The Marlins have done it again!!!!

[MaineDolFan]

I applaud the people that support the teams.  I applaud Brian, I applaud my buddy Doug that has had Ray season tickets from day one and rarely miss a game.  Tampa's fan base is small however it's very loyal.  I expect it to grow after this season.

My entire beef is that no professional sports franchise should ever draw 600 people for a regular season game.  I'm not quite sure Brian quite gets the ramifications of that.  Minor league hockey teams in Texas don't dip to that level.

600 people.  Wow.  And this isn't a first, or a low, for the Marlins.

It really is too bad for the fan base that team does have.

[landlocked]

I think the "fire sale(s)" that ownership have hosted every time the Marlins win a title have caused the fanbase to distrust them.If I remember right,they were setting attendence records right up through the first World Series then uncle Wayne sold off every player that helped them win it.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

I think the "fire sale(s)" that ownership have hosted every time the Marlins win a title have caused the fanbase to distrust them.If I remember right,they were setting attendence records right up through the first World Series then uncle Wayne sold off every player that helped them win it.

And why did they have those fire sales in the first place??  Because fans didn't come out and support the team.  I'm going to gravedig Maine's quotes from another thread about how the Marlins fan base is different from, say, the Yankees or Red Sox.  Maine, this isn't a knock on you.  Rather, you said it better than I ever could. 

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=7569.0

Okay!  So stop complaining about "baseball" ripping out your heart.  It's not the Marlins fault that Florida doesn't have passion for baseball.

You've won two fucking rings?  That isn't talent enough for you?  Holy crap.  I take it back.  Want to know why I'm bitter?  South Florida sports fans have NO CLUE how good they have it.  But you are a walking contradiction.  "Give me a winning team" in the same breath as "the Marlins are only something to do on Saturday night when nothing else is happening."

You ADMITTED it.  Win or lose, you don't really care about baseball.  So be it.  But don't bitch and moan when MLB flips you the bird and moves.

Read your own post.

I'm bitter because people in South Florida will say that the game I love is flawed because of their own inactions.  Is this pointing a finger at YOU?  No.  But for someone like you or Dave (both now who have posted "why I hate baseball" posts) to talk about this as though it's a baseball issue and not a South Florida issue pisses me off.

Kansas City sucks.  And they out draw you.  Seattle sucks.  And they outdraw you.  The average temp at game time for Rangers games was 94 last year (and they suck) and they outdraw you.  Baltimore sucks, and they out draw you.  Common thread of these teams I'm spouting off?  No titles recently.  None.  Ever been to Texas Rangers park?  Dolphins Stadium is a walk in the park compared.  Yet those people go see the team.

And as far as "oh, you love baseball because you are a Sox fan.  They have passion up there."  I grew up in Oakland, California.  I didn't experience Fenway well into my life for the first time.  My one connection to the Sox was on the radio, or when they came to Oakland.  So we went to A's and Giants games.  They both sucked back then, by the way.

But then again, in the 70's - so did the Sox.

It's one thing if the Marlins owners pulled an LA Clipper on you.  Never built a good product and on purpose.  Just put out a team to tag along with the TV money, etc.  Or the Royals at this point, a team that hasn't tried to compete for years.  Hasn't even tried.  Marlins fans have had great talent to support and championship teams to root for.  And still nothing.

So why am I bitter?  The Marlins and Devil Rays (who out draw you...and suck) SHOULDN'T EXIST.  Never should have.  That's 40 players (plus minor league systems) that should have been in the talent pool for teams that are really trying.

That's why I'm bitter.

I applaud Wayne for what he did in '97.  South Florida battled their asses off for a team.  MLB stated it's fears that Miami isn't a baseball market.  Somehow, someway, they wound up with a franchise.

Wayne was promised the world.  The Marlins would play one, two seasons tops in Joe Robbie.  Fans would come out and support the team.  The state would assist with the stadium.

So what happens?  After the first two seasons the Marlins didn't draw enough to break even, and it went down hill from there.  He finally got fed up enough and stated plainly:

I will pull a New York Yankee and bring you a title.  In return I expect the wheels to be spinning on the new stadium and I expect season ticket sales to increase.

