The Issues: The War in Iraq

[Dave Gray]

Only issues, no partisanship.

Run2Win started talking about Iraq in the McCain $300 million battery thread, and I wanted to talk about it, but I didn't want to derail that thread.

So, here it is, Run.



I do think that things will get worse in Iraq when we leave.  But, I think it will get worse whether that's in 6 months, 6 years, or 60 years.  I think that McCain's surge plan has helped with stability, but again, we can't surge forever, and when we leave, things will fall into chaos again.  The surge plan (and military action in the region in general) is only a temporary stall to the inevitable.  No matter when we leave, things will fall apart.  It's a type of feuding that Western culture just can't appreciate and no amount of instilling democracy will work.

We should've never invaded in the first place, a position I've had since day one (and against most of the people in the Democratic party.)  But none of that matters now -- we're there.  ...what to do?

It sucks that people will die and terrible things will happen, but again, I think it's going to happen either way.  I'd rather leave now, and save the American lives and money that it's causing to fund the war.

----

That's not to say that liberals want to see us fail.  I hope that even the most conservative people can give a little ground in understanding that liberals want what's best for the country as well.  I want the world to be a better place far more than I want to be right.  I hope that they can all live peacefully because of our intervention, but I just know that's not the case.  These groups have been feuding for thousands of years and will probably continue for hundreds if not thousands more.

I am not some hippy and I support military action, but only when it's a defined goal.  I think that the first war in Iraq was completely justified, for example.  We had a concrete goal, and we got to leave when it was accomplished.  The war on terror, like the war on drugs, is unwinnable in a traditional military sense.  You cannot fight an idea with guns.

This is why I support the idea of beginning withdrawal.  The mistake has already been made, so I'm past that, and I would supporting staying if I thought that we could fix it, but I don't.  More violence will ensue when we're gone, but it's a foregone conclusion at this point.

[Phishfan]

I think Dave and I are in exact agreement on this one. No matter how long we stay there is going to be fallout after we are gone.

[Fau Teixeira]

i think we should pull out tomorrow from iraq .. and if that country descends into a civil war, then so be it. let them sort it out among themselves and the winner gets a country to run

we should also close down many (not every.. but many) military bases on foreign soil, we should have a much larger homeland military presence. Why not close down 600 out of the 800+ bases

re-invest that money into education, social services, technological development, infrastructure and payind down the debt.

also we should cut off all foreign aid, there's no reason why we should continue to give handouts to every country on the planet

[Brian Fein]

wow, another political thread.  yeehaw!

[raptorsfan29]

I support the troops and i want them to win.

Thats all i am going to say on the subject.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Let's get them home.  We had no business invading Iraq in the first place. 

[simeon]

Most liberals do want us to lose the war, because they see it as Bush's war.
That aside just getting up and leaving would give Iran a golden opportunity to over take Iraq and strengthen there country. Terrorist are terrorist, they want to kill you no matter if we leave Iraq or not, it is their mission and goal to destroy you. I do agree no matter what when we do leave there will be issues in the middle east, that is why we need to help the prescient government to become strong. I give 100% to our troops and 100% for victory, but war is ugly, I have lost a friend over there he was blown up by an a bomb. I know he believe in the cause, and he was proud to serve our great nation.

[run_to_win]

Run2Win started talking about Iraq in the McCain $300 million battery thread...

No no no no no no....

I was replying to Tommy.

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=11075.msg116480#msg116480

[DolFan619]

  I'm kind of torn on this.  Being someone who was there when this whole thing started, I would like too see us finish the job we started, and come away with some success.  At the same time this war has been so badly managed, maybe we do need to pull out and focus our resources at home, and finish the fight in Afghanistan.  I don't know, I really don't.  Both sides have legit arguements.

[run_to_win]

I think you all make good points.

Who would mind another bloody civil war in the Middle East?  If that's what they want to do and have doing for hundreds/thousands of years then more power too them.  I wonder how long we could get away with playing the middle and selling arms to both sides?

Democracy might change the Middle East with peacy and prosperity.  It's probably a long shot.  No one had much faith in Japan turning around after WWII either.

Iran is a concern.  Without a strong Iraq to counter them, they now rule the region.  One of those unintended consequences...  Many believe it's only a matter of time before we'll have to act on Iran's nuclear program or fear the consequences of non-action.  Iraq would be a convenient staging area if that happens.

Terrorists will continue to come after us ... if not in Iraq then perhaps here.  Pullouts in Beirut and Somalia, as well as the lack of reaction to other attacks, allegedly emboldened them.  Will this pull out motivate them as well?  If we can pull out and leave the war over there that's fine.  If the war follows us home that's not so good.

[Dave Gray]

Most liberals do want us to lose the war, because they see it as Bush's war.

Do you really believe this?  I don't know ANYONE who wants us to lose a war and have Americans killed.

I don't give a crap which president makes decisions, I still want the decisions to turn out well for our country.  It's not fair for you to speak on behalf of liberals.  What you're saying just isn't true.  We want what's best for the country.

I hate what Bush has done, decision-wise, but he's still my president.  I am not hoping for his failure, just to make myself look good.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

I was going to respond to that line as well but I deleted my post. 

It was nothing offensive or anything but it basically just said what Dave said.  It also mentioned that its that kind of labeling and grossly incorrect stereotyping is what fuels polarization within the nation.  As if we already don't have enough "lines" to divide ourselves from one another.  I'm a "liberal" an American with liberal ideals and despite what BSmooth may think or tell you ( ) I served in the military.  I have dozens of "liberal" friends in the military and it is pretty offensive to say something like that. 

The U.S.'s progress comes waaaay before hating Bush on my list.  In fact that is why I "hate" Bush.  Its because I feel he has/is/will steer the country in the wrong direction.  But that is my view and as we all know there are many others who feel differently.  Impeach Bush for this war?  Sure.  Hope Americans get killed?  Fuck that  !

[Buddhagirl]

Most liberals do want us to lose the war, because they see it as Bush's war.

Do you really believe this? I don't want anyone to die. Period. I don't care who's war it is, I want our men and women home safe and sound. When it comes to that, I don't give a damn about Bush. I don't want anymore people coming home in body bags for a dumb war that is being fought for no reason.

[bsmooth]

Most liberals do want us to lose the war, because they see it as Bush's war.

I have yet to run into one yet, even the waaay out ones who has remotely suggested this. The people I know who are proudly Democrat and liberal, gave me hugs and cried when I deployed, and they cheered and cried when I came home. All the other shit such as "cut and run", "liberals want us to lose", etc., are just sound bites created by desk jockeys who are trying to gather their flock of sheep to keep them in line. It is pure political spin of the worst kind.

[run_to_win]

How else do we explain those who push so hard for a pull out while not even being willing to discuss the likely adverse consequences?  Short-sighted?