Fair Tax to the Rescue?

[Dphins4me]

Generally speaking, everyone that I buy brand new goods from is already a business, so no problem there.  I go form a new corporation for a couple hundred bucks, and I'm tax-free.

So you think.  What are you selling?  What service are you providing?  Proof of jobs? 

Read the books.

If incorporating yourself = you pay no taxes, I think "a few" is a drastic understatement.

A few in comparison to the millions of people who cheat on their taxes, illegal trade etc....

I already live in a building, so that works out just fine..

Do you live their alone?  Is the building licensed for a business? 

Unless you're saying that small businesses without a separate brick-and-mortar don't count as businesses?

  You are throwing crap up against the wall to see if it will stick.  Read the damn books, then come back here & tell us what your concerns still are. 

No system is perfect, however the Fair Tax is better than what we currently have..

Yes, but today, we have a sizable gov't organization dedicated to catching those who commit tax fraud.  You propose to do away with this organization.  It is inconceivable that this will reduce attempts to defraud the gov't of taxes.

As I have said.  There will always be fraud.   No system will stop it.  That sizeable Gov. org. is not doing a decent job, much less a good job,plus we are spending millions to just prepare our taxes.

You have yet to address this question.  What is the motivation of the seller to help you cheat on the purchase of an item?  How many would be willing to go to jail to save someone else some cash.  Even if you split the difference.  We are talking dollars, not thousands of dollars.

I'm not going to jail for a thousand dollars, much less 5.

[Spider-Dan]

So you think.  What are you selling?  What service are you providing?  Proof of jobs?

Uh, I'm not sure if you know this, but you can form a business today for any reason or no reason.  Many of my friends that work in the IT consultant industry have formed their own business (with a payroll of 1) specifically so that they can get paid corp-to-corp (where, surprise, taxes aren't taken out when you get paid!).

A few in comparison to the millions of people who cheat on their taxes, illegal trade etc....

Again, if your argument is that tax fraud is rampant, eliminating the IRS cannot be a serious suggestion.

Do you live their alone?  Is the building licensed for a business?

You don't need to live in a building "licensed for a business" now!  So unless you are saying that this new, "simple" tax code will also have wide-ranging changes to how businesses are defined...

You are throwing crap up against the wall to see if it will stick.  Read the damn books, then come back here & tell us what your concerns still are.

Why don't you read the books?  You're the one promoting this radical change, yet apparently you don't know a damn thing about the details.  The only answer you have is, "well it obviously won't work like that but read the books and they'll probably answer it."

If YOU are the one for this change, don't you think that YOU should have done your homework?

As I have said.  There will always be fraud.   No system will stop it.  That sizeable Gov. org. is not doing a decent job, much less a good job,plus we are spending millions to just prepare our taxes.

They are doing a significantly better job than NOTHING, which is what you propose as their replacement.

You have yet to address this question.  What is the motivation of the seller to help you cheat on the purchase of an item?

Setting aside for the moment that the organization that would police such transactions has been eliminated, where is the cheating?

I want to buy an item from you.  Business-to-business sales are untaxed.  I have formed a business in accordance with federal, state, and local laws.  I give you my valid business license number when I purchase the item.  You are no longer legally entitled to collect tax for this purchase.  Period.

This isn't the potential fraud part... it's the loophole that's built into the "fair tax" BY DESIGN!  The potential fraud part is (for example) all the people who simply elect not to collect tax because they know there is no IRS to breathe down your neck.

You can go buy a new TV from that guy for $500+$60 tax, or you can buy it from me for $520 and I pocket the difference.  Who's going to stop me?

[Phishfan]

Uh, I'm not sure if you know this, but you can form a business today for any reason or no reason.  Many of my friends that work in the IT consultant industry have formed their own business (with a payroll of 1) specifically so that they can get paid corp-to-corp (where, surprise, taxes aren't taken out when you get paid!).

You have to have some type of a business license to conduct business. They didn't do this strictly because of payment, they did it because legally they have to.

[Spider-Dan]

Your statement is inaccurate.  Many consultants/contractors (myself being one of them) do not have business licenses; I contract through a third-party company who pays me via W2.  However, for many consulting gigs (especially at the higher end), one has the option whether to receive payment via W2 or via corp-to-corp.

You are correct in stating that payment type is not the sole reason to incorporate oneself, but it is a significant benefit.

[Dphins4me]

Uh, I'm not sure if you know this, but you can form a business today for any reason or no reason.  Many of my friends that work in the IT consultant industry have formed their own business (with a payroll of 1) specifically so that they can get paid corp-to-corp (where, surprise, taxes aren't taken out when you get paid!).."

  Not an expert on how to start a business.  However, I'm sure things that concern you about this have already been addressed.

Again, if your argument is that tax fraud is rampant, eliminating the IRS cannot be a serious suggestion.

