The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I thought I would pull JVides's post from another thread to make my point.  Here goes:


I agree 100%.  Now let's add a couple more.

1999-  Jimmy selects JJ Johnson after trading down.  Could've had Al Wilson

2001-  Wanny selects Jamar Fletcher.  Could've had Drew Brees, Fred Smoot or Reggie Wayne. 



Again, we can only speculate on how good the Dolphins would've been with all the "could've hads", but the fact is this:  With that type of track record, the Dolphins are extremely lucky they still had a winning team for a while.  Not a SINGLE ONE of those players drafted is currently on the Dolphins roster.  This pretty much proves that JJ was simply mediocre when drafting for the Dolphins.  He had just as many hits as misses.  And Wanny/Spielman...... let's not go there. 

You know, every 32 teams in the NFL "passed up" on a ton of people.  That's the draft, people, that's how it goes.  For every person that the Dolphins passed up (Moss, Tomlinson, Palmer, etc...), the rest of the 31 teams passed up on everyone else.

22 NFL teams passed on Dan Marino, too.

32 NFL teams passed on Zach Thomas - 3 times over!  Same for Tom Brady...

Brian threw out a Tom Brady reference and didn't bash him. It may be the end of the world as we know it.

I'm tired today - I'll be back to form after a good night's sleep...

Jtex, you're right about that.  My point in originally posting that statement was that Marino gets slammed by people for not being as great as we "Dolfans" say he is because he never won a ring.  But as you can see from the Dolphins drafts, the Phins managed to draft no one to help him in the first round except for:  Richmond Webb, Troy Vincent (who left after 3 years), Marco Coleman (ditto) and O.J. McDuffie.  Everyone else (over 17 years) didn't pan out too well.
As proof:
1984 - Jackie Shipp
1985 - Lorenzo Hampton
1986 - No # 1, Got John Offerdahl with their # 2
1987 - John Bosa
1988 - Eric Kumerow
1989 - Sammie Smith
1990 - Richmond Webb
1991 - Randal Hill (Traded to Arizona for a #1 in 1992)
1992 - Troy Vincent, Marco Coleman
1993 - O.J. McDuffie
1994 - Tim Bowens
1995 - Billy Milner
1996 - Daryl Gardener
1998 - John Avery.

These are ALL of the Marino era #1 picks.  You have 6 solid-to-very-good players (Webb, Vincent, Coleman, McDuffie, Bowens, Gardener), none of whom are or will be in the Hall of Fame, and 8 guys who didn't belong in the league (Shipp, Hampton, Bosa, Kumerow, Smith, Milner, Avery), including 6 straight years of suckage from 1984 to 1990.  It's no wonder the team never won it all under him.  For my next post, I'm going to compare all the 49er #1 picks during the Montana years. 

Good post.

I see where JTex is coming from, too, though.  It's hard to criticize the draft....over 17 years of crap -- okay criticize a bit....but you can't say "Oh, we could've gotten Moss..."  Every team does that every year, except the Vikings.

I see his point as well, though, really.  I remember like yesterday thinking "Reggie Wayne's there...GET HIM!!" the day the Dolphins selected Jamar Fletcher...It's one thing to say "they coulda had Kendall Simmons", it's quite another when they missed on a guy EVERYONE knew was going to be great. (Like Moss and Ray Lewis).  Most important, though, is the fact that the team drafted HORRIBLY for a stretch of 10 years, and not just in the first round.  Anyone remember Andrew Greene?  Eddie "The Earthquake" Blake? I could go on...and on...

People forget why we didn't draft Moss.  Nobody doubted his talent, but he was a headcase.  He had serious character issues coming into the draft.  Of all teams, you should understand why the Dolphins (who'd had terrible first round luck) would want to pass on a receiver for a guy who was less risky.  ...and we weren't the only ones.

The only draft pick I really look back on and say WTF was Jamar Fletcher...not because he didn't turn out well, but because we needed a QB so bad -- Brees was there, and to draft a cornerback seemed downright moronic.  We already had Madison and Surtain...it seemed like you could've pushed that need for a fifth corner down a bit.

To me, it's not about passing on Moss.  It's about JJ trading down before he knew who was going to be on the board and then trying to convince us it was OK because Larry Shannon was better than Moss anyway! 

Vonnie Holliday was the one chosen at our pick by the way.  We traded with Green Bay not Minnesota.  The next pick was Moss, so we could have had him if we wanted him.  Instead, we got video gamer John Avery who is smaller than Vonnie Holliday's thigh.

