The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

...For Never Winning The Super Bowl. Did anyone watch this on ESPN classic last night? I thought it was a very well done presentation - basically mentioning all the things that went wrong during his career. I know the haters will come on here & say he choked, he's overrated, etc. but ask yourselves what you already know - does John Elway retire with 2 rings without T. Davis or that defense? Does Montana get 4 rings without Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, & his supporting crew? I love Papa Don, but I think he gets most of the blame. 1 for keeping Olivadotti all those years while the defense ranked in the bottom half of the league & letting Thurman Thomas single-handedly run all over the defense & 2 for all of the drafts busts all those years. Need I mention JJ for stripping Dan of his audible capabilities & his own draft busts?

I'm going to be serious here (not bashing on Marino and being all anti-fins)

Everyone blames Jimmy Johnson for "destroying" Marino.  Don Shula got to 1 Super Bowl in 1985, and that was it.  10 years of frustration and runner-up finishers.  In comes Jimmy Johnson (who took a 1-15 Dallas Cowboys, MOLDED...let me repeat that...MOLDED Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, and Troy Aikman into the legacy team of the 1990's.  He didn't get there and the team was set up - no.  He turned it into an awesome force).  Now, Jimmy Johnson = 2 SB wins.  Dan Marino = 0.

Jimmy Johnson was trying to A. Build a defense and B. Get the Dolphins to a Super Bowl.  His defensive building efforts - still in effect to ths day with Z. Thomas and J. Taylor - made the Dolphins a superior defensive force.  Their offense then produced their first 1,000 yard back in Kareem Abdul-Jabar, and they had Tony Martin, an all-pro from Atlanta. (I believe this was within Johnson's reign - I could be wrong)

Marino cost Marino a 2nd chance at a deep run at the playoffs, and who knows, another Super Bowl try maybe.  Dan Marino was unwilling to adapt to the new offense and team structure.  He had been the only guy this whole time in Miami, and when JJ came to try to build a super-bowl caliber team, Marino's resistance and "differences" with Johnson impeded and severly impacted the team from reaching it's potential.  John Elway, after being the only guy in Denver all those years with Dan Reeves, ADAPTED to Mike Shannahan as he built a Super Bowl team, in turn, changing Elway from a "just doesn't have what it takes to win the big game" QB to quite possibly the NFL's all-time greatest QB.

IMO, Marino should have put his big ego aside and opened his arms to whatever Jimmy Johnson wanted to do.  Instead, Marino wanted to keep doing things "the old way", and guess what - the same "old" thing happened - they never won a Super Bowl.  JJ had proved that he could take the worst NFL franchise (Dallas in 1989) and turn it into a complete dynasty franchise.  Chances are, he could have done the same here in Miami, if certain people allowed him to.

I think it's hard to compare the 90s Cowboys to the Fins of the 2000s.  Johnson started at the bottom.  He made one big trade (might've just been lucky on his part) that worked out great for him, and gave him 3 key guys to build an offense around....then he build up the d over the years, and BAM -- Super Bowl.

With the Fins, Jimmy had to deal with salary cap, and starting from the middle is a lot harder than starting from the top.  He never had that elite pick to bulid the franchise.

no, but Saban did  ;D

But didn't he draft Zach Thomas?? That worked out pretty well.

And John Avery?
And Yatil Green?
And Cecil Collins?

Jtex,

Marino's receivers his last few years: O.J. McDuffie (playing hurt), Lamar Thomas, Oronde Gadsden, Charles Jordan.  His running backs:  Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Cecil Collins, James Johnson.  His tight end:  Troy Drayton.

Let's compare that to the Cowboys:  Michael Irvin, Alvin Harper.  Emmitt Smith.  Jay Novacek.