Neither happened.

So what is Wayne supposed to do?  What would you do?  Continue to shell out that money for a team that o one is coming to see?

And again - you are confusing the occasional sold out game with "the city supporting the team."  Baseball, Robbie seats 70,000.  In order for the Marlins to make a profit, they need to average 32,756 a year based on a payroll of 65 million a year.  To break even they need to average just over 30,000.

They haven't done it since year two.  The fans just lost interest.  In a start up team.  Don't people understand it takes a while for teams to find their footing?

1995:   23,950
1996:   21,565
1997:   29,190 under 30k for a world title year!!!
1998:   21,363 way to support those world champs!
1999:  17,118
2000:  15,041
2001:  15,765
2002:  10,038
2003:  16,089 another world series team
2004:  21,539 way to support that second ring!
2005:  22,872

I did mis-speak, though.  In 2005 there were two teams that the Marlins out drew:  Tampa Bay and Kansas City.

In all of MLB. 

For a team that has two rings in 15 years.

My entire point is this:  don't be mad at MLB or the Marlins over this.  Be mad at your community for not caring.  The Marlins were the "cool new thing" for two years and then fell into Hurricanes nothing-ness.

If I owned the Marlins I would rather have them just about anywhere BUT Florida.  If you need to draw 30,000 to break even - and you averaged 8,000 less than that - how much of a financial loss do you suppose that is?

Year after year after year.

[Tepop84]

Part of the problem is that there are just too damn many games on their schedule.

Yup, too many games, games are too long, they play the same team too many times w/ unbalanced schedule.

Baseball would be good if they just played 1 three game series (Friday-Saturday-Sunday) a week for 20 weeks.  60 games is more than enough a season. With only 3 games a week they could use a three man rotation to improve play.  Right now baseball is definitely quantity over quality.  But then why should they change when they make loads of money in attendance for 162 games a year. 

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Yup, too many games, games are too long, they play the same team too many times w/ unbalanced schedule.

Baseball would be good if they just played 1 three game series (Friday-Saturday-Sunday) a week for 20 weeks.  60 games is more than enough a season. With only 3 games a week they could use a three man rotation to improve play.  Right now baseball is definitely quantity over quality.  But then why should they change when they make loads of money in attendance for 162 games a year. 

If they cut the schedule down, then ticket prices would skyrocket.  No more $9 cheap seats. 

[MixLovesThemPhins]

who cares baseball is horrible, borin, get the marlins outta here, get the infield dirt off my football field and lets get on with life

[Philly Fin Fan]

There's no correlation.

I care about baseball a lot.  I've been to plenty of games this season.

A afternoon weekday game is out of the question.  I have a job, I have to work.  I'm not allowed to take a day off from work to go to a baseball game.  I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

This is seriously lame, and I wonder why they even have games in the afternoon.

Are you saying the fans of other teams which host mid week day games don't work? 

[landlocked]

No.Tommy,the fans did come out(did you even read the first part of my post?)the Marlins had great attendance until Wayne sold off the team the first time.This caused fans to say screw 'em and they haven't been back.I agree that the Marlins have great young talent and deserve the fans support,but I think the fans are afraid to get behind these guys because they think if they should win,they'll be gone the next year.And yes,I get pissed too at the northeast transplants that make home games for the Marlins(and Dolphins)home games for the other teams from up north.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

No.Tommy,the fans did come out(did you even read the first part of my post?)the Marlins had great attendance until Wayne sold off the team the first time.This caused fans to say screw 'em and they haven't been back.I agree that the Marlins have great young talent and deserve the fans support,but I think the fans are afraid to get behind these guys because they think if they should win,they'll be gone the next year.And yes,I get pissed too at the northeast transplants that make home games for the Marlins(and Dolphins)home games for the other teams from up north.

Wrong.  The fans did not come out consistently even before Wayne sold off the team.  Read Maine's post from the other thread.  Granted they had good attendance for the first two years, but I think what hurt them was the strike at the end of the 1994 season.  Fans were pretty pissed that there was no World Series, and attendance was down all over the league as a result. 

