Ray Lewis visits with 10-year-old orphan

[David Fulcher]

Lots of MLBs benefit from big boys up front, yet they aren't in the discussion of best middle linebacker of all time.
The Ravens are not the Cowboys or Steelers or Packers.  The only reputation they have is what Ray Lewis himself was personally involved in establishing (he was literally the first draft pick of the Ravens' franchise).

Not to be too particular, Spider, but actually Jonathan Ogden was at #4.  Baltimore had 2 1st round picks in '96 for whatever reason. 

Otherwise, though, I do agree with what you're saying for the most part.  However, I'm also with BigDaddyFin in that as good as Lewis has been (and fairly consistently at that), I do think the NFL hype machine has played a role in leading us to believe he's the greatest MLB/ILB ever, when I'm not so convinced that that's the case.

[Spider-Dan]

Not to be too particular, Spider, but actually Jonathan Ogden was at #4.  Baltimore had 2 1st round picks in '96 for whatever reason. 

My mistake; I saw that he was a BAL first-rounder in '96 and presumed that that meant he was their #1.

[Spider-Dan]

I contend simply the following:
Ray Lewis is not Dick Butkus, or Ray Nitschke, because Ray Nitschke and Dick Butkus were better than average in pass coverage and could shed blockers

Obviously it is difficult to compare across eras (it's a lot easier to be good in pass coverage when you can damn near tackle receivers before the ball arrives), so the simplest argument to make is the following...

When compared to their contemporaries (i.e. Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors):

D. Butkus: 9 seasons, 8 Pro Bowls, 5 First-Team All-Pro
J. Lambert: 11 seasons, 9 Pro Bowls, 6 First-Team All-Pro
M. Singletary: 12 seasons, 10 Pro Bowls, 7 First-Team All-Pro
R. Nitschke: 15 seasons, 1 Pro Bowl, 2 First-Team All-Pro

R. Lewis: 15 seasons, 12 Pro Bowls, 7 First-Team All-Pro

Two things spring to mind.  First, Lewis is certainly in the same ballpark as these guys, and second, if there is an odd man out, it's definitely not Lewis.

[fyo]

I know I'll catch flack for saying this... but the greats of yesteryear would get their butts kicked today. Everyone in the NFL is a lot better. The talent pool is bigger, the training process more optimized from high school through college and even, perhaps especially, in the NFL. And the players have the benefit of improved medicinals *cough*. All combine to yield bigger, stronger, faster, and BETTER players.

Comparisons across eras are not just difficult, they're completely worthless outside of giving people something to argue about.

[Phishfan]

But what if those guys were raised in the same environment. I don't think you can say they would definitely get their butt kicked.

[BigDaddyFin]

Obviously it is difficult to compare across eras (it's a lot easier to be good in pass coverage when you can damn near tackle receivers before the ball arrives), so the simplest argument to make is the following...

Two things spring to mind.  First, Lewis is certainly in the same ballpark as these guys, and second, if there is an odd man out, it's definitely not Lewis.

(I shortened it to save some space)

I'm still not sure I agree, but I understand what you're getting at and the point is well taken.

[fyo]

But what if those guys were raised in the same environment. I don't think you can say they would definitely get their butt kicked.

I'm not sure what you mean by "same environment".

If we take Dick Butkus and Ray Lewis... Butkus PEAKED before Ray Lewis was even born. I'm convinced Butkus would've gotten his ass kicked quite thoroughly had he been transplanted into Lewis' era (another concept that doesn't make sense).

In those 30 years between Butkus and Lewis, the game evolved. Players got stronger and faster. College became more competitive. Practice, workouts, PEDs, "supplements"... all contribute to a vastly different "environment".

[Phishfan]

Use the imagination. Have Butkus the same age as Ray Lewis. Butkus has been going through the same training, eating habits, etc. as any other modern athlete all his life. That is the scenario I am trying to imagine. At that point, do you still make your same argument that these guys couldn't hold their own?

[fyo]

Use the imagination. Have Butkus the same age as Ray Lewis. Butkus has been going through the same training, eating habits, etc. as any other modern athlete all his life. That is the scenario I am trying to imagine. At that point, do you still make your same argument that these guys couldn't hold their own?

At that point, my imagination has me holding my own

Seriously, this is the problem I have with all these cross-era comparisons. It's like comparing tennis players in the wooden rackets era with modern pros. Heck, even a great player like Sampras would get his ass kicked by the top players of the game today.

It would be much easier if there was "one thing", like style of play, that you could point to and say, well, they didn't pass as often back then or whatever. But it's not "one thing". It's everything. Players today have to perform at a much higher technical level, in addition to all the physical stuff. Playbooks are more advanced. Tactics in general are more advanced. And, of course, the rules are completely different if we stray far enough back.

Some people would argue that the way to do these comparisons would be to compare the players to their peers... i.e. how much better than their peers were they. (A simple way of doing that would be the pro bowl appearances cited by Spider-Dan above). I'm still not convinced that gives enough credit to modern players...

Don't get me wrong, though. I have tremendous respect for the great players from the early eras of football. I just think the comparisons are silly.

[Spider-Dan]

Seriously, this is the problem I have with all these cross-era comparisons. It's like comparing tennis players in the wooden rackets era with modern pros. Heck, even a great player like Sampras would get his ass kicked by the top players of the game today.

That's a really bad example to pick.  Federer has beaten all the top players of today, and he's been around long enough to lose to players from the Sampras/Agassi era.

Saying that Sampras would get his ass kicked today (when people he beat are still playing) is like saying that Hakeem Olajuwon would be a below-average center if he came up in in today's NBA, or that John Elway would have been a mediocre QB if drafted into today's NFL.  These are not players from a long-bypassed ancient era.