Why do I get the feeling (opinions on Obama)

[Dphins4me]

OK CF. You are as bad a dolfins4me now. We all know taxes are not collected just to give money back to the poor

  Try getting it correct.  I have never said the only reason taxes are collected is to give it to the poor, nor ever thought it..

How about stop projecting things upon me that you perceive to come from me.  Actually allow me to say it, before assigning it to me..

[Spider-Dan]

The "additional check claim" comes from a combination of math and common sense.  If someone is paying $zero net taxes (they get 100% refunded) then how can they get a tax break?

Where can I get a hilarious image that depicts Republicans' belief that the only tax one pays in this country is income tax?

[Dphins4me]

Where can I get a hilarious image that depicts Republicans' belief that the only tax one pays in this country is income tax?

Its the highest tax majority of us pay.  Yet we have nothing to show for it.

Not going to get into the 10K range with Gas, sales or any other tax.

[Spider-Dan]

But wait... the whole point is that people who "aren't even paying any taxes" are getting tax refunds.  That's insane!

Except that they do pay other taxes.  So it's perfectly sane for them to receive a refund.

[Dphins4me]

But wait... the whole point is that people who "aren't even paying any taxes" are getting tax refunds.  That's insane!

Except that they do pay other taxes.  So it's perfectly sane for them to receive a refund.

  If all taxes are considered, then they would be include on a tax form.  There not.

[run_to_win]

But wait... the whole point is that people who "aren't even paying any taxes" are getting tax refunds.  That's insane!

Except that they do pay other taxes.  So it's perfectly sane for them to receive a refund.

Just when I thought you can't get anymore desperate... 

When everyone is entitled to an income tax refund based on other taxes paid then get back to us. 

[Phishfan]

The "additional check claim" comes from a combination of math and common sense.  If someone is paying $zero net taxes (they get 100% refunded) then how can they get a tax break? 

The figure varies but 40% is about right: (link).

Thanks. Ironically through a bit of deeper digging I found that in 2005 over 3.5 million people who would get a tax increase under Obama's plan had non-paying tax returns that year.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in12ms.xls

[run_to_win]

Thanks. Ironically through a bit of deeper digging I found that in 2005 over 3.5 million people who would get a tax increase under Obama's plan had non-paying tax returns that year.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in12ms.xls

I looked at that but you'll have to spell it out for me. 

This sounds like a previous thread that I thought was debunked as a misunderstanding.

3.5 million people making over $250,000 doesn't sound right.

In fact, as this chart shows, only 2.245 million U.S. households, the top 1.9 percent, had income greater than $250,000 in 2007. (About 20 percent of households make more than $100,000.)

http://www.newsweek.com/id/155951
http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032008/hhinc/new06_000.htm

[Phishfan]

One difference is we are talking differnet years. That would make some difference. The other is we have different sources. Mine is from the IRS and yours cites the census. I would trus tthe IRS stats more when discussing incomes.

All returns, total- 134,372,678
Taxable returns, total- 90,593,081
Nontaxable returns, total- 43,779,597

This is a breakdown of the over 3.5M I mentioned

   $200,000 under $500,000- 2,732,229
   $500,000 under $1,000,000- 523,401
   $1,000,000 or more- 303,106


I think everyone would agree that any household showing over $1M in income and having a non-paying tax return is overboard. Now consider 303,106 of them existing.

[Spider-Dan]

Just when I thought you can't get anymore desperate... 

When everyone is entitled to an income tax refund based on other taxes paid then get back to us. 

Why would "everyone" be entitled to it?

Your entire argument is based around the faulty premise that there are somehow people who get more back in tax refund money than they pay in taxes.  One can only arrive at this conclusion if one ignores all the non-income-tax-related taxes that said people pay.

Unless you are seriously making the argument that it's "welfare" for people to have their taxes refunded by a different part of the gov't than the one they originally paid taxes to, you have no leg to stand on.

[run_to_win]

I'm not trying to be obtuse .... it just comes naturally.

One difference is we are talking differnet years. That would make some difference. The other is we have different sources. Mine is from the IRS and yours cites the census. I would trus tthe IRS stats more when discussing incomes.

All returns, total- 134,372,678
Taxable returns, total- 90,593,081
Nontaxable returns, total- 43,779,597

This is a breakdown of the over 3.5M I mentioned

   $200,000 under $500,000- 2,732,229
   $500,000 under $1,000,000- 523,401
   $1,000,000 or more- 303,106


I think everyone would agree that any household showing over $1M in income and having a non-paying tax return is overboard. Now consider 303,106 of them existing.

I see the "Nontaxable returns, total- 43,779,597" in cell B45, but I'm not seeing the breakdown by income.

I'm still having trouble accepting that there were 3,500,000 tax returns showing income of $250,000 or more in 2005, but only 2,245,000 households showing income of $250,000 or more in 2007.

[Phishfan]

^^^ Like I said we have differnet sources. Your source is from the Census, basically a poll that does not include everyone. My source is from the IRS. I still take more credibility in the IRS.

The breakdown is right above the total of non-taxable returns. Cells B42-B44 are the three incomes I highlighted for you.

[run_to_win]

total # returns
   $200,000 under $500,000   2,737,802 (B22)
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   524,506 (B23)
   $1,000,000 or more   303,817 (B24 through 28)

# of non-taxable returns
   $200,000 under $500,000   2,732,229 (B42)
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   523,401 (B43)
   $1,000,000 or more   303,106 (B44)


If you're interpreting this correctly then...
   $200,000 under $500,000   99.80% of all returns did not pay taxes (B42/B22)
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   99.79% of all returns did not pay taxes (B43/B23)
   $1,000,000 or more   99.77% of all returns did not pay taxes (B44/B24-28)


Again, that doesn't seem accurate.

[Phishfan]

total # returns
   $200,000 under $500,000   2,737,802
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   524,506
   $1,000,000 or more   303,817

# of non-taxable returns
   $200,000 under $500,000   2,732,229
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   523,401
   $1,000,000 or more   303,106


If you're interpreting this correctly then...
   $200,000 under $500,000   99.80% of all returns did not pay taxes
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   99.79% of all returns did not pay taxes
   $1,000,000 or more   99.77% of all returns did not pay taxes


Again, that doesn't seem accurate.

You are reading the table wrong. There is no breakdown of total returns.

Row 9 is all returns. Rows 10-28 is a breakdown of taxable returns with the sum in row 29. Rows 30-44 is a breakdown of non-taxable returns with the sum in row 45.

[run_to_win]

Adding rows 10 through 28 = row 9, the breakdown of total returns

Adding rows 30 through 44 = row 29, the breakdown of taxabe returns

Either that's a huge coincidence or there is no breakdown of NON-taxable returns.


My previous post should have read:
total # returns
   $200,000 under $500,000   2,737,802 (B22)
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   524,506 (B23)
   $1,000,000 or more   303,817 (B24 through 28)

# of non-taxable returns
   $200,000 under $500,000   2,732,229 (B42)
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   523,401 (B43)
   $1,000,000 or more   303,106 (B44)


  $200,000 under $500,000   99.80% of all returns did not pay taxes
   $500,000 under $1,000,000   99.79% of all returns did not pay taxes
   $1,000,000 or more   99.77% of all returns did not pay taxes



7,389 tax returns (out of 3,566,125) with an income of over $200,000 were non-taxable.  That's 1/5 of 1%.

For comparison,
47.9% of returns under $50,000 were non-taxable.
36.4% of returns under $100,000 were non-taxable.