[Thundergod]

edit - of course now I'm going to get the history lesson about how the Marlins can't sell out a game after they win a championship and how every other team gets people to go to games during the day.  That really has nothing to do with what I just wrote.

[Brian Fein]

I'm being totally serious here...

Maine, I have a question for you.  How many people up there do you run into that are NOT Red Sox fans? 

In Florida, the fan base for baseball is so split...  I'd say the percentages were something like this:

Yankees fans: 22%
Red Sox fans: 18%
Mets fans: 15%
Marlins fans: 12%*
Cubs fans: 8%
Other teams: 25%

*- Marlins fans include those that still support the team, as well as those who are still jaded by past firesales.

This is no joke.  Of course there's no statistical data to back this up but I'd be quite surprised if the numbers were far off.

So, tell me what I need to do to make more people call themselves "Marlins fans"?  Do I need to buy people tickets and give them away for free?  Heh, guess what, I've tried that before - no takers.  Do I need to buy a Marlins hat for every kid in the state?  Tell me how I can do my part to make the Marlins more "acceptable," because I don't want my favorite team to go *POOF* and disappear just because other people come down and clog shit up.

[landlocked]

I just wish they would get rid of those stupid black uniforms(whose idea was that?Wear black when it is 90 degrees outside)and go back to the teal as I think it identifies with South Florida more.Maybe when the new stadium is finished people will come out,I doubt it though because of the location.

[StL FinFan]

From reading this thread, it seems like the reason people do not feel attached to the Marlins is because so many people in the area are from somewhere else originally.  I don't think it has a lot to do with winning or losing, as they still did not draw well when they were winning.

[MaineDolFan]

Maine, I have a question for you.  How many people up there do you run into that are NOT Red Sox fans? 

A ton.  I have a lot of fans check in on my show each weekend that support teams from the Yankees to the O's.  A ton of O's fans up here, actually.

You need to keep this in mind about New England and the sports teams that people here support.  The blackout rule used to cover 200 miles.  The Pats and Sox both sucked for quite a while and rarely would the teams be on TV within the blackout radius (that went clear to Bangor, Maine).  So people became followers of other teams for that reason, they saw other teams on TV more often in the 70's and 80's.

I think you are missing the entire point of this conversation.  I don't doubt that there are a ton of Sox fans, etc, in your neck of the woods.  That's not the point.

The point is that the Marlins are a professional baseball team that has drawn less than 700 people for a regular season game a few seasons in a row.  

I hear all these excuses - mid week this and that, it's too hot, there are too many games on the schedule (huh??) and none of that answers the question:

If Miami can't draw more than 700 people for a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL GAME does that city DESERVE a team?  Because the reality of the situation is this:

1:  It's a good team.
2:  EVERY team plays mid week games.
3:  EVERY team plays when it's hot out.
4:  The heat index was over 100 yesterday for the 'Phins.  They had a few more than 700 people in that stadium.  In other words...people WILL come out for a product that they enjoy.
5:  EVERY team plays the same amount of games.

I could grab on to something like 7,000.  That's embarrasing, but I could get it.  But 700?

It isn't about you as a supporter.  It's about the city of Miami, and southern Florida, time and time again screaming "we don't care about this team."

[Dave Gray]

If Miami can't draw more than 700 people for a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL GAME does that city DESERVE a team?

I don't understand how your question is relevant.  Do we deserve a team?  No.  Does anyone, though?

Baseball is a business, and it's up to the owners to decide if it's worth it to keep a franchise down here.  There are several reasons for why people don't go to games here.  We have a non-traditional layout.  We don't have the stadium in a centralized area with lots of people...we have to drive to it.  ...that's a big one.  There's lots of other forms of entertainment.  It's just a unique place.  ...and on top of that, people don't care.

But it's not for us to be shamed into going.  As a business, make a product that people want to see.  Figure it out...and if you can't do that to your satisfaction, pack up and go somewhere else.

It's not my job to like baseball.  It's their job to make me like it, just like any other product or service that I buy.