The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

If you're happy with these new draft picks, like Sieler and Achane, remember who you want to fire in the off-season that brought them in.  You can't fire your way into success.

Sieler wasn't drafted. He was waived by Baltimore in December and we claimed him off waivers and signed him to the practice squad. This was the covid year and we were looking for bodies. Grier got lucky with Sieler. He has hit on some players but he has missed on many more. how many freaking top picks did he have after dumping all of our players 6 years ago?  He also misses on decisions and things like never building a physical line. Writers and fans have been claiming this for many years and yet ... Grier has yet to figure out why we can't run the ball on short downs and now can't ever run. This team has gotten worse and not better.  

He's had 6 years to build a team and yet this team is completely flawed with some high dollar pieces just collecting checks. It's time for him to go  and give someone else a chance.

I have no idea why I wrote Sieler...maybe I just read it while I was typing.  But I meant Chop Robinson.

But my point still stands with Sieler, too.  We went out and acquired him.

I think we're a better team than we were 6 years ago.  And sure, you can say we got lucky with Sieler.  But then, you gotta say we got unlucky with Armstead.  Count the hits and misses the same, is all.

I just think back -- what's the last GM you didn't want to fire?  It just seems that we're so bloodthirsty for blame that we are wanting to can people without a viable change in strategy.

So a few times he was right? That's basically anyone in that position.  

For every Achane there are 10 or more Kalen Ballages and Noah Igbinoghenes.  He's been rebuilding for 6 freaking years and we are not even going  to make the playoffs let alone win one. We are getting worse and some think we need to blow it up again. 23 seasons without winning a playoff game. He's been here 24 years and has been General Manager since 2016. At some point he has to be held accountable.

Adam Gase - 23 wins and 25 losses (0.479) 1 playoff loss
Brian Flores - 24 wins and 25 losses (0.489)
Mike McDaniel - 26 wins and 24 losses (.520) 2 playoff losses

That's our last 9 years in a nutshell under Grier. If that's better then apparently it doesn't take much to impress you.

BTW ... Armstead was injury prone prior to Miami. That's some of the bad judgements I'm talking about. We should have expected it to be how it has been with him.

I just don't 1:1 the team's record to the decisions of the GM.

I'm not even pro Grier -- I just think that we are a better team than we were when he started.  I am unhappy with the line play, but overall, I think we have a decent roster and have had good talent and a fun team to watch.  It doesn't mean we haven't made errors.



I just think you can't fire your way to success.  If you want to point out some specific choices and say that should cost him his job because they were stupid or reckless or whatever, fine -- but just to point at record and kick out the GM -- it's lazy.

And even if you were to do that and use your numbers, it would suggest that the team continues to improve. 
Under Tannenbaum's regime: .453
Then it continues to get better and better under Grier every few years...every data point is better than the previous, with the biggest jump coming in the last 3 seasons.

If you were to follow the same trend, you'd expect the team to follow the course and keep getting better as you phase out the old players, no???   If you're trying to analyze the number, they clearly say that you keep Grier.

I don't see the point in firing Grier, he hasn't done a terrible job, and I like him more than prior GM's.  You lose free agents you want to keep because of the salary cap.  You can only draft players available when your turn comes.  You can only sign free agents that want to come here at a price you can afford.

And once the team is assembled it's up to the coaches and coordinators, which he doesn't control.  He also can't control injuries.  He hasn't been perfect, no GM is, but I'm happy with the moves he's made.

Barry Jackson today in the Miami Herald  ... "While Texans draft picks thrived, none of 32 players - not a single one of them - in the 1st 5 years of drafts since this rebuild began did anything significant for Dolphins Sunday. 25 didn't play."

I get that some people only see the good in things but if this was a test ... Chris Grier would have failed miserably. The Rams are starting two rookies on defense who are doing very well. The Eagles do too. They possibly have 4 of the top 10 best rookies in the league right now. The best we have is a part time pass rusher we are hoping will learn to defend the run. Project players have cost us time and time again. We need to draft people who can contribute right away, and unless we draft super high, and he isn't the guy based on his history.

Jackson obviously isn't counting last year's draft (Chop played well), so let's say he's counting 2019-2023.  So let's look at the high-impact first-rounders over those years...