    Yeap.    All your concerns will most likely be addressed in one of the books.

Retail stores will still file tax reports.

You don't need to live in a building "licensed for a business" now!  So unless you are saying that this new, "simple" tax code will also have wide-ranging changes to how businesses are defined... .

   Unsure, but take the time to read the books.  They are not that large of books.

Why don't you read the books?  You're the one promoting this radical change, yet apparently you don't know a damn thing about the details.  The only answer you have is, "well it obviously won't work like that but read the books and they'll probably answer it."

  I have purchased & I have read the books. 

I just didn't write the book, so I cannot answer to wild scenarios, when the men that wrote then book & who much smarter than either of us have already thought of what you are concerned about.   I'm just making you aware of the tax so you can educate yourself on it & not depend on someone on a MB to answer your questions about it.

If you would take the time to educated yourself on the subject instead of this " Sky is falling " attitude with it them maybe your concerns can be answered.

A quick Google search gave me this link:

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq

If YOU are the one for this change, don't you think that YOU should have done your homework?."

  Have done my homework.   The current tax system does not work, so I'm opening my mind to other systems.  I'm not afraid of change.   I just know I cannot answer you questions to what I think would be to your satisfaction.  I'm not an expert, so I would rather not tell you something & tell you wrong by mistake. 

Get the info from the people who actually studied the tax system & came up with the plan.  This plan was not thought up by Billy Bob on the farm. 
 

I want to buy an item from you.  Business-to-business sales are untaxed.  I have formed a business in accordance with federal, state, and local laws.  I give you my valid business license number when I purchase the item.  You are no longer legally entitled to collect tax for this purchase.  Period.

So write the man who wrote the book & have him explain it to you, how this would work or not work.

This isn't the potential fraud part... it's the loophole that's built into the "fair tax" BY DESIGN!  The potential fraud part is (for example) all the people who simply elect not to collect tax because they know there is no IRS to breathe down your neck..

By Design?  WTF?

You can go buy a new TV from that guy for $500+$60 tax, or you can buy it from me for $520 and I pocket the difference.  Who's going to stop me?

  ~90% of all retail sales come from large retail stores.    Good luck getting that cashier to cut you a deal.

[Phishfan]

Your statement is inaccurate.  Many consultants/contractors (myself being one of them) do not have business licenses; I contract through a third-party company who pays me via W2.  However, for many consulting gigs (especially at the higher end), one has the option whether to receive payment via W2 or via corp-to-corp.

You are correct in stating that payment type is not the sole reason to incorporate oneself, but it is a significant benefit.

I was taking it that you meant self employed (which you are not describing). A person just cannot go out and run what would equate to a business without the licensing (even a lawn service).

[fyo]

Is it just me or do all the "read the books" comments make "Fair Tax" sound like a bit of a cult?

[Spider-Dan]

readthebooksreadthebooksreadt hebooks

So basically, after having already read the books, you still have no answer to any of my objections, but you take it on faith that they will not be a problem.

Sorry, that's not enough for me.  The idea is so drastically and glaringly broken that it screams trouble.  Any plan that seriously advocates the removal of the department that enforces tax compliance is almost necessarily fatally flawed.

[Dphins4me]

So basically, after having already read the books, you still have no answer to any of my objections, but you take it on faith that they will not be a problem.

Sorry, that's not enough for me.  The idea is so drastically and glaringly broken that it screams trouble.  Any plan that seriously advocates the removal of the department that enforces tax compliance is almost necessarily fatally flawed.

I'm saying educate yourself & not depend on someone else to educate you.  Its been about a year since I've read the book & I do not recall every little detail about it.   I liked what I read though.   

  Can I answer every question about the tax.  No.   I was not the originator of the tax plan, so without going back & looking up a specific question then I do not have the answer & frankly calming a chicken little reaction from a person on a MB is not high on my priority list.   Sitting here with two kids under the age of 7 I have little time or desire to do it.

Don't sit & wait for someone to educate you, this is why 30 sec soundbites work on elections.  People do not educate themselves..    The books are cheap.  Got mine for about 8 bucks of Amazon.   They also have a answer the critics questions.

Some people will always cheat.  No system will prevent it.   People like to cheat.  I'd say about 85% or more of the people filing tax returns today fudge a deduction or two.

My one question is.  Why are you so against reading the books?  This may be one of the greatest tax plans & could change the county, then should you read the book to see if it might be something you would want to support.   This is no different than Obama/McCain.  Some people want one some want the other.

The flaw I have with the current tax plan is it takes money a person could spend & help the economy.  We are also hit with so many hidden taxes that we do not actually know how much taxes we are paying.  With the fair tax you know how much you are being tax.  Nothing is hidden from you.

