Marino fans vs Dolphin fans

[Rick]

Am I the only "old school" Miami Dolphin who's a bit leary of/irritated by "Johnny come lately" fans who only began following the team/sport because of Dan Marino?

Are there any "ancient-school" fans who are leary of/irritated by fans who only began liking the Dolphins because they were THE TEAM back in the early 70s?
 

  Sounds like you are the only one leary of/ irritated by us younger Dolphin fans.  It is silly to question a person's reasons for liking the Miami Dolphins.  We all have our reasons for following and rooting for the Miami Dolphins.  I am just glad there are alot of Dolphin fans out there who support there team through good times and bad times.  I do not care if they were a fan for 2 years or 42 years.  We all have one goal, and that is to see the Miami Dolphins hoiste the Lombardi trophy once again. 
   
   

[Defense54]

  

We all have one goal, and that is to see the Miami Dolphins hoiste the Lombardi trophy once again. 

   
   
 Hell.........I'll settle for 8-8 right now....

[run_to_win]

This thread was inspired comments such as the following in the "All time favorite dolphin " thread":

"Easily Dan Marino. No other player has ever always given us a chance to win at any given time."

"Marino could do nothing more than "have to" try to come back by utilizing his insane abilities. "

==========

My opposition to these statements is that football is a  team game.  Has one player ever won a Super Bowl?

Barry Sanders, Anthony Munoz, Randy Moss, Dick Butkus ... etc, etc, etc.  None of them could do it alone. 



I found these comments humorous/disturbing.

"If you don't want those of us who started following the Dolphins because of Dan Marino, we will be happy to take our loyalty elsewhere."

"I could have followed the Patriots after Marino retired."

"Those of you that think you are a better fan because you watched them back in 66 can kiss my ass."

[Phishfan]

I found these comments humorous/disturbing.


"I could have followed the Patriots after Marino retired."

This seems like tabloid quoting at it's finest. The way it reads you make it seem this person wanted to be a Pats fan when indeed the full quote is quite the opposite.

[JeffJewell]

My context: 42 year-old life-long Dolphin fan who vividly remembers the Perfect Season... and who has worn #13 since childhood after my very first "favorite Dolphin," Super Bowl MVP Jake Scott.

In general, I have no problem with fans who were "born too late" to remember the glory years... nor even the increasing number of fans for whom the Marino era is a dusty, historical time frame.  So in that sense, I'm not concerned if one became a Dolphin fan simply because Dan Marino was the guy who first attracted their attention.

The problem brought to my mind by the phrase Marino fans vs Dolphin fans is that I disagree with that subset of fans (old and new) who appear to believe the Dolphins' single roadblock to success is (still) replacing Dan Marino.

First off, there's no replacing Dan Marino.  Many fans don't even realize what a physical freak Marino was... sure, even before blowing out the Achilles' Marino was about as mobile as a folded-out sofabed, but no one ever had a quicker release or a more compact motion or a more powerful, accurate arm than Dan Marino.  Marino could throw 35 yard lasers from "pockets" most QBs couldn't find room to dump off out of.  Bill Walsh famously said that Joe Montana was the product of a system, Dan Marino was a system... that was what he meant: Marino could simply do things it was not (and is not) reasonable to expect your quarterback to be able to do.

In other words, if folks who think we need to replace Marino to succeed are correct, then it's likely to never happen.  I don't expect to see another freak like Marino in my lifetime.

The other problem that position is, obviously, the uncomfortable truth that we never won a championship with Marino.

Like I say, there are fans from all eras who seem to place way to much emphasis on the Dolphins "replacing" a guy for whom there will be no replacement... and it's that kind of "Marino fan" I tend to disagree with, not those fans who just happen to be the right age to have grown up with Dan.

[run_to_win]

The problem is not with the fans themselves... just their general opinion that he was responsible for everything good that happened to this franchise while he was around.

Even in the NFL Films special about Marino, "Heart of a Champion", people mention that Marino wasn't a very attentive student of the game.  His downfall quite possibly could have been having too much confidence in his own abilities.  Ball control drives, short passes with a few runs, may have helped compensate for a struggling defense.

I'm a Marino fan.  He was a great passer, possibly the best in the history of the game.  I just don't think he was a God who carried a team without much talent. 