2019: Christian Wilkins isn't on the Dolphins but also isn't playing for the team he is currently on, due to injury.
2020: Tua*, AJ is injured, Igbo is a legit miss
2021: Waddle*, Philips is injured
2022: pick was traded for Tyreek*
2023: one pick was forfeited due to owner; other pick was traded for Chubb, who is injured

So I guess if the argument is that Grier wasted a bunch of early picks on players who are not healthy today... fine, I guess?
The other point that could be made is that Waddle and Tyreek were not worth the picks used on them, which seems incompatible with all the "any QB could succeed with these Amazing Weapons" charge that is frequently leveled at Tua.

And that brings us, inevitably, to Tua.  Everyone has their own opinion on him and it's pretty much set by now.  So if the argument Jackson is making is that the rebuild is a failure because Tua is a failed pick, fine.  But he should just say that.

Also, all of this is kinda due to the same issue.

If Tua has a bad game or more largely, if we don't have a great game passing, then Tua/Waddle/Hill -- they're kind of all in the same boat.  You don't have your two stud receivers have a great day and your QB play poorly.

Also, one game sample size.

- O-line isn't good enough to have a fully open playbook.  ...lacks balance/running game
- Health

That's really what it comes down to.

LOL ... if that's how you want to make excuses for him you need to step it up.  Wilkens is gone because Chris didn't sign him soon enough so he played the market and won. Chris never resigns our guys but will quickly overpay for others. Giving up draft picks and over paying players (we had to give inflated contracts to get them to agree with the trade)is not a win. that's poor drafting.  Besides those two guys have not made a dent on the board this year in the whole scheme of things. Even our top picks aren't contributing. Waddle is a non factor in most games this year.  The fact is we don't have drafted players making an impact, and in fact have spent a ton of money and giving up picks bringing in free agents because of our failed drafting, proves he is not good at his job to many of us.  

BTW, I think Tua is good enough to win but he needs help ... especially on the offensive line. He needs a run game and time to throw against physical defenses. He is more Matt Ryan than Josh Allen. We'd be about the same had they gone with Justin Herbert IMO.

This wasn't a one game sample if you've been watching.  We've beaten one decent team and they were on the rebound. We are 1-13 against above .500 teams.  This game wasn't in bad elements but they were physical and we played exactly how we had done in the past against good teams. Either you only look at one game for the total assessment to make excuses or you look at the whole and see just how bad it really is. We either are extremely unlucky or the person getting our groceries is failing in a mighty way.

If Wilkins had been paid, last year or any other year, Barry Jackson's statement still would be exactly as true: Wilkins would have been on the sideline Sunday, watching with AJ, Chubb, and Phillips.  And I'm not sure why anyone would think Wilkins should have been paid in the first place: the defense was never anything special when he was on the team, so why keep him?  Last year the Dolphins had the #1 offense and that's still apparently not enough to stop people from declaring the entire project a failure because they didn't win when it counted.

And like I said: if one wants to say that Waddle and Tyreek were "failed acquisitions" then that's certainly a position, but given all the talk over the last 2 years about how the Dolphins have these incredible offensive weapons, it doesn't make sense to now claim that those weapons have been trash all along.

First off there is no guarantee Wilkins would have been hurt here but I'll give you that because it is a possibility. The fact you say the defense was nothing special is true but our DTs were as solid as they come and Christian was good enough to always require a double team. Wilkens and Sieler almost never came off the field during defensive plays. We replaced Christian with a part-time 38 year old.

"project a failure because they didn't win when it counted." Now you are starting to get it. It's not about style points. It's about wins and losses when it matters most. It's about competing in the playoffs when you haven't for 23 years. Not a good record to hold.

Lastly ... don't even get me started about Chris not even making an offer to AVG who stated he hoped to stay with the Dolphins. I'm glad it worked out for AVG but that was a Grier failure from day one and everyone but he saw that coming.

I split the thread, as it has gone WAY off-topic from the Texans game.

But... the defense was much worse than the offense!  It's like the inverse of the 00/01 Dolphins: they had an arguably-top-tier defense that couldn't carry the team in big moments, while the offense was always mediocre-to-below-average.  And the Dolphins with Wilkins (and AVG, who had 5 years in Miami to show something) were exactly the opposite: a top-tier offense that couldn't carry the team in the biggest moments, with a consistently mediocre-to-below-average defense.  I mean, you talk about Waddle and Tyreek failing to show up in big games, but the defense allowed 38 points to the Ravens (in a game the offense won), allowed 40 points to Zach Wilson when Tua was out, allowed 34 points to the Chargers in another game the offense won, allowed touchdowns on the first 3 BUF possessions en route to giving up 48 points to the Bills, allowed 28 points at home (and 15 points in 3 minutes) to one of the worst teams in the league, and allowed 56 points to the Ravens with a chance to clinch the division.  To whatever degree the offense deserves criticism, the defense deserves far more.

