Brady Quinn and Matt Ryan

[ochizon]

Who knows, maybe warm weather is what Pennington needed to stay healthy!

[MaineDolFan]

Pennington had averaged 10 games per season over the last 5 years and has had two major arm surgeries.  For him to have remained completely healthy through 13 games is, indeed, extremely lucky.

With rare exception this is the rule and not the exception with a large majority of players.  Every team that avoids injury to a star is lucky.  Every team that winds up with someone like Brees is lucky.  The Pats are lucky to have landed Moss, or Brady in the 6th round.  Luck is all around.  It's not specific to the Miami Dolphins.  I would argue Miami has had more bad than good luck the last 10 years.

Again, your whole point is...what?  That we should have drafted Ryan?  I'm still not sure what your point to this entire thread is.  You asked a question.  When someone answers you deflect and try to tell them why their opinion is wrong?

I'll say again, for me - drafting Jake Long made passing Ryan easier to swallow.  It wasn't that Miami didn't draft Quinn that pissed me off.  It was the player that they DID draft instead.

[Brian Fein]

Certainly seems to me like if we had picked Joe Thomas and passed on Quinn, no one would be complaining.  If we had picked Calvin Johnson and passed on Quinn, no one would be complaining.

The fact that we passed on Quinn and proceeded to REACH for a guy who was a late-1st on most draft boards is the problem.

Here's the thing about that...  Anyone who part-takes in fantasy football knows this:

You have two guys on the board you have targeted who are late-1st/early-2nd round guys.  You have a pick at 9 overall and then what, 35 overall?  You try to trade down out of the 9 spot and hope you still get your guy.  If there's no takers, get your reaching gloves out and take your higher-consensus guy anyway.  You know you won't get him if you wait till your next pick.

If Cam really wanted Ginn (after all he knew the kid's whole family), he probably figured that he wouldn't be able to get him at 35, and that the step down from Quinn to Beck wasn't worth risking leaving Ginn on the board until the second round.  So, you take Ginn, knowing full well that Quinn will go elsewhere and you can accept a minor downgrade to Beck in the 2nd round.

Turns out, later on, that Cam had Beck rated higher than Quinn.  This is not a point of discussion.  Its the coach's opinion.  Whether he's right or wrong is immaterial, and lies fully on his talent evaluation skills.

The difference between Beck and Ryan is that Jake Long was a viable #1 overall on most draft boards, and Ginn was a huge reach at #9.

[MaineDolFan]

The difference between Beck and Ryan is that Jake Long was a viable #1 overall on most draft boards, and Ginn was a huge reach at #9.

Exactly.

[Spider-Dan]

With rare exception this is the rule and not the exception with a large majority of players.  Every team that avoids injury to a star is lucky.

We are not talking about just avoiding injury to your QB.  We are talking about getting a full season out of a QB with a history of short seasons due to injury problems.  Surely you can agree that a QB with two major arm surgeries fits into this category?

You also completely failed to address the issue of Favre.  Without GB trading a "retired" future-HOF QB to NYJ, Pennington is not even on the market.  That is a textbook example of luck.

Again, your whole point is...what?  That we should have drafted Ryan?  I'm still not sure what your point to this entire thread is.  You asked a question.  When someone answers you deflect and try to tell them why their opinion is wrong?

How many times are you going to ask me what my "point" is?  It's already been asked and answered.

Drafting Quinn would have been a bad idea.   Any person that says otherwise should also believe that not drafting Ryan was a bad idea.  To date, AFAIK, not one person has said this.

Furthermore, I redirect you to the first post in this thread:

Why aren't all the people who bash Cameron/Mueller for passing on Brady Quinn not bashing Parcells for passing on Matt Ryan?

If you are not one of these people, why are you trying to answer a question that's not directed to you?  Nowhere in that sentence is Ted Ginn's name mentioned.  Ted Ginn has virtually nothing to do with the subject.

This is about passing on Quinn, not taking Ginn.

[Brian Fein]

Ted Ginn's name is mentioned because he's the reason people are pissed about passing on Quinn. 

Teams pass on guys every year.  Its nothing new.  The critical component you're leaving out is that people aren't up in arms about NOT drafting Quinn, but they ARE up in arms about drafting Ginn in his place.

I don't think you'll find anyone argue that they're upset about passing on Quinn WITHOUT mentioning Ted Ginn's name in the same sentence.

[Spider-Dan]

Brian,

With a 1-15 season, we could have had taken literally any player in the draft (Russell is the only one that even makes for an interesting argument) and people would have bitched about not taking Quinn.  This includes Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson (players who were long gone before we picked).

As I already said, the sole reason why people bitch about Quinn and don't bitch about Ryan:

MIA through Week 15 in 2007: 0-13
MIA through Week 15 in 2008: 8-5

Do you seriously believe that if we were sitting at 0-13 today and Ryan was performing like he has been, we would be calmly discussing how great of a pick J.Long was?

[dolfan13]

pennington put in a lot of work this offseason strengthening his body and mind, and it certainly shows. whatever moves the jets front office made just before the start of this season was simply to appease a very fickle fan base given that they are moving into a very expensive new facility next year.

cutting pennington and bringing in farve had little to do with on the field football and a whole lot to do with the for profit business behind the scenes.