The Gov knows people pay no attention to what is taken out of their checks & some actually think when they get a refund that they did not pay tax.  It give the Gov the power.  Ask someone how much taxes they paid & they most likely will say " I didn't " I got a refund.

Here are the links to purchasing the book.  Heck call Neal Boortz & ask him.  He takes calls on his radio show everyday.

The original booK:
http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Book-Neal-Boortz/dp/0060875410

The rebuttal:
http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463

[Spider-Dan]

If you consider the complete lack of any tax enforcement arm of the government to be a "minor detail," then good luck to you.

You act as if this is a fresh, new idea; it is not.  I researched the "fair tax" years ago during the original thread, and you have provided no new information to the discussion.  Seems to me that a proponent of such a drastic and overwhelming change might be concerned about the potential problems with it, but I guess not.

[Dphins4me]

If you consider the complete lack of any tax enforcement arm of the government to be a "minor detail," then good luck to you.

  Ask the men who wrote the book.  Let them provide you with the answer, instead of voicing your concern here.

You act as if this is a fresh, new idea; it is not.  I researched the "fair tax" years ago during the original thread, and you have provided no new information to the discussion.  Seems to me that a proponent of such a drastic and overwhelming change might be concerned about the potential problems with it, but I guess not.

You researched it?  Did you read the book?   I'm not acting as if this is some fresh new idea.  Its a growing movement though & one that will have its day in the future.

Not trying to provide you with any new ideas.  Just telling you to read the book & educate yourself & not take what some people who might have something to lose write about it. 

This tax will hurt some people.  Namely the people who make money off the current tax system.  Why would they be for it, so of course they will put out info against it.

Also, some people are simply to afraid of change.  Are you one of them?

Also, you do realize that our current tax code is communist leaning?

[Spider-Dan]

Because sales taxes are the Proud Way of The American Patriot, while income taxes are the Insidious Tool of the Red Menace, right?

The days of winning arguments simply by calling the opposing position "communist" are long-dead.

As for your incessant chant of "read the book": no, I did not put money in Neal Boortz's pocket for doing me the favor of detailing a broken plan.  I read reviews and criticisms of his book (and the "fairtax" in general), which pointed out the myriad flaws free of charge.

Again, it's telling that you, a proponent of this plan, do not understand enough about it (after reading the book!) to be able to refute my claims, insisting that I should buy this book and rebut my own arguments.  Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.  My time and money are more valuable than to give them away to every nutjob who claims that he has The Next Great Solution... if I just buy his book.

[Dphins4me]

Because sales taxes are the Proud Way of The American Patriot, while income taxes are the Insidious Tool of the Red Menace, right?

The days of winning arguments simply by calling the opposing position "communist" are long-dead.

  Just saying its in the top 10 of the communist manifesto.

As for your incessant chant of "read the book": no, I did not put money in Neal Boortz's pocket for doing me the favor of detailing a broken plan.  I read reviews and criticisms of his book (and the "fairtax" in general), which pointed out the myriad flaws free of charge

So you let someone else give you your opinion.  Ok.  That fine.  Question on the person giving you your opinion.  Was this an unbiased opinion or someone who had something to lose by getting off the income tax?   Follow the money & you will find where the opinion comes from.

Again, it's telling that you, a proponent of this plan, do not understand enough about it (after reading the book!) to be able to refute my claims, insisting that I should buy this book and rebut my own arguments.  Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.  My time and money are more valuable than to give them away to every nutjob who claims that he has The Next Great Solution... if I just buy his book.

The proceeds were donated to charity, so Boortz did not pocket anything off the book.  So he is a nutjob?  Ok.  Is that your opinion or did someone give it to you?  Have you met him?  Sometimes I've listened to him & wondered.

Do you recall everything about a book you read a year ago?  Especially one on something as detailed at this?

Sure, I understand.  Some people will find a way to cheat.   The shock.

The world will implode.  Cats & dogs will be sleeping together.  Oh no.  The horror.

[Spider-Dan]

So you let someone else give you your opinion.  Ok.  That fine.  Question on the person giving you your opinion.  Was this an unbiased opinion or someone who had something to lose by getting off the income tax?   Follow the money & you will find where the opinion comes from.

Of course, the same logic does not apply to Mr. Boortz "giving you your opinion," and we must not follow the money as to who wishes to implement the "fair tax" system.

[fyo]

  Just saying its in the top 10 of the communist manifesto.

I want to say "wtf, there is no top 10 in the communist manifesto. It's a long, rambling, semi-coherent text."

However, it does (in part 2) include a list of 10 measures that "in most advanced countries [...] will be pretty generally applicable."

FYI, progressive taxation is actually number 2 on that list, not just "in the top 10"

While we're at it, could you detail why number 10 is bad? Clearly, it must be, since it's in the communist manifesto.

In case you don't feel like looking it up:

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Well, OK, I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that last part, but could you refute the first two, completely independent, parts please?