JJ let the media convince him he really was a draft guru so he thought he would be clever and make a trade before the draft even started.  Nice move JJ. 

The same thing was said about Warren Sapp, when he fell to the Buccaneers.  People worry about a guy because he tested positive for marijuana and compare him to a real headcase, like Lawrence Phillips.  I do understand why Johnson passed on Moss, but I never agreed with it, which is why I mentioned it.  Much like The_Phinatic, I was irked that Johnson traded with Green Bay before the draft even started, and then tried to say Larry Shannon would be better, and that John Avery was like "Emmitt Smith, only faster."

OK< as promised, a comparison to my earlier post, this time the 49ers of the early 80s through 1994:

1982 – No # 1
1983 – No # 1 , got Roger Craig with their # 2
1984 – Todd Shell
1985 – Jerry Rice
1986 – No # 1, got Tom Rathman, John Taylor, and Charles Haley in the 3rd and 4th rounds
1987 – Harris Barton, Terrence Flagler
1988 – No # 1
1989 – Keith DeLong
1990 – Dexter Carter
1991 – Ted Washington
1992 – Dana Hall
1993 – Dana Stubblefield, Todd Kelly
1994 – Bryant Young, William Floyd

So, we get: 1 Hall of famer (Jerry Rice), 5 Solid-to-great players (Barton, Washington, Stubblefield, Young, Floyd), a journeyman (Dexter Carter), and 4 busts (Shell, DeLong, Hall, Kelly).  More importantly, they hit on second-to-fourth round picks, like Craig, Haley, Taylor, Rathman; guys that were the "guts" of 4 of the 5 Super Bowl winning teams (along with Montana and Young, of course...)

Correct.  I'm glad you cleared this up.  Due to a pre-draft trade down, Miami never had the chance to draft Moss.

Too bad players aren't drafted after their careers so we all could have this type of hindsight.

Hampton and Smith both were rated highly, and Miami needed a running game.  (What they really needed was a change of philosophy but that's a different topic.)  Miami was the place RBs came to die during the Marino/Shula era.  Bobby Humphries, a budding super star for Denver, is evidence of that. 

Compare Hampton's 2nd season (his first as the feature back) to Ronnie Brown's first:

Hampton
186-830   4.5   9td, receiving 61-446 7.3 3
53% of team carries, 54% of team rushing yards

Ronnie Brown
207-907   4.4  4td, receiving 32-232 7.3   1
47% of team carries, 48% of team rushing yards

Sammie Smith was the big back that Shula wanted to complement Marino.  Who new he'd be a flake?  Was there any history of that at FSU?  It happens - Lawrence Phillips comes to mind.


Bosa made the All-rookie team before retiring due to an injury.  Kumerow.... he was eventually traded for a much needed solid starting CB, so, like Randall Hill, the choice was poor but not a total loss.

I think it may be a bit more accurate to blame Humphrey's demise on his cocaine arrest, the gunshot to his leg, and his kneee injuries.

  Sure, he could have had Wilson.  Though where would he be playing in Miami?

Its not like the MLB is being manned by some no name linebacker.

   Sure could have had Brees also.  I wonder what team he would be playing for now had Miami drafted him? 

Do you think Miami fans would have been quite while we waited 3 years for him to develop?  Don't think so.  They did not give AJ a year.

As for Wayne.  Another No. 2 Wr would have been nice, but Miami would have not drafted Chambers in Rd. 2 had they drafted Wayne in Rd. 1 & Chambers can fill the No. 1 slot in a offense.  Wayne cannot.


Yeap, JJ was very average.  He was average in Dallas also, just that he hit on a couple of picks & everyone forgets about his many misses.

You mock, but how exactly do you grade a draft if not with hindsight?  It's the only way to gauge a draft, man.  Every one of these players MUST have been highly rated to be a first round choice.  Nobody drafts  slow, weak players in the first round because they're really good locker room influences or really crack the coaching staff up, or because they perform really cool magic tricks when they visit the sick kids at hospitals.  The point is still valid: the Miami Dolphins drafted incredibly poorly in the mid 80s and pretty much all of the 90s.  Say what you will about one good season here or there, or a guy being traded for someone decent.  A first round pick is what your team builds around; a cornerstone.  A first round pick is supposed to give you at the very least 5 years of good if not excellent play.