[Brian Fein]

I don't disagree that things are rosey when you're winning.  However, people were bitching about passing on Quinn 5 minutes after Pick #10 hit the clock on draft day.  What does that have to do with wins and losses?  People were complaining about another botched draft pick during training camp and preseason. 

While I think that Pennington adds merit to the discussion, I firmly believe that this argument has nothing to do with wins and losses, and everything to do with Jake Long vs. Ted Ginn.

[MaineDolFan]

Drafting Quinn would have been a bad idea.   Any person that says otherwise should also believe that not drafting Ryan was a bad idea. 

If you are not one of these people, why are you trying to answer a question that's not directed to you?  Nowhere in that sentence is Ted Ginn's name mentioned.  Ted Ginn has virtually nothing to do with the subject.

Couple things here.

1 - I am one of the people that really wanted Quinn.

2 - Yes, Dan - Ginn and Quinn, in regards to this conversation, are linked.  After all...Ginn is the player that MIAMI TOOK when they could have had Quinn.

3 - When did you become a scout that knows football in and out?  "Drafting Quinn would have been a bad idea."  Really?  That, sir, is your opinion.  Not fact.  That is your subjective opinion.  I say drafting GINN in the spot where they could have upgraded their QB position by taking QUINN was a bad idea.  And, again, subjective opinion.  But I am sure not presenting that as the end all "this IS the way it is" way.

I keep asking your point because, believe it or not, you haven't really stated it.  You're dancing around it, tossing out your opinion as fact and attempting to surpress others, but not stating what the point is.  Case in point TELLING people what they should think "if you thought this, you need to think that."  Why?  Because YOU said so? 

One more time...Quinn, in my opinion, would have been a better draft selection last year than Ginn was.

Ryan, this past year, was NOT a better selection than Long.

Which is exactly why my opinion stays the same.  I still say Quinn, under the right conditions, has the abilities to be a good QB in this league.  And last time I checked the NFL is FULL of horrible QB play. 

But that's just me. 

[MaineDolFan]

Do you seriously believe that if we were sitting at 0-13 today and Ryan was performing like he has been, we would be calmly discussing how great of a pick J.Long was?

Do you seriously think if Miami were a legit 0-13 team Matt Ryan would help one hell of a bit?  That stance goes both ways.  Ryan is also playing with a RB that seems to go off for 150  and three each week and has very talented WR play (in addition to a great line).

Am I to really believe Matt Ryan under center for Miami last year would be this effective?  Please.  Dan Marino 1984 last year would have spent the first half of the year on his ass and the 2nd on the IR.

[Spider-Dan]

Couple things here.

1 - I am one of the people that really wanted Quinn.

Please make up your mind.

You just said, "It wasn't that Miami didn't draft Quinn that pissed me off.  It was the player that they DID draft instead."  Either you are one of the people who were upset because we passed on Quinn, or you aren't.  If you are, then it doesn't matter who we drafted (picking anyone else would still be passing on Quinn).  Otherwise, the question is not directed to you.

2 - Yes, Dan - Ginn and Quinn, in regards to this conversation, are linked.  After all...Ginn is the player that MIAMI TOOK when they could have had Quinn.

"Miami should have drafted Quinn" and "Miami should have drafted someone other than Ginn" are completely independent statements.  My original question is directed towards people who believe the former (a subset of whom happen to believe the latter as well).

3 - When did you become a scout that knows football in and out?

I believe I graduated from Scouting School on the same day as every other poster to this forum, yourself included.

"Drafting Quinn would have been a bad idea."  Really?  That, sir, is your opinion.  Not fact.  That is your subjective opinion.

Um, I never said it was fact.  And I was under the impression that it's pretty well established that most of the posts on this forum are opinion.  Do I really need to insert a giant THIS POST CONTAINS THE OPINIONS OF THE AUTHOR disclaimer before I click Post?

I keep asking your point because, believe it or not, you haven't really stated it.

How many more times do I have to say it?

As to what my point is:

1) Quinn was not a good pick at #9  (regardless of who we got instead)
2) Quinn has done nothing to indicate that MIA was wrong to pass on him
3) Any person that insists that we should have picked Quinn should logically also insist that we should have picked Ryan

You already replied to this and said that you "didn't disagree with any of it".  So why are you still asking what my point is?

Do you seriously think if Miami were a legit 0-13 team Matt Ryan would help one hell of a bit?

He has greatly helped the Falcons, who were pretty comparable to MIA in talent last year.

Am I to really believe Matt Ryan under center for Miami last year would be this effective?

Am I really to believe that Brady Quinn would have won any more games than John Beck did?

[Spider-Dan]

Furthermore:

If the outrage is really about taking Ginn (and not about passing on Quinn), why aren't people saying we should have taken Patrick Willis?  At least he's doing something in this league.

[dolfan13]

the sentiment at the time was that people wanted offense. this is exactly the thinking by a non-football coach searching committee that led to the hiring of an "offensive" minded coach in cam camoron.

for various reasons, the cam/mueller regime locked themselves into selecting an offensive skill player. it is quite telling that after ginn, 11 of 12 drafted players were on the defensive side of things.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

The fact that we passed on Quinn and proceeded to REACH for a guy who was a late-1st on most draft boards is the problem.

Not only did we reach for a guy, we reached for a guy at a position we didn't really have a need for at the time.  We had so many other pressing needs, one of which Quinn would've filled. 

Not to mention that when you're coming off a 6-10 season, you don't draft a kick returner in the first round.