While we're here, let's talk about AVG: again, he had plenty of time to show something in Miami before the Dolphins used a first-round draft pick on Jaelan Phillips and spent another first-round pick trading for Bradley Chubb.  Why should the Dolphins have given AVG a $20M contract when he would be backing up Chubb and Phillips next year?

Calais Campbell has honestly outplayed Wilkins (at a much cheaper price) so I don't understand the complaining about Wilkins at all.

You can argue both ways about Grier's drafting record, but we should all be able to agree his salary cap management is a complete failure and a huge reason for this mess.

Some may say our defense last year was average, but prior to this season, it was able to generate a short field for our offense. This one can't. It's in the bottom third for INTs and near the basement for sacks and forced fumbles. Most of that is the departure of a lot of players drafted by Grier that we couldn't afford to keep, because Grier chose to grossly overpay select few (who have rewarded us with under performing) and let them walk.

Sure, Wilkins got overpaid to move to the Raiders, but you can't tell me that AVG and Brandon Jones wouldn't be very handy in this team right now. Instead Grier chose to award huge guaranteed money increases to Tua and Waddle (early) as well as Hill and Ramsey. He didn't have to do it - he could have waited another year for Tua and up to two years for Waddle. He could have left Hill's contract as it was - if he did, I bet he would probably have been cut at the end of this season with a much smaller cap-hit. The way it is now, I doubt another team would want to pick him up, and if they did we will still be paying a small fortune (and in a salary cap hell). Chubb's situation will be a nightmare to deal with next season on top of everything else (unless it's massively restructured, and he really has no incentive to do it).

The team last year was so much better balanced, with a lot more of those high end draft picks still with us. Grier could have put off the payday decisions for 12 months and at least given us a shot at something this year. Instead he jumped early and ripped apart the team he built, and this is what you get. Yes, he probably would have been looking at the same decisions at the end of this season, but we would have had a chance.

Next season will be even worse courtesy of those contracts and what Chubb is supposed to make. If you're hurting now, there's a lot more pain to come.

All the AVG talk is pure uncut hindsight.  If he had shown any kind of promise during his 5 years in Miami (any hint that he could play like he is in MIN), the Dolphins would not have spent 2 first-round picks on edge rushers with AVG on the roster.

If anyone gets fired it should be Grier over McDaniel but honestly..keep them both for at least one more year, a new GM with same coach isn’t going to fix it or vice versa.

Some of Griers picks have been baffling like those secondary guys whose name I can’t remember and outside of Tua and Waddle our first round picks seem lackluster but we also got absolute steals like Achane. If that kid had a line worth shit he’d be 1500 yards by now he’s that good and when he had some push up front he looked like the second coming of Barry Sanders

But this is where we are give everyone another year and if you need to blow up the team again then do it I guess.


———————

Ok so we know Flores sucks and he tried to sabotage Tua but was he right in wanting Herbert or Jordan Love over Tua?

Is the problem with our franchise the fact that dumb ass Ryan Fitzpatrick pulled out 6 games and we lost out on Joe Burrow?

You know who deserves the ring of dishonor? Matt Moore his gutsy ass won too many games and we got Tanny instead of Andrew Luck

What sucks is that Flores broke the team down to its basics in his first season and nobody expected them to win anything. The team rallied thinking no one was better than anyone else (within the team as well as outside), and it was a genuine team building rally cry. It ended up being a positive building block.

But he was too inflexible and went OTT, treating everyone like crap... the wheels started falling off when Minka was smarter than him and wouldn't take his crap. So he got his ass shipped out, and Flores didn't take that as a personal failure, he was right and everyone had to deal with it. Right up to nuggetting the franchise QB. At that point he'd basically lost the team, and the trigger had to be pulled.

Enter McD. Like I said elsewhere, he was a breath of fresh air, freedom and creative ideas... at first, it really worked. But there's no real discipline. The moment you hear of hotheads like Ramsey and Poyer loudmouthing that the team has to be harder, it's a player driven culture, and they're the guys to lead it... something's seriously wrong.

For what seemed to be a brief moment, somewhere in between when Flores left and McD first took over, you had a team that was united and there for the goal of winning a championship. Not in Miami for the tax breaks, for the sunshine, the lifestyle, the big contracts. That has changed, it's looking like were right back to what it was before Flores arrived, before the goldmine of draft picks from the Tunsil deal started, and when we had a shitload of cap space. That's the well we've dropped into, and what really sucks right now.