Here's the list of QB's that played in the Super Bowl during the Marino era:  How many of these guys are in the same "league"as Marino?

Aikman 3-0
Montana 3-0
Elway 2-3
Favre 1-1
Hostettler 1-0
McMahon 1-0
Plunkett 1-0
Rypien 1-0
Simms 1-0
Warner 1-0
Williams 1-0
Young 1-0
Bledsoe 0-1
Chandler 0-1
Eason 0-1
Esiason 0-1
Humphries 0-1
Marino 0-1
McNair 0-1
O’Donnell 0-1
Theisman 0-1
Kelly 0-4

[ethurst2]

In the Pre-Marino years, the fans that grew up with the Dolphins from 1966 to 1982 saw the Miami Dolphins more as a team instead of a one man show. You had guys that were stars (Csonka, Griese, Kiick, Bounticonti, Scott and Warfield) but for some reason, things were balanced with all props going to Shula and his coaching staff (which consisted of six people as opposed to Nick Sabans' kingdom of 25 coaches).

I'm doing a retrospective on Dan Marinos’ career which should be ready in two weeks for posting on this site. I won't reveal anything now because I’m still doing research. The reason why I decided to do it is because you have several schools of Dolphin fans and their opinions regarding Dan Marino:

1. Marino could have won Super Bowls but he never had a defense or running game.
2. Miami relied too much on Marinos’ arm.
3. Miami didn't have players to compliment Marino.
4. Marino could not have won with the running backs that Miami had.
5. Is Marino in the top five of quarterbacks of all-time.

Someone took a shot at John Elway in an earlier post and I will say this not because I live in Denver and have affiliations here but John Elway did more with less than any other quarterback that I’ve ever seen. Almost single handedly, he took the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls on his back. He didn’t come into a favorable situation in Denver because the Broncos were in a rebuilding phase and he had a button down coach from the Tom Landry school of coaching players (Dan Reeves) when the NFL was radically changing. Reeves put the handcuffs on Elway until the fourth quarter when he found out that his style of calling offense wasn’t working. Hence there you have the reason why John Elway was called the “Comeback Kid”.

The reason why Elway didn’t want to play for the Colts was because Frank Kush, HC of the Colts at that time and Johns’ father, Jack Elway were coaching rivals in college at one time that didn’t like each other. The move in the middle of the night out of Baltimore was not cool either and showed lack of commitment. That’s why Elway forced a trade.

Marino came into a better situation than any other quarterback out of the Class of 1983.

The youngsters that grew up with Dan Marino are Dolphin fans too. I think that the senior members should realize that and teach them a little bit of the old history too. I’m a serious Dolphin analyst ( I say analyst because the world fan comes with blinders). I’m their favorite analyst!

But the Miami Dolphins franchise are humans too and like us, they pick their favorites. That's why you don't hear anything about the pre-1970 Miami Dolphins.

The Dolphins Alumni and franchise don’t recognize the pre-1970 Dolphins. I have a problem with this because those teams had some talent. They were just in an expansion phase. Teams that followed Miami in expansion didn’t have the success that Miami had which before pre-agency, made the Dolphins the quickest team to have success in NFL history.

I have never heard of a function, party or local retrospective on those earlier expansion Dolphins. It’s almost like those guys don’t exist. NFL Films has a segment on those pre-1970 Dolphin teams and the stories are interesting. Maybe for the 50th Anniversary, they will do a DVD or have a book written including those guys.

 Everything is from 1972 on and it’s a shame because the first coach of the Dolphins, George Wilson, simply ran out of time. He would have had the Dolphins in at least two Super Bowls anyway.

Wilson coached the last championship that the Detroit Lions ever won in 1957. The Lions haven’t been back to a championship or Super Bowl since. It was Wilson that was regarded as the “next Lombardi”.

Here’s his track record. Notice that ALL of these players had a hand in the earlier Dolphin playoff successes and Super Bowls. These are the free agent acquisitions and drafts under George Wilson.

