Marlins - attendance - MLB in Florida and a question:

[MaineDolFan]

The other two threads are all over the place.  This comes down to one simple question: does baseball have a future in South Florida.

So I ask in this way.  I am going to wave a magic wand and do the following:

1:  Create a Marlins stadium.  It's a baseball only specific stadium in a decent part of the city.  Baseball only is important, no bad seat in the house.  I get that Joe Robbie isn't a great place for baseball, this stadium will be much like Camden Yards.  In other words: baseball friendly.

2:  Retractable roof.  The roof closes when the heat index is over 88 degrees.  I concede it's not fun sitting in 100 degree heat with 100% humidity.  The hottest you'll ever be is 88.  Hotter than that and the roof closes and the air temp is 70-75.

3:  Mid week games are all moved to night games.

4:  Ticket prices will be in line with medium sized teams.  You get what you pay for.  Box seat behind home plate will run you more than bleachers, but won't drive you out of house and home.

5:  The team is exactly the same as right now, same players, same payroll, same record.

Does this team draw enough to create a loyal base in South Florida under the conditions in which I have layed out?  They aren't far fetched, they are reasonable.  Under these conditions would the team ever have a minus 600 attendance game?  Will they break 2,000,000 per season?

Discuss.

[Brian Fein]

I would hope so.  I can't say that these conditions laid out would make ME follow the team any more.  But I don't have an answer for you, since I'm apparently not the one with the problem.

The one exception I have with your discussion is that you're fixated on one single game out of a 162 game season which had terrible attendance.  Its not like the Marlins can't draw more than 600 people for any one game.  They regularly draw in the 20-30k range for weekend series.  Let's be fair in this discussion, please.

Now, the one thing you left out here is the biggest factor, IMO.  The stadium location.  Design the stadium however you want, make it the greatest stadium ever, but place the stadium in the middle of the hood in Little Havana with no parking structure and no surrounding roadway infrastructure, and you have an even bigger problem.  If you want to draw fans, put the stadium where the fans are and more fans will come.

The proposed stadium site is where the Orange Bowl was.  I have been to numerous Hurricanes' games and that location SUCKS.  Knowing the attendance problems the Marlins have now, how many people from north Broward and Palm Beach are going to drive 1 hour+ to get to a game.  Especially on a weeknight, after work, or when the kids have to be up for school the next day?

None.

They're catering to the latino population, expecting that "only hispanic people go to games."   While there's a large latino population and a lot of them enjoy baseball, this thinking is flawed, IMO.  The fact that you have to know Spanish to be able to get to the stadium is a huge turn-off for a lot of people (myself included).

I don't know what the answer is.  I don't think the team does either, because they seem to think that a new stadium suddenly means that all the Yankees fans will LOVE the Marlins.  Doubtful.  Maybe they think that all the local Cubans will flood the seats of the new stadium?  Also doubtful.

Seems to me like baseball is doomed in South Florida.  I should just stop following them now and cut my losses.

[MaineDolFan]

You're right, I am focused on that one game - and for a couple reasons.  It's happened at least twice that I know of.  So the question is this: is that a symptom of a deeper problem or merely a hiccup in an otherwise growing fan base?  I think it's fair to focus on this one game when overall attendance is as low as it is.

In other words - if that exact same game on 9/4/08 had been played at night versus day - would that attendance figure have been the same?

If you take away all of the issues - put the stadium in a better place, make it a better stadium, remove overheating fans issues, make night only games if they are mid week...is this a non issue?

If things were more comfortable, in general, would that area embrace the team a little more?

[Brian Fein]

In other words - if that exact same game on 9/4/08 had been played at night versus day - would that attendance figure have been the same?

No brainer - YES.  I can't say that it would have been a sell out but they'd have had ten times the amount of fans there, easily.

If you take away all of the issues - put the stadium in a better place, make it a better stadium, remove overheating fans issues, make night only games if they are mid week...is this a non issue?

Again, yes.  If you're only looking to eliminate 600-person attendance, then I don't see this being an issue.

If things were more comfortable, in general, would that area embrace the team a little more?

You made a jump that I can't confirm.  I don't know what you can do to convince people to support the team more.  I don't know what would make people want to go get Marlins logos tattoos and name their kids after Mike Jacobs.  This is the type of embrace I'd like to see.  I'd like to find "die hard" fans who never miss a game on TV, and know Chris Volstad's ERA off the top of their head and buy the Marlins baby blanket when they have kids.  This is not uncommon in Red Sox country.  But it will never happen in Florida.

I kinda point the finger at the team's marketing folks.  I get phone calls from the Panthers and Dolphins trying to sell me tickets.  I don't get phone calls from the Marlins.  Other teams have attractive ticket packages available if you buy a bunch of games up front, but the Marlins make it more sensible to buy single game tickets cause the packages suck.  They have post game concerts after Saturday night home games - all but 2 acts have been Latino artists.  Why?  Why don't they focus on trying to get asses in the seats?  Why don't they try to convince people that, hey, its a good time, and you can see guys like Manny Ramirez and Ryan Howard and Johan Santana when they come to town?  I think the entire marketing department needs to be fired and some big-name firm needs to come in and do the right thing.

[Dave Gray]

I can only speak for myself.  The reason I'm not hardcore into baseball, like I used to be is probably because of the economics.  That said, I still enjoy going to the game.  It's fun to hang out and watch -- have a hot dog and beer, and just enjoy getting out with your friends or family.