This is absolute BS. All AVG did was makes plays when given the chance. It's not like he just had one good game or season. He finally got more playing time and you were forced to recognize it. Same with Sieler. It was crazy it took 3 years for him to see significant time but he was always making plays when he had the chance.

Campbell was brought in as a part time player. Wilkins played almost every down and took on 2 defenders much of the time and yet was still a huge force in the run defense.  I really love Campbell (who doesn't?) but Wilkins was better for the team overall. Campbell would have been an awesome change of pace for Wilkins and Seiler.

Yep I agree. It was rumored as soon as Fangio ditched us for the Eagles he wanted AVG up there, and as we know now, Flores wanted AVG too.

He took a 1 year deal previously to remain because Fangio convinced him to stay, and Grier clearly undervalued him compared to (cough...) other players and let him walk. Grier screwed up on this one, pure and simple.

If you took the best bits of Flores and McDaniel, you could have one hell of a good coach.

We never got the whole package.

AVG started 11 games in 2020 and 14 games in 2021.  MIA still had a glaring need for pass rush which led to drafting Phillips and trading for Chubb.

While across the board they all admit he is a great guy ... pretty much all the writers are calling for Grier's head. Chris Perkins is the only one I've seen saying give them both one more year. Adam Beasley pointed out today with Joe Rose and Kim Bokamper that there are a lot of GMs with better records who were fired.

On the opposite end I haven't seen any writer calling for McDaniel to be let go just yet.

Like whom?

Not Dennis Hickey, who was 14-18 (.438) with 0 playoff appearances and 0 winning seasons.
Not Jeff Ireland, who was 46-50 (.479) with 1 playoff appearance and 1 winning season.
Not Randy Mueller, who was 16-32 (.333) with 0 playoff appearances and 1 winning season.
In comparison, Grier is 73-74 (.496) with 3 playoff appearances and 5 winning seasons.

This question deserves an answer.  Let's look at Miami's first-round picks since the Tunsil trade:

2020- Tua at #5 (own pick), AJ at #18 (PIT pick from Minkah), Igbo at #30 (HOU pick from Tunsil)
2021- Waddle at #6 (more Tunsil aftermath), Phillips at #18 (own pick)
2022- own pick at #15 sent to PHI (Waddle aftermath), #29 sent to KC for Tyreek (Tunsil)
2023- own pick at #21 forfeited (Stephen Ross), #29 sent to DEN for Chubb (Tunsil)
2024- Chop at #21 (own pick)

So MIA's first-round haul over the past 5 years is Tua, AJ, Igbo, Waddle, Phillips, Tyreek, Chubb, and Chop (with the owner throwing a first in the fire, mind you).
There is exactly one bad acquisition in that list and it's arguable that Grier was placating Flores with the Igbo pick (remember: Grier drafted Minkah before Flores arrived).

You are funny. I'm pretty sure it wasn't specifically directed towards the Dolphins considering neither Ross nor Huizenga are known for being good at hiring and firing. In fact both are known as being too lenient in retaining people.

LOL .... He still hasn't fielded a team that can beat above average teams so just how good are those guys? He's had some hits with a ton of top picks. That's a luxury few GMs ever get.  He also has failed to field a good team over that time and has a severely poor record against above .500 teams. His teams don't just lose but lose badly to them most of the time.

Most of us can kick ass at work 50% of the time but if we failed the other 50% we're going to be shown the door very quickly.

Everyone knows the offensive line is the biggest issue with this team and yet Grier not only laughed about it... he made fun of everyone who questioned them about it. We have small quick guys who get beat up when they play legit teams and it happens pretty much every single time. We are so far away from being a Buffalo, Baltimore, Detroit, Philly, or Kansas City it isn't even funny.

The good thing for Grier is we play two really bad teams and should end with a winning season ... although not against any good teams. Expect us to run it back and be mediocre again next year as well.

Grier is neither a player nor a coach.  All he can do is try to acquire quality players for the team.  He has no control over injuries; if your argument is that Grier should have spent less money on starters and more money on backups, then make that argument: tell us which starters should have been cut or traded.

If you're just going to point at the scoreboard, then there's no point in even bringing up "how many top picks" Grier had; the results are the results.  I think Grier has done a good job getting quality players, and it doesn't seem like you can even dispute that part.  You're just saying that since the team hasn't won, Grier needs to be fired.

