cheered and spit on their dead bodies and burning people alive.

Before suggesting that Israel’s responded ought be proportional realize that what you are demanding Israel engage in the same heinous acts Hamas engaged in.  Because that is the only way to be proportional. 

What Israel is doing instead is rooting out Hamas and unfortunately civilians are suffering too.  But Hamas could end the suffering of civilians at any time.  The same way Keitel eventually ended the German peoples suffering on May 8, 1945.
 

It would be one thing if Israel's actions were only targeting Hamas, but they aren't.  They are targeting hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas.  That's the problem.

Israel is targeting Hamas.  The problem is Hamas is hiding behind civilians.

Israel's solution to this problem is to target civilians in the hopes of also taking out Hamas in the process.

When I say Israel is targeting civilians, I mean that quite literally: Israel is fully aware that their actions will cause thousands of Palestinian civilians to die, and has determined that the ratio of Palestinian women and/or children that will be killed by bombs, starved to death, etc. to hopefully kill a Hamas militant in the process is currently at an acceptable level.

Approximately 2 civilians for every one militant. 

Being aware and targeting are not the same thing.  Bombing a building containing both a Hamas leader and his family is not targeting civilians, it is being aware of the collateral damage.   Bombing a building that only contains civilians is targeting civilians.  Israel is targeting Hamas, Hamas is choosing to include the civilians, not Israel.  But the idea Hamas should be allowed to continue to operate because by hiding behind civilians is insane.
 

You act like they are just winging it. Whenever they target a place it is because Hamas is active there. Like I said before, Palestinians support Hamas and refuse to out them so it isn't like they are completely innocent in this. They are playing with fire in the hopes that Israel is decimated instead of helping to rid of extremists.

Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict (https://turkiye.un.org/en/263401-gaza-number-children-killed-higher-four-years-world-conflict)

Amid reports of fresh Israeli airstrikes in Gaza overnight into Wednesday, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) said that more children have been killed there in recent months than in four years of conflict worldwide.

“This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and their future,” said UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini, who described as “staggering” the latest Gaza health authority data indicating that at least 12,300 youngsters have died in the enclave in the last four months, compared with 12,193 globally between 2019 and 2022.

Writing on X, formerly Twitter, late on Tuesday, the UNRWA chief reiterated repeated international calls for an immediate ceasefire in the enclave, where intense Israeli bombardment in response to Hamas-led terror attacks in Israel on 7 October has levelled entire neighbourhoods.

To date, more than 31,184 Palestinians have been killed and 72,889 injured, according to the local health authorities. As of 12 March, 247 Israeli soldiers have been killed in Gaza with 1,475 injured since the start of the ground operation, Israeli army data shows.

Over 12,000 children have been killed by Israel.  They simply do not care how many civilians have to die to "eliminate Hamas."

This argument stopped being plausible when Israel started killing humanitarian workers trying to feed starving Palestinians (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/chef-jose-andres-says-israel-targeted-his-aid-workers-systematically-car-by-car-2024-04-03/).

Israel isn't just killing Palestinians with bombs; they are killing them by bombing the people trying to feed them.  The idea that it is somehow justified to starve Palestinian children because "Hamas still exists" is insulting.

The concept you are describing - i.e. Israel is killing Palestinian civilians because they are "refusing to turn over Hamas militants" -  is called collective punishment, and is specifically outlawed by the Geneva Conventions.

There's just nuance.  Both parties bear responsibility in protecting civilians.  Hamas' actions are indefensible, but Israel also has to take precautions to limit civilian death as much as is reasonable.

It's also hard because both sides are going to say that every action is a response to a previous action and this had been going back and forth and on and on since forever.

I do think it's fair to ask Israel to quell its level of aggression or its methods, as they're resulting in the suffering of too many that aren't war participants.  This is not only as a nation that supports the Geneva convention, but also as a country that is providing miliary aid.  It is also important not to lose sight that Israel is our ally and Hamas is our enemy.  That is the middle ground that I've carved out and I don't think it is all that controversial.

To follow up on this:

Turns out this is very far from accurate (https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/):

In order to assassinate Ayman Nofal, the commander of Hamas’ Central Gaza Brigade, a source said the army authorized the killing of approximately 300 civilians, destroying several buildings in airstrikes on Al-Bureij refugee camp on Oct. 17, based on an imprecise pinpointing of Nofal. Satellite footage and videos from the scene show the destruction of several large multi-storey apartment buildings. [...]

"There was a completely permissive policy regarding the casualties of [bombing] operations — so permissive that in my opinion it had an element of revenge," D., an intelligence source, claimed. "The core of this was the assassinations of senior [Hamas and PIJ commanders] for whom they were willing to kill hundreds of civilians. We had a calculation: how many for a brigade commander, how many for a battalion commander, and so on."

"There were regulations, but they were just very lenient," said E., another intelligence source. "We’ve killed people with collateral damage in the high double-digits, if not low triple-digits. These are things that haven’t happened before."

Such a high rate of "collateral damage" is exceptional not only compared to what the Israeli army previously deemed acceptable, but also compared to the wars waged by the United States in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

General Peter Gersten, Deputy Commander for Operations and Intelligence in the operation to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria, told a U.S. defense magazine in 2021 that an attack with collateral damage of 15 civilians deviated from procedure; to carry it out, he had to obtain special permission from the head of the U.S. Central Command, General Lloyd Austin, who is now Secretary of Defense.

"With Osama Bin Laden, you’d have an NCV [Non-combatant Casualty Value] of 30, but if you had a low-level commander, his NCV was typically zero," Gersten said. "We ran zero for the longest time."

---

Keep in mind that this calculation is for how many civilians they were willing to directly bomb an an attempt to kill Hamas militants.  This doesn't even account for how many civilians they were willing to starve towards the same ends.