But, we don't have a "stop by" kind of stadium.  Currently, we have a stadium that's not located near anything else.  It's sorta in no-man's land.  I think that you could build a much bigger "impulse buy" crowd if you had it in downtown Ft. Lauderdale.  There are bars and clubs all around and a lot of people actually live and work in the heart of that city.

If you had a small, intimate stadium that was easy to access to the regular casual fan, I think you'd have much better, long-term success.

All these plans I see to build a new stadium way South, or near where the Orange Bowl is, is a complete disaster in my opinion.

[Brian Fein]

Want some more issues?

Greedy ownership.  There's land up the ass available in the Sawgrass (west Broward) area near the Bank Atlantic center.  But, of course, greedy-ass developers scooped it all up and now that the housing market sucks their projects have fallen flat.  They could easily drop a stadium nearby, instead of more luxury condos that won't sell, and it would be great for the Marlins!  There would be easy access in and out with the Sawgrass Expressway, and lots of restaurants and stuff in the surrounding area, not to mention having the other stadium nearby.  Its cetrally located to everyone from North Dade to West Palm Beach.  Its a great situation!

But the team management wants a gift of land and doesn't want to pay for their own stuff.  They want the city to donate land and that's why they want to stay in Dade county.

Seems to me like everything falls back on the front office.

[Dave Gray]

I don't think a stadium would work at the Sawgrass.  You need to put the stadium in a population center.  Unfortunately, the Orange Bowl site is a slum and people who live there damn sure aren't going to baseball games.  I think that Ft. Lauderdale is the perfect place.

[Brian Fein]

Problem is there's no empty space in fort lauderdale that's not also slum.  You can't put it downtown because the traffic there is congested as it is.  I agree the you'd want it in Broward county and in a "populated area."  But, there's more office buildings than you realize in the Sawgrass area (I work in one of them) and I have no problem going to Panther's games after work. 

Regardless, Broward county isn't buying the Marlins land any time soon.  I wish they'd just stop asking for handouts.

[Dave Gray]

I have no idea how they'd fund it, but Maine's question seemed to be a hypothetical one -- he did mention a magic wand.

If they put a stadium in downtown Ft. Lauderdale, they'd almost certainly have to redesign some infrastructure to account for the traffic spike -- new 95-ramps, tri-rail stations directly into the stadium, etc.

[Brian Fein]

I'd love it if they had a tri-rail that went to the stadium, that'd be awesome for sure.

I think there are a lot of things that could be helped with Maine's magic wand, I definitely think they'd improve attendance of the casual fan, but you still won't get fans to be as passionate about the Marlins as Red Sox fans or Yankees fans are passionate.

I think the Marlins themselves are to blame for marketing to a limited demographic and I think the pretentious attitude of South Florida in general is also to blame ("who takes public transportation, that's so ghetto?!" )

[Dave Gray]

You can't make fans be passionate.  That has to grow over a generation.  But you have to start somewhere.  The Marlins goal should be for us to be able to take our kids there and have that bonding experience...then, when they grow up, that experience will mean more.

One of my fondest memories of my Dad is going to the World Series with him.  He isn't a sports Dad and he's a lot older than most Dads with kids my age.  ...but that was a defining moment for me.  And when he's gone, that moment will stay with me.  And if I have children and I take them to a game, I'll pass that on.

That's loyalty.

That's what the Red Sox have -- generations of stories and hardship and celebration and memories.  ...and what I hope the Marlins fans will have in a generation.  But we have to grow to that point first.  And to do that, you have to make it accessible.

[Brian Fein]

I agree - that was my "long standing tradition" argument.  My brother and I used to go to games with my dad several times per month.  It was something I'll never forget.  But, we're ignoring that for the sake of this discussion.

Do you think it has anything to do with prices?  Let's see, Dave, you're a dad, and you have a 10-year old son and a 6 year old son.  You wanna go to the game...

Tickets: the cheapest seats in the house are $12 x3 = $36
Parking: $10
3 Hot Dogs: $15
3 Cokes: $12
2 Ice creams: $10

You just spent $83 to take your 2 kids to the game.  Granted you could bitch slap them when they ask for ice cream.  Do you think this is a factor, though?

[Fau Teixeira]

you could get the 4 for $40 deal the marlins do .. 4 tickets, 4 hot dogs, 4 cokes for 40 bucks

[Dave Gray]

I don't think price is that much of a driving factor.  $82 bucks for an evening that full, for 3 people is not THAT much.

I spend that much going out to dinner and drinks with my old lady.
So, no.  I don't think that's it.

I think we're missing the corporate crowd, too.  The local businesses who buy tickets and give them to their employees to stop by for a few innings after work.  ...that kind of thing.

There are nights on a whim that I'll go down to Ft. Lauderdale to go see some live music.   I would never do that for a Marlins game, as is.  It's too much of an ordeal to get down there and do it.  And there's no atmosphere.  Shrinking the size of the stadium would really help for that.

[Brian Fein]

you could get the 4 for $40 deal the marlins do .. 4 tickets, 4 hot dogs, 4 cokes for 40 bucks

I don't think this is still available this season.  I can't find it on their website anywhere.  They have this now:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/ticketing/group/all_you_can_eat.jsp?partnerId=120x240_ticketsspecific_FLA_ayce080108

edit - this is available thru ticketmaster:
For the CBS4 for $54 package, tickets must be purchased in multiples of 4. Fish Tank seats are $54, other sections are available for the offer at a different price. Included in the offer is 4 tickets, 4 Sodas/Waters, 4 Hot Dogs, and 2 programs, and it must be bought in multiples of 4. Vouchers for the food and drink will be included with your order