Free Agents
1969 CB Mack Lamb to San Diego for G Larry Little*
1969 Manny Fernandez DT*

Expansion Draft 1966
Norm Evans*
Wahoo McDaniel  N.Y. Jets
Dick Westmoreland – From San Diego (Holds the record for most interceptions in a season)
Jimmy Warren    CB    Illinois*

The Draft

1966
Round   Player    Draft Position  Position   School

12    Howard Twilley (101)    WR    Tulsa  ( Ironically, scored the Dolphins first touchdown in Super Bowl 7)

1967
1    Bob Griese (4)    QB    Purdue 2 
2    Jim Riley (29)    DT    Oklahoma
7    Larry Seiple (163)    P/RB    Kentucky

1968
1a    Larry Csonka (    RB    Syracuse
1b    Doug Crusan (27)    T    Indiana      (from Cincinnati for John Stofa)
3b    Dick Anderson (73)    S    Colorado      (from San Diego for John Brittenum)
5      Jim Kiick (118)    RB    Wyoming

1969
1    Bill Stanfill (11)    DE    Georgia
2    Bob Heinz (37)    DT    Pacific
3    Mercury Morris (63)    RB    West Texas State
9    Jesse Powell (219)    LB    West Texas State
16  Lloyd Mumphord (401)    CB    Texas Southern

This proves that George Wilson, NOT Don Shula, drafted the players that would have an impact in all three Super Bowl runs. Shula was on bad terms with the owner in Baltimore and Miami Herald Sportswriter Edwin Pope had the inside track to actually get Shula to Miami. Rozelle fined the Dolphins a draft pick but Carroll Rosebloom had already fired Shula when Rozelle docked the Dolphins. Rozelle didn't want Shula to leave Baltimore during a year in which the merger had just taken place. Rozelle at that time didn't want too many marquee names jumping teams.

But does George Wilson and the earlier Dolphins get the credit for laying the seeds for the earlier Dolphin successes? I would say that to the average fan, no, because no one likes to remember the tough years. Does Danny Thomas the entertainer get credit for putting up the money to get a franchise to Miami? No. We remember Wayne Huizenga and him already having millions. Contrary to what people want to believe, Joe Robbie was not a rich man. He didn’t become rich until the mid 80’s and he took his money to build JRS.

Does Joe Auer get credit for scoring the first Dolphins touchdown by running the opening kickoff back in their first regular season play ever?

We rarely hear about the old guard that paved the way for the Dolphins success until now.
I wish that the Dolphins as a franchise would recognize the pre-1970 Dolphins and honor those guys too.

And by the way, George Wilson was a great talent evaluator. The best coach that the Dolphins ever had at the draft board wasn’t Don Shula or Jimmy Johnson but George Wilson.

[ethurst2]

The problem is not with the fans themselves... just their general opinion that he was responsible for everything good that happened to this franchise while he was around.

Even in the NFL Films special about Marino, "Heart of a Champion", people mention that Marino wasn't a very attentive student of the game.  His downfall quite possibly could have been having too much confidence in his own abilities.  Ball control drives, short passes with a few runs, may have helped compensate for a struggling defense.

I'm a Marino fan.  He was a great passer, possibly the best in the history of the game.  I just don't think he was a God who carried a team without much talent. 

Here's the list of QB's that played in the Super Bowl during the Marino era:  How many of these guys are in the same "league"as Marino?

Aikman 3-0
Montana 3-0
Elway 2-3
Favre 1-1
Hostettler 1-0
McMahon 1-0
Plunkett 1-0
Rypien 1-0
Simms 1-0
Warner 1-0
Williams 1-0
Young 1-0
Bledsoe 0-1
Chandler 0-1
Eason 0-1
Esiason 0-1
Humphries 0-1
Marino 0-1
McNair 0-1
O’Donnell 0-1
Theisman 0-1
Kelly 0-4

The question should be "why did Dan Marino with a team that had 55 Pro Bowl players during his tenure fail in the playoffs repeatedly when they did have the team to get to the Super Bowl?" (Scratch the scrubs).

What was the REAL reason that Marino fell to number 27 in the 1983 draft. My thoughts are that Marino could throw the ball. He was a student of throwing the ball but as far as his all around game (running backs, running game, mobility and other quarterbacking intangibles that require NOT throwing the ball) knocked him down on the draft board.

Marino is not on the All-Decade 1980 NFL List. Dan Fouts and Joe Montana are.
He's not on the All-Decade 1990 NFL List. John Elway and Brett Farve are.

Dan Fouts, a pre-cursor to the "throw for what you know" movement in the NFL didn't go to a Super Bowl. We know the story with Joe Montana, Elway and Farve.