Bobby Humphrey was no super star in Denver; he would've never been traded if he were.  He had two 1,000 yard seasons in his first 2 years, yes, but that's hardly what I'd call "super".  If he'd hit 1500 yards in Dan Reeves' run-heavy system, then maybe he'd have been headed for superstar level.   As Phishfan said, Humphrey's bullet wound and cocaine habit killed his career, not Shula's system, or Marino's audibles.

How do you know Wayne cannot be a # 1 receiver?  Peyton Manning has one of the best wide receivers in the league in Marvin Harrison; a true Hall of Fame guy.  Being a great # 1 does not mean you have to be a first ballot HOF guy.  Wayne has all the tools to be an excellent # 1 receiver.  He's pretty fast, has decent size, runs precise routes, goes down the middle of the field, and is extremely confident.

I was jumping up and down screaming "DRAFT WAYNE!!" on that day.  I remember watching as Peyton Manning (he was there being interviewed by ESPN) pumped his fist and nodded when the Colts picked Wayne.  Wayne and Chambers would have been a hell of a WR duo, in my opinion.

People forget Miami never had the chance to draft Moss.

JJ traded down before the draft ever started.  Had JJ known for that Moss would have falled to Miami then Moss would have been in Miami.  I only seen one mock suggesting Moss would fall & that was from the Sporting News.  Everyone else had him going top ten.

He had played two years at Marshall without trouble, so I wonder why people had such concern about him.
     
   Again Miami never passed on Moss.  They traded out of the 19 spot several hours before the drafted even started.  So Miami never passed on Moss.

   Miami was a  11 win team in '00.  Wanny thought Miami was close & since you have forgotten.  Miami's weak spot in '00 was 3rd CB.  So the drafting of a CB was not moronic.  The player they picked was.  Smoot was far better than Jamar.

As for Brees.    Yes, Miami needed a QB, but you have to look at it from Wanny point of view.  They won 11 games with Fiedler & Wanny thought Miami was close to being able to make a SB, so why would you draft a QB who most likely would not help you in '01 & as it turned out did not turn into a decent QB till '04.

I understand Wanny's thinking.  I just did not like the player picked.

  Yea, JJ was trying hard to cover his arse afterwards.

  Actually Terry Fair went after Holliday.  Moss then went.

  Yeap, JJ feel in love with that tag. 

People also forget that JJ traded that 2nd he got from GB to Det. for a 3rd, 5th & 6th.

Brad Johnson, Scott Shaw & John Dutton. 

Since you know JJ traded down before the draft & Moss was not expected to fall then how can you say JJ passed on him?  Pass means JJ actually had the chance to draft him & choose not too.

No matter what JJ ever said, he would have NEVER passed on Moss.

I never considered Smith a flake in his playing days.  The two goaline fumbles did him in as a Dolphin.  Fans hated him after them.   I think they destroyed any hope for him to make it as an NFL back.

Never followed him after the trade to Denver, but he failed there for whatever reasons.

Believe him to be too slow for a No. 1 & will stumble if having to face a teams No. 1 corner.  He is a solid No. 2 man though IMO.

Of course. No QB is going to be upset when the team brings in another weapon.

  I wanted Chambers


Miami would have not drafted Chambers in Rd. 2 had they taken Wayne in Rd. 1.

That does not explain 1992.  Here's a 1200 yard back who comes to Miami and gets relegated to a 3rd down pass catcher in favor of Mark Higgs.  WTF?

1989 den |  16 |   294   1151    3.9    7 |    22    156   7.1    1 |
1990 den |  15 |   288   1202    4.2    7 |    24    152   6.3    0 |
1991 den |   04 |    11     33    3.0    0 |     0      0   0.0    0 |
1992 mia |  16 |   102    471    4.6    1 |    54    507   9.4    1 |

After the 1989 and '90 seasons Bobby Humphrey was a league super star who was thought to be on his way to the Hall of Fame.  Miami made him a pass catcher?

The team originally held a pick that would have netted Moss.  The team traded the pick, assuming he would not be available.  Teams generally DO NOT trade picks before the teams are "on the clock", because a) a player they like may fall to them or b) a player some other team desperately wants might still be available at Miami's spot, increasing the amount received in return for the pick.  The trade of the pick was aberrant behavior, almost like JJ didn't even want to deal with the temptation of Moss being available.  So, yes, JJ PASSED on Moss even before the draft began.


He's a 4.5 guy.  He may not be blazing fast, but he's faster than one Jerry Rice who did quite well with "pedestrian" 4.6 speed.