He is responsible for obtaining injury prone player when they have a history of injury. Otherwise .. you're arguing semantics.  I've already said he has made some good picks. This doesn't change the fact he has yet to field a team that is a Super Bowl contender or anywhere close. We never compete against the good teams although a few games we bored Buffalo enough to keep us in the game. We are good at best but still very far away from being a great team. 

I really do not understand the fight for mediocrity. We are the best of the mediocre teams. The Dolphins will most likely win the last two games, albeit against two really bad teams, giving us a fake winning record. The people wanting them to make the playoffs too are a bit sadistic to me. It physically hurts me to watch them get pummeled in these cold games against good teams so I don't see the benefit.

"Grier should not have acquired these injury-prone players" is a perfectly reasonable argument!  Out of the players I listed above, Tua, AJ, Phillips, and Chubb have all missed significant amounts of time.  So which of those players are you calling a bad acquisition?  A player cannot be both a "good pick" AND a "poor choice."

You and I see this very differently.  Where you see a "fight for mediocrity," I look at 30 years of making changes just to make them and see a clearly-failed approach.

If you think Chris Grier has made mistakes, then name those specific moves.  But if you're just looking at the results and saying "Somebody needs to be fired"... well, the Dolphins have been firing somebody for three decades.

If the only specific problem you can identify is the record, you have no idea how to fix it.

This very much sums up my feelings.  I am not even pro-Grier, per se, but I can't really look at the roster and think that we haven't been getting better and better.  It just seems like people out for blood and he's a guy that's been around a while.  None of this feels like an actual reaction to things he's done.

Off the top of my head Channing Tindall, Noah Ignoginee and Cam Smith but just a touch on Grier's mistakes in our most vulnerable spots ... the trenches.

Terron Armstead was injury plagued before Miami so you have to count about 5 games without him every year. Robert Jones is not an NFL starter. Liam Eichenberg is not an NFL starter. Aaron Brewer is too small on short yardage plays. He can get out in the field to make blocks but gets run over on short yardage. Happens pretty regularly with out OL. Kendall Lamm is not an NFL starter. That's our offensive line and just a few reasons we are not a great team.

Benito Jones is not an NFL starter. Calais Campbell is a part time replacement for Wilkins. No production when Campbell is out 50% of the time. Even though AVG publicly declared he wanted to stay here we did not make him an offer but instead went after Shaq Barret. Chop Robinson is a project player who still can't protect against the run. Ogbah didn't get signed by anyone so we signed him after Shaq Barret quit. Grier had no plan to replace Chubb who at best would have played the last couple of games. That's some of our defensive line issues.

Another key note is our starting inside LBer and captain was let go mid season because of how bad he was. He's since been let go by the Lions too.

We have some good players but they obviously can't cover up the shortfalls that Grier refuses to upgrade. In fact he laughs at us when the the subject was brought up by reporters. Add in the fact we overpay for other people's draftees and refuse to pay our guys is mind boggling. Oh yes, and we had no legitimate back up plan for Tua.

The guy is not good at his job and the records continue to prove that.

Yeah, I think it's a package deal, and we can't dump one part of it the way some people have suggested. Ross has done that before, and it didn't work out too well. It's not bad enough for a total blow up either (yet).

Grier - McD - Tua.

Up until this the end of last season, we seemed to have some kind of hope, and that's credits in the bank for at least one more season. 

That said, they all deserve criticism for what they have got wrong.

I disagree. That's an NFL old wives' tale.  There are many examples of GMs being let go or left while coaches were retained in the NFL and it worked out just fine.  After all the turmoil in the 49ers organization in the late ’90s, Bill Walsh stepped out of retirement and became the team’s general manager in 1999 and retained Steve Mariucci. Worked out pretty well for them both.

took this info from an older article ...

Since 1995, excluding expansion teams, there have been 95 new general managers hired in the NFL. Slightly more than half of those GMs (50) hired new head coaches, served as joint general manager/head coach, or were brought in with a new coach together as part of a regime change. That leaves 45 general managers who inherited head coaches and let them stick around for a season.

....

Of the 50, only 11 of them hired a new head coach in year two. The most recent example is in Chicago, where Phil Emery brought in Marc Trestman after a one-year Lovie Smith experiment.  In other words, when new GMs gave their inherited coach a trial period, it usually lasted longer than one year.
...

In fact, 22 of the 32 head coaches retained for year two of the new regime posted winning records in their “tryout” season.