What is the definition of talent and do you always need talent to win?

The 1981 San Francisco 49ers had the least talent of any Super Bowl team that I've ever seen and they beat a highly talented Cincinatti team in the Super Bowl. No one remembers Bill Ring, Linville Elliott, Ricky Patten or Freddie Solomon ( who the Dolphins drafted and traded for Delvin Williams). I doubt that Dan Bunz, Keith Farnhurst or Earl Cooper will make the Hall of Fame.

The 1988 Washington Redskins went into the Super Bowl to play with a backup quarterback (Doug Williams) and a rookie running back (Timmy Smith). They had the HOGS and walloped Denver that year.

The 1980 Oakland Raiders (the first wild card team to make it to the dance) beat a powerful balanced Dick Vermeil coached Philadelphia Eagles team. Oakland had Kenny King at running back, Bob Chandler at wide receiver and Jim Plunkett at quarterback. That's talent.

Look no further than the 2007 N.Y. Giants that just won the Super Bowl. No running game without Tiki Barber? Who is Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw. They won't win without Jeremy Shockey and their secondary has an old man past his prime, Sam Madison and a bunch of guys that looked like at the beginning of the year that they would be worse than the Dolphins secondary.

Yet Eli Manning has a ring.

Now compare that to the 1983 team that Marino joined. Dwight Stephenson, maybe one of THE BEST to ever play the game, Bob Kuechenberg that should be in the Hall Of Fame. A receiving corps with Mark Duper coming off an injury, Jimmy Cefalo and Nat Moore, masters at running pass patterns, a great tight end in Bruce Hardy and a rookie named Mark Clayton and lets not forget the Killer B defense with Doug Betters as NFL Defensive Player of the Year. A top five defense with a hard hitting secondary.

Yes, Marino could "throw" the ball and his motion was compact but here's the deal. You have to be proficient at all levels (faking the handoffs, audibilizing to running plays, using hard counts, etc) to be a complete quarterback. It's more than just throwing the ball.

And the argument about having the most talented team to win anything doesn't fly. What about the 2001 New England Patriots that beat the St. Louis Rams in the Super Bowl? J.R. Redmond and Kevin Faulk at running back? Jermaine Wiggins at Tight End? The only receiver that I remember is Troy Brown yet they beat the Steelers on the road (a far superior team) to win the AFC Championship and still won the Super Bowl.

And most of us said that the Pats would have a greater chance with Bledsoe at quarterback instead of a guy named Tom Brady.

I will say this...In the one playoff game that Miami TOTALLY dominated the opposition during the Marino era, the Dolphins ran for 180 yards on the ground and Marino didn't throw much and they beat the snot out of San Diego 31-0. That was the most decisive playoff game in Marino's era and he simply didn't throw the ball that much. Miami had Bobby Humphery and a guy named Aaron Craver in the backfield.

And there were times when Miami, during Marinos' years were ranked in the top ten as far as overall defense. When you play 17 years, you're going to have some crapped out teams. That's the luck of the draw.

Desire trumps talent any time so here's the real question. Did Marino and Shula trust too much in his right arm instead of balancing the whole load? Whose fault was it that Dan Marino didn't get back to the Super Bowl.

I say that Marino is at fault too.

As for defensive help, you can pretty much include Marino on this one. Dan had a lot of say in personnel matters and you can tell that his decisions were to bring in receivers that can catch the ball. I don't think that he recommended too many defensive linemen and cornerbacks. Look at the Tony Martin situation. He damned near sold his sold to get a washed up Tony Martin back to Miami.

Look at free agency during the Marino period. It's lopsided for the offensive side of the ball. The only name I can remember on the defensive side of the ball that Miami went after as far as a trade or free agent was Tim McKyer back in 1990. Ironically, the Dolphins finished 11-5 that year, had a top five defense and looked balanced for the first time in years but fell to Buffalo 44-34 in a shootout because Louis Oliver kept getting lost in coverage and was benched in the second half.

In the coming weeks, The Marino File is coming to TDMMC full with stats and scenarios and actual game breakdowns of some key plays. Marino is from the line of the best "throwing" quarterbacks with accuracry and touch (Namath, Fouts, Daryle Lamonica , Slingin' Sammy Baugh and Roman Gabriel).