Obama not a natural born citizen argument

[pintofguinness14]

OK...one last time with lots of details:

Both parents are U.S. citizens:

If both of your parents were American citizens at the time of your birth, they will transmit citizenship to you regardless of the place of your birth.

One parent U.S. citizen:

Born after November 14, 1986 (this is the current standard): For children born on or after November 14, 1986, a child born to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent would acquire U.S. citizenship if the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for at least 5 years, at least 2 of which were after attaining the age of 14 years.

Born after December 24, 1952 (applies to Obama): A child born to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent would acquire U.S. citizenship if the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United states or its outlying possessions for at least 10 years prior to the child's birth. Five of the 10 years must have occurred after the age of 14 for the parent. Obama's mother clearly met this standard.

More thoughts: The concept of "presence" is used in the most literal way. The parent doesn't need to own a home or have a job or even an address. He/she could be on the streets for 10 years. All that matters is that the parent can prove he/she was present in the U.S. for the required period of time. Also, Military and other U.S. government service overseas counts towards presence in the U.S. McCain's father and mother, for example, would have been considered to be in the U.S. for the purposes of this Act regardless of where the elder McCain was deployed overseas. Were two non-U.S. citizen service members to have a child overseas, the child would not be a U.S. citizen.

Can we put this question to bed now?

[Spider-Dan]

It is obvious that since Obama was born in Hawaii, none of this "residency time" stuff applies to him.

However, strictly speaking, would a person who was born outside the country to alien+citizen parents (with the citizen parent not in military service) qualify as a "natural-born citizen"?  The qualification for President is not just a citizen; you must be a natural-born citizen.

[pintofguinness14]

It is obvious that since Obama was born in Hawaii, none of this "residency time" stuff applies to him.

However, strictly speaking, would a person who was born outside the country to alien+citizen parents (with the citizen parent not in military service) qualify as a "natural-born citizen"?  The qualification for President is not just a citizen; you must be a natural-born citizen.

To the best of my knowledge, Congress has defined "natural born citizen." In the absence of a law stating otherwise, I would assume anyone who attained citizenship at birth (either through transmission as described above or through presence in the U.S.) would be considered a natural born citizen. Otherwise, McCain would not be eligible either because he was not born in the U.S. or a U.S. possession (canal zone doesn't count). He attained citizenship because of his parents.

[run_to_win]

Yup. He was born in Panama.

Do all people in the NE consider Central America "overseas" or just you geniuses?

[pintofguinness14]

Answer the question Einstein.  Over which sea is that?

very funny 

anyway, the canal zone was not considered to be a "U.S. possession." If you're parents were Panamanian and you happened to be born in the canal zone, you would not be a U.S. citizen.

[run_to_win]

Can we put this question to bed now?

I thought we did back around reply #25 or 26. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I thought we did back around reply #25 or 26. 

Yeah, we did. Now we are just discussing if the gulf of mexico is a sea. 

"More and more of our imports come from overseas."  - George W. Bush

[run_to_win]

"More and more of our imports come from overseas."  - George W. Bush.

China is overseas.  I think we've found the one person who would get his assed handed to him by President Bush on Jeopardy.

People in New England are amazing.  They've figured out ways to drive to overseas countries like Mexico and Canada!  Frickin' brilliant!

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

China is overseas.  I think we've found the one person who would get his assed handed to him by President Bush on Jeopardy.

People in New England are amazing.  They've figured out ways to drive to overseas countries like Mexico and Canada!  Frickin' brilliant!

I will take world leaders for $500.  Chechnya, India and Pakistan.

[Spider-Dan]

Disclaimer: this tangent has nothing to do with Obama

In the absence of a law stating otherwise, I would assume anyone who attained citizenship at birth (either through transmission as described above or through presence in the U.S.) would be considered a natural born citizen. Otherwise, McCain would not be eligible either because he was not born in the U.S. or a U.S. possession (canal zone doesn't count).

Earlier, you said:

"Also, Military and other U.S. government service overseas counts towards presence in the U.S. McCain's father and mother, for example, would have been considered to be in the U.S. for the purposes of this Act regardless of where the elder McCain was deployed overseas."

I took that to mean that any child born to a citizen in service overseas is considered to have been "born in the United States" for purposes of determining citizenship, and would therefore be a natural-born citizen even if he were born on the steps of the Kremlin.

Furthermore, if a citizen had a child with an alien in a foreign country, but was not yet old enough to have met the "5 years residency after the age of 14" requirement, then her child would not be a citizen at birth, and would only acquire citizenship after she had fulfilled said residency requirements.

[pintofguinness14]

Disclaimer: this tangent has nothing to do with Obama
Earlier, you said:

"Also, Military and other U.S. government service overseas counts towards presence in the U.S. McCain's father and mother, for example, would have been considered to be in the U.S. for the purposes of this Act regardless of where the elder McCain was deployed overseas."

I took that to mean that any child born to a citizen in service overseas is considered to have been "born in the United States" for purposes of determining citizenship, and would therefore be a natural-born citizen even if he were born on the steps of the Kremlin.

Furthermore, if a citizen had a child with an alien in a foreign country, but was not yet old enough to have met the "5 years residency after the age of 14" requirement, then her child would not be a citizen at birth, and would only acquire citizenship after she had fulfilled said residency requirements.

The transmission issue described in your first para applies to cases in which only one parent is a U.S. citizen, so it doesn't apply to McCain since both of his parents were U.S. citizens. To address your question, it's not that the child is considered to have been born in the U.S., but that the time outside of the U.S. would not count against the parent's presence requirement. I know, it's complicated. Basically, if you're born overseas and one of your parents is not a U.S. citizen, then the parent who is a U.S. citizen must meet the presence requirement outlined a few posts ago in order to transmit citizenship to you. For the purposes of that requirement, and overseas posting in government service would not count against the parent.

I'm not certain of the answer to your second question, but my guess is that if a U.S. citizen (say, 16 years old) has a child with an alien overseas then that child would not attain citizenship at birth. Like I said, I'm not 100% sure. I'm sure there is a precedent, though. I'd need to look up the case law.