Red Sox & Marlins still talking swap?

[MaineDolFan]

According to some sources at the Boston Herald and Miami Herald, Florida and Boston got a lot closer to a trade that would have sent Hanley Ramirez to Boston than either team will admit.

The interesting thing is that the talks were never completely broken off.

The Marlins are so high on Mike Stanton and Logan Morrison that they might be willing to part ways with Hanley. 

The pieces, as being discussed now, would be:

Marlins get:  Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden, Jacoby Ellsbury

Red Sox get:  Kyle Skipworth and Hanley Ramirez

Michael Bowden is currently Boston's top pitching prospect (if you don't include Buchholz as a prospect anymore) and grades out as a B+ prospect.  He is projected with top of the rotation potential with four pitches.  Four seam that he runs up at 95mph, a 12/6 curve, a nasty circle change and an effective change up.  His change up is actually pretty freaky, he dips it down to about 81 or 82. 

Bowden's 22 years old and sports really fantastic numbers so far in the minors:  30-19 record, combined 3.10 ERA in 489.50 innings pitched, 564 strike outs (well over one per inning) with only 107 walks issued.  The guy throws strikes.

My personal take is that this is WAY too high a price for Boston to pay.  I still say Buchholz is going to be SICK good, a legit #2 within a couple years.  By 2012 the only pitcher in Boston's rotation that was drafted by Boston will be Beckett.  Ellsbury is going to have a ridiculous year, especially with the glove.  Florida is very high on Ellsbury because of his ability to play all outfield positions with gold glove caliber defense.  The pitching that Florida is lining up, combined with rock solid defense, will be staggering.  Add Buchholz and Bowden to the stable of guys they already have?  Might as well hand the NL East title to them for the next 5-8 years.

As much as I love Hanley, and I really do, you can't give up three prospects of this caliber to get him.

Thoughts?

[Sunstroke]

This sounds more like a Red Sox wet dream than anything tangible...and I'd drop solid odds on a side bet that this never gets past the "unconfirmed rumors" stage.

[SportsChick]

Upside to this horrible deal is that I have a season ticket package to the Marlins and would be able to see Jacoby for 15 games

[Sunstroke]

I like Jacoby...Maine will back me up on this, but NO WAY you trade Hanley for a package of players where Jacoby is the best player coming back in the deal.

Hanley is a unique talent. Middle infielders who can hit .315 with 30+ HR/30+ SB don't come around very often. Combine that with his hispanic heritage and a great humble personality, and he is the type of player you want anchoring a baseball franchise in S FL.

[Fau Teixeira]

how would jacoby fare hitting #2 ?

[MaineDolFan]

^Very well, I think.

Watch this year, Ellsbury is going to hit .310 / 15 / 70 in addition to stealing 60 bags.

And I would strongly disagree with Ellsbury being "the best player in the package."  Print this thread, save it - whatever.  Within two years Buchholz and Bowden will both be 2.90 / 15-20 win guys in this league and sitting in #2 and #3 slots on someone's team.  Hopefully Boston's.  My dream line up:

1 - Beckett
2 - Lester
3 - Masterson
4 - Buchholz
5 - Bowden

Thank you, Good night.

And unless Hanley has changed a ton since I knew him here in Portland...the kid was* a punk with a massive attitude problem and a bad defensive glove.***

*"Is" to "was" to outline a personal opinion based on previous knowledge
***Highlighting very important aspects of my statement.

This isn't "Maine's" wet dream at all because in my humble opinion we've got a keeper in Jed Lowrie.  He won't pop 30 in a year (more like 15) but he will also only commit 5-10 errors a season and not 45.

Maine edit to outline my point even more clearly.

[Fau Teixeira]

i have faith in larry beinfest ..he's proved it time and again .. he knows how to evaluate talent and trade it in order to get even better talent .. if he's on board with this trade, then i'm all for it

[Sunstroke]

And unless Hanley has changed a ton since I knew him here in Portland...the kid is a punk with a massive attitude problem and a bad defensive glove.

The second part of that is fairly well documented, but unless you can provide ANY sort of reference for the first part other than "I think he's a punk...," then the fact that it contradicts everything I've seen of the guy makes me have to discard it completely.

Unless Hanley was only a punk around you and no one else, then surely SOMEONE has written something about it somewhere. Smearing a kid off-hand like that without posting any links to anything to support it seems like poorer form than I've come to expect from you.

[MaineDolFan]

Unless Hanley was only a punk around you and no one else, then surely SOMEONE has written something about it somewhere. Smearing a kid off-hand like that without posting any links to anything to support it seems like poorer form than I've come to expect from you.

You're kidding, right?  Hanley's attitude problems while in Boston's system are well known.  He rubbed everyone the wrong way.  Granted he was also drafted at 16 - and any 16 year old that gets a gabillion dollars thrown at him will think his shit doesn't stink.  But he walked around Hadlock with a very piss poor attitude right up until the time he left.  And I think you damn well know it.  It was well known in the minors that the kid fancied himself as Manny before he ever did a thing in the big leagues.

So - again - unless he's done a complete 180, there is still some of that punk in him.  Maybe I'm wrong about now, I'm not wrong about then.  It's too bad that the site crashed because I talked about Hanley as Boston's top prospect here quite a bit - including his attitude problems.

All that said:  I didn't say that the guy is Gary Sheffield.  And I also said that I love the kid.  You show me a 20 year old with that type of talent, and money, that doesn't have an attitude problem and I'll show you a liar.  BJ Upton was a HUGE jerk when he was called up at 19 years old.  He's leveled out for the most part.  It happens - but BJ has had some hiccups along the way as well (including last season). 

[Brian Fein]

from the fan's standpoint, nothing would drive the little support they have now away from the ballpark more than trading Hanley Ramirez.

Why do they always shop the fan favorite?  If you think the average Marlins' fan knows who Jacoby Ellsbury is, I'd bet you were wrong.

[MaineDolFan]

I think more people than you think might know who Ellsbury is due to what he did in the 2007 World Series as a rookie that had never played above AA ball when he was called up for the playoff run.  That World Series was one of the highest rated ever.  He stole a base that gave America a free taco from Taco Bell and they ran a full page color ad in the USA Today with Ellsbury's picture as he stole the base.

That said - if you compare Ellsbury and Hanley head to head it's not even close.  Ellsbury is a great defensive player...but he also plays center field.  Outside of catcher, short stop is the most demanding defensive position on the field.  Ellsbury is fast and will swipe you 50+ bags...but Hanley is fast and will swipe you 30+ bags AND hit 40 home runs.

Another huge downfall for this deal, if true, is that Ellsbury has hired Scott Boras as an agent.  When he gets to FA status there is no way Florida would be able to keep him...and they've already locked up Hanley.  And I ragged on Hanley's attitude problems (at least from the past) so I need to be upfront with Ellsbury's...he is a little prima donna himself right now.

All told I think this would be a good deal for Florida in the following aspects:  They would build, hands down, the best pitching rotation in baseball.  Period, end of story.  And they have some really nice power coming up through the system.  But as Stroke said, Hanley is generally one of those players you don't give up unless you're getting something amazing in return.  Buchholz and Bowden are GOING to be great.  When Boston traded Hanley they did so for a player that was ALREADY great (Beckett). 

If I'm Florida and Boston wanted Hanley?  I would say "sure, no sweat.  The price is Ellsbury, Lars Anderson and JON LESTER.  Anything less and don't ask again."