Were you at some team meeting I didn't attend?  Is this fact or conjecture?

Oh, so now Miami ruined a Hall of Fame back, eh?  I almost spit up my coffee, man!
Let's get Edgerrin James into Canton RIGHT NOW before he goes to a team that ruins his chances, too!  Have you considered that perhaps 89 and 90 were the aberrations?  What happened in 1991?  Was he injured?  Suspended?  Did he blow up his knee?  Was he never the same afterwards?  Was he damaged goods?  Was his cocaine habit so out of control that he couldn't function? 

Bobby Humphrey held out almost an entire year in a contract dispute. Denver thought so highly of him they traded him for Sammy Smith who wasn't even starting for the Dolphins at the time. Mark Higgs was already the starter before Smith left.

Both guys played one season after the trade and then faded into obscurity. Last I heard Smith was in jail and Humphrey is a coach in the AFL2.

Since there was only one person who actually thought Moss would fall to Miami.   I think prior to the draft that was a safe assumption, since most thought he would go top 10.

  Yes, teams generally do not trade down & that is where you can blame JJ for jumping the gun, however he had no reason to expect Moss to fall there & GB was offering up a 2nd for the pick & I actually think JJ had Avery targeted & knew he could land him later in the Rd. 

  JJ would have been all over Moss like flies on cow dung.   Not one doubt JJ kicked himself for making that trade.

 Please do not tell me that you believe JJ was afraid of the temptation of Moss.  A man who drafted Collins & signed Phillips, brought in Holmes & many other questionable players in his time with the Boys & Phins.  Moss would have been just another player.

  As I like to say.  Calling a dog a cat does not make it a cat, its still a dog..  You can be correct in saying JJ did not have the foresight to believe he might have the chance at Moss or you can say JJ fell in love with his tag of draft guru & traded down for the sake of making a trade, but saying JJ passed on Moss when he never had the chance to draft him is very inaccurate.


Oh yea, lets compare one of the greatest WR to Wayne simply based on his speed.

There is track speed & football speed.  I'll leave it at that.  I might be wrong on Wayne but I doubt it.

Its not fact or conjecture.   It is common sense.

 Did you not know whom was doing the drafting for Miami?  A man who when in dire need of WR help, drafted a 5th Rd LB for special teams help in Rd. 2.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know Wanny would not draft Wr. in Rd. 1 & 2.  I can probably come close to say maybe one team in NFL history of the draft has ever done that.

One person?  No.  This sort of thing happens almost every few years.  Off the top of my head, I can think of Warren Sapp (form maybe # 1 overall to # 12), Aaron Rodgers to Green Bay, the aforemantioned Moss, Marino, even.  That's 4 in 23 years, no research involved.  You think I coult turn up another 5 or 6?  I'm sure I could.  Besides, we're arguing semantics here.  I say he passed on Moss by giving himself no shot at the guy (indirectly, as it were).


I believe JJ thought Moss to be overrated.  Dan LeBatard speaks of this all the time on his show, in his colums, in his sleep...  I believe JJ did not want to have to sit there with Moss on the board and then not pick him.  I believe Dolfans would've been out of control crazy, screaming that he'd done this to spite Marino by leaving him with a sub-par receiving crew for yet another season.


My response was made strictly to refute your claim that Wayne is too slow to be a true # 1.  As I'd stated before:  he does everything required of a # 1:  runs good routes, goes through the middle of the field.  I understand that you may think him to be another Peerless Price, and that's your prerogative.  I, however, will not discount Wayne as a possible # 1 until he fails to be one.


You are likely right, but realize:  this thread was about what the 'Phins screwed up in their drafting, not a profile on their drafting techniques.  A team in need of 2 wide receivers could logically be expected to draft 2 wide receivers.  I, too, wanted Chambers, but wanted Wayne as well.  I was tired of the "talent" (geriatric Fryar, Ingram, injured McDuffie, Lamar Thomas, Charles Jordan) Marino had been forced to throw to after Clayton and Duper were let go.

  Not sure what other players falling in other drafts have to do with  draft  people expecting Moss to fall.  Sure it happens from time to time, but that does not mean people expected Moss to fall.

The only person who actually predicted it was Dan Pompie ( However, his name is spelled)


  While yes this is semantics.  Pass implies being there & deciding not too take him.  JJ never decided not to take him.
 
   If you believe that, then I cannot prove differently since neither of us really know. But JJ track record says otherwise.