It would've been much easier to argue your point if Marino had had some offensive talent with whom to play (look what happened to Favre this year when he was left with CFL talent.)  Jimmy Johnson's sin was that he selected sub par players with his # 1 draft picks.  Let's look at it this way:  
1995:  Shula selects Billy Milner.  Could've had:  Derrick Brooks
1996: Johnson selects Daryl Gardener.  Nice choice. B-U-T Could've had:  Eric Moulds, Ray Lewis.
1997: Yatil Green. (OY!!)  Could've had:  Antowain Smith or Corey Dillon.
1998: Traded down with Green Bay and got...John FRIGGIN Avery. (Lord have mercy)  Could've had: Randy FREAKING Moss or Flozell Adams.

Now, let's add Ray Lewis, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, and Derrick Brooks to the 1998 - 1999 Dolphins...do they lose 63-7 to the Jaguars?  Maybe they don't win the SuperBowl, but really, can you think of a team that more consistently blew their # 1 picks and somehow still managed to win more than they lost?  I can't.  That speaks to Marino's ability to do it on his own.

come on, let's be fair...


it was only 62 to 7...

::)

I can't believe JTEX tried to throw Tony Martin in our face as a good player. I can only speak for myself, but would be surprised if the majority of this board was not happy when he left Miami. You think people complain about Chambers dropping a ball, throw one to Martin and see what happens.

I'd forgotten...the D actually "stopped" the Jags for 2 field goals that day...Must've been when Fiedler got into the game... ::)

I thought Tony Martin was a decent WR who just sucked ass as a Dolphin.  But when he came to Miami he was good (and then didn't he go to a Super Bowl as a San Diego Charger??)

He did play well in SD. He had six total seasons in Miami and only one of them was any good.

Tony Martin started in Miami, then went to San Diego, and Atlanta, then came BACK to Miami for like 1 or 2 seasons and left again.  Tony Martin was like a #3 WR and thus not a significant part of the Marino era, and has no business being mentioned in this thread.

Very well said.

That has been my argument for years.  I never blame QB's for not winning Super Bowls because this is a TEAM sport in every, way shape and form.  Unlike the NBA where all you need is that one superstar to put you over the top cuz he'll dump in 30+ points a night.  Or that one pitcher who'll shut you down each time in MLB.  Or that incredible goalie who'll stone you each game in the NHL. 

Marino's story is a tragedy,  the greatest QB ever to never win a Super Bowl.  But you get schmucks like Brady who get a solid team around them and are instantly hailed as one of the best EVER.  WTF!  Records make a great player.  Super Bowls make a great team.  The Dolphins had 1 losing season w/ Marino under center.  Even so,  no one ever factors the defense and lack of at least a "threat" of a running game. 

JJ was at the ass end of his career and would have taken him longer to build up a winner in Miami than in Dallas because of the trade he pulled off,  luck?  Maybe.  He built up a solid D. here,  but also handcuffed the best passer in history by trying to (hard headedly) establish a damn run.   JJ's ego hurt this team too by trying to find the next Emmitt Smith.  Sorry buddy,  your 15 minutes were up after you left Dallas.

I don't know, T-God, but this might just be the first time we've disagreed on any sports-related issue up here. Had to happen eventually, I guess...  ;)

I don't mind a good cross-sport comparison, but saying all you need is one superstar in the NBA is a head-scratcher. The two best teams in the NBA (Detroit, San Antonio) are the two best teams because they have the two best "teams," not because they have one superstar and a bunch of mediocre bums. The biggest "superstar" in the NBA (Kobe Bryant) has his squad mired in third place in his own division and has zero chance of winning anything other than a scoring title any time soon. Lebron James won't win anything until he gets a real team around him either.

Basketball is a team sport just like football...

You've got a point.  True.

Not quite.  One player in basketball is 20% of the starters.  One player in football is less than 5% of the starters.  Adding a Michael Jordan to a basketball team is the equivalent of adding 4 or 5 Hall of Famers to a football team.   Can anyone name a modern era football team with 4 or 5 HOFers that didn't win a Super Bowl or two?

Although I don't know if they will total 4-5 but the Buffalo Bills come to mind.

Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, & Bruce Smith (one in and two locks in my opinion) are there, but I can't come up with a fourth.

Andre Reed
Kent hall the Center from those SB teams
Cornelius Bennett
Darryl Talley
All HOF canidates this year (Prelims)