As for LeBatard.  He is a dumbarse in the largest sense of the word.

   Who would he have taken Vonnie Holliday?  That was the only player worthy of that pick.   JJ said several times, you gamble on greatness.  At 19 Moss would have been a worthy gamble.

Those fans would have been stupid.  JJ drafted one of the top Wr in Rd. 1 the year before.  People who believe JJ was out to destroy Marino are not very smart.  JJ wanted to win, not destroy Marino.

If JJ wanted to do that then he would have traded Marino for a bag of peanuts when he arrived in Miami.


      Wayne is football slow for a No. 1    Some players play faster than they run on a track in shorts.

Some players lose a step or two once the pads go on & some do not.  I do not think Rice did & I believe Wayne too.   

 I do not see that in Wayne.  I think he is slow & has been making a living facing lesser corners in the league because of Harrison.

I do not see Wayne learning to work harder to get open.  He has been in the league for 5 years going up against No. 2 or 3 CBs.  He is not us to facing No. 1 corners.  I think he will fail.  Not in the sense of Peerless, but one where the teams needs more production from the No. 1 slot.

I do not know how easy it would be but I doubt more than a few teams have selected two WR in both Rd. 1 & 2.

Also do not forget that Miami has signed McKnight in the off-season to man one of the starting Wr. Spots.  We know he sucked now, but then there was hope.

The fact is.......Shula failed Danny.  I hate to say that but it's the truth.  Look at what Danny did when Shula surrounded him with players like Clayton, Duper, and More.  He was unstoppable.  But after the early eighties, Shula failed miserably in the draft.  You just can't do that in the NFL.  This is especially the case during the pre-free-agency period.  I firmly believe that Danny would of won the "Big Show" if a coaching change would of been made earlier in his career.  Unfortunately, it was too late for Danny when Jimmy came in. 

In just his 2nd season Bobby Humphrey was one of the league's poster children.  While he had "only" gained 2353 yards in his first two seasons, the league marketed him heavily.  He was a fresh face on the rise. 

One fact is indisputable: In his first 31 games he averaged 19 carries for 76 yards.  In his one season with Miami he averaged 6 carries for 29 yards.   

Miami got their hands on a top 10 RB and turned him into a 3rd down pass catcher. 

"Ruined his career"?  What idiot said that?   

I agree with what you're saying, but I think that Wanny was wrong in his estimations.  We weren't close.  ...even at 11 wins, we weren't a Super Bowl calibur team.  ...we weren't balanced enough.  With the way the defensive unit was playing, compared to the offense, I find it strange that we didn't jump on the #1 QB in the draft.


Again, I think you're right in what Wanny was thinking, but it looks like Wanny was wrong.  Fiedler wasn't good enough....and despite any other talent we brought in, he couldn't get us there.  Wanny's drafting in that case was short-sided....you don't draft a QB for his skills NEXT YEAR...you draft him for his value for years to come. 

I understand Wanny's thinking. I just did not like the player picked.

  Not doubt Wanny was in denial , but I actually believe he thought Miami was close.

  Wanny was wrong, but you have to remember this is a man who did not like to throw so a QB was not high on his list.   He just wanted someone to not turn the ball over.

When a team is close you draft for the coming season early & two years down the road later.  Plus there were huge questions about Brees then.  There was a reason he lasted until Rd. 2.  Probably that is would be a few season before he was ready.

Miami would have ran him out of ton before he started to play well.  Heck they only gave AJ a couple of games.

I understand what you're saying.... but fact is those two guys panned out and the guys JJ and Wanny drafted didn't.  That's a fact, jack!!

Additionally, forget about this 1998 "Trade down before the draft started" stuff.  I was going from where the Dolphins ORIGINAL pick was. 

All I've ever said about the '98 draft is JJ never passed on Moss.  Yes, he could have had him, but he never made the decision to not draft Moss.

He made the decision to trade down.  By that token of reasoning, he passed up a chance to draft Moss, or Holliday. 

Yea, after the fact he did.   Passing on a .5% chance at something is not the same as actually passing on the player themself.   The way some are making it sound JJ was on the clock with Moss sitting there & he traded down.  As I stated earlier in this thread.  Moss was 99.5% considered a top 10 pick & potentially one of the best of all time coming into the NFL.

  Why would JJ even think he would fall all the way down to 19th? 

  As for Holliday his career has been avg. so missing out on him was nothing huge.  Yes, he would have been better than Avery.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense.