Why I hate religion!

[StL FinFan]

and being infinitely loving he even loves osama bin laden, hitler and charles manson .. and should any of them ask or have asked for forgiveness from god .. they will be forgiven for any and all sins they've committed. and are right now in heaven playing badminton with jesus

Yes, but only if they are truly sorry for their transgressions.

[Dave Gray]

^^

Yet I end up in hell.  What a gyp.

[StL FinFan]

^^

Yet I end up in hell.  What a gyp.

There is no hell.

[crazy_scar_man]

I used to think God was a concept used to keep the masses in line... He was for those dummies not me.

Then miracles, outside the power of humankind, happened and I was forced to the conclusion a power greater than myself was at work.

[Sunstroke]

and being infinitely loving he even loves osama bin laden, hitler and charles manson .. and should any of them ask or have asked for forgiveness from god .. they will be forgiven for any and all sins they've committed. and are right now in heaven playing badminton with jesus

I'd have guessed lawn bowling, but I bet the J-man whacks a mean shuttlecock as well.

If anything's a contradiction in terms, it's an atheist trying to explain how good exists without a God. But it is fun to watch them try... 

"Smarmy" is how my mother would describe your tone in that last sentence...and it isn't a flattering term.

I can physically demonstrate a human being doing good. Hell (oops), I actually physically demonstrated that exact thing myself today. You cannot physically demonstrate ANYTHING about god. Zero, zip, zilch, nada.  You can show me shrines built to his honor, and you can show me zealots who will pound their chest and say "he exists, I know it!" ...but in the end, he exists only in the imaginations of man, like zombies and wanting to win the lotto. You can point to fluke things and say "that's good, so hallelujiah, it must be god," But you cannot prove anything. Bottom line...when you can hug your faith tightly to your chest...you can call it faith, or god's touch, or nuclear tapioca, but it's really just your own arms that you're feeling.

There, for the grace of myself, go I...

[JVides]

And I will concede in some cases, that faith does help things.  That's why I say NET negative.  I think that faith also causes much, much damage to our society and our world, moreso than it helps.

Let's look at some of the 10 commandments, and how these have been incorporated into our lives (for the world's betterment)

You shall not make for yourself an idol:  Humility is a good thing, no?
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy: Weekends rock.  I'm just sayin'.
Honor your father and mother: Respect for your elders is something I fully endorse.
You shall not kill Pretty much a universal law of man, right? 
You shall not commit adultery Encouraging family is good for society; I don't think anyone can argue against that with any authority.
You shall not steal  Another good law...
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor  Laws against that, too...
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor  Don't rack up a massive credit card bill trying to keep up with the Joneses.  Fiscal responsibility preached in the bible!

Many of our laws are based on religious tomes, meaning that our society's laws are based in faith.  I can't say that faith is a "net negative" as law and order, and the stability inherent to these, are the reason we've evolved and progressed so much in the last 1200 - 1500 years.

[Dave Gray]

I don't attribute any of these rules to faith, though.  (And I think your interpretation of some of those commandments is a bit off.)

[SCFinfan]

I can physically demonstrate a human being doing good. Hell (oops), I actually physically demonstrated that exact thing myself today. You cannot physically demonstrate ANYTHING about god. Zero, zip, zilch, nada.  You can show me shrines built to his honor, and you can show me zealots who will pound their chest and say "he exists, I know it!" ...but in the end, he exists only in the imaginations of man, like zombies and wanting to win the lotto. You can point to fluke things and say "that's good, so hallelujiah, it must be god," But you cannot prove anything. Bottom line...when you can hug your faith tightly to your chest...you can call it faith, or god's touch, or nuclear tapioca, but it's really just your own arms that you're feeling.

There, for the grace of myself, go I...

You should be the last person on this board to lecture me on getting a more charitable attitude in my writings. But then again, you're old enough to where you probably have forgotten how utterly nasty and absurd your comments often are (towards anything I write).

Nowhere in this thread did I point to any "fluke thing" and call it a miracle. Nowhere did I hug my faith tightly to my chest without giving my reason for belief in God (which is the moral argument, which is as old as Socrates). Nowhere did I merely pound my chest and exclaim my belief. That's Dave's (and your) job. I kid you not. Let's look at some of y'all's replies in this thread:

God, Devil...two sides of the same fictional character.

Man is responsible for the good in the world, and man is responsible for the bad. Period.

This is why faith sucks.

If you really want to help them -- help them.  Sitting there with your hands clasped talking to your imaginary friend about them isn't going to amount to a hill of beans.

People would definitely argue that.  I would at least.

Good doesn't come from God.  God is made up.

Beautiful statements of faith all, but about as well-reasoned as my flatulence. No explanation of these propositions is given, just the bald statements themselves. Give me a break, if you're gonna make a statement this brazen... give me reason to believe it! (at least Dave tries, and fails, sometimes, but you commit this intellectual sin all day without ever explaining yourself.)

The fact of the matter is that none of you have ever explained why you believe in goodness without your belief in God. SpiderDan tries, but the best he can come up with is calling God arbitrary. The rest of you don't even get that far. That is probably the best strategy, because the argument and evidence is totally against you there.

If you view faith as a net negative, then I would suggest the cure for what ails you is to convert to Christianity. There's less faith required there than in any form of atheism on the market today.

[SCFinfan]

^^

Yet I end up in hell.  What a gyp.

Give me a break. You don't want forgiveness.

[Dave Gray]

^^

I'm saving it for a deathbed confession.

(Seriously though, don't be a prick about it.  We're having a normal discussion.  Don't turn it nasty.)

[JVides]

I don't attribute any of these rules to faith, though.  (And I think your interpretation of some of those commandments is a bit off.)

To not attribute the law of man to the laws passed down from heaven (as the story goes) is to completely ignore history.  Our laws, codes, and ethics are all heavily influenced, if not dominated, by religious faith.  As for your second comment, I was trying to keep it light.

[Dave Gray]

I believe that many of those laws are inherent to mankind.  Non-theists follow them as well.  I just think that religion is stealing the credit.

[SCFinfan]

^^

I'm saving it for a deathbed confession.

(Seriously though, don't be a prick about it.  We're having a normal discussion.  Don't turn it nasty.)

You're right. I'll tone down a little.

Seriously though, have you ever wanted forgiveness for disbelief? If you have, why haven't you repented of it and turned from it?

I believe that many of those laws are inherent to mankind.  Non-theists follow them as well.  I just think that religion is stealing the credit.

This is what I'm talking about Dave. Why do you believe religion is stealing the credit? Can you muster any scientific evidence to show that this is so?

[Phishfan]

The fact of the matter is that none of you have ever explained why you believe in goodness without your belief in God. SpiderDan tries, but the best he can come up with is calling God arbitrary. The rest of you don't even get that far. That is probably the best strategy, because the argument and evidence is totally against you there.

I would love to hear your evidence. The last time you tried wasn't very successful as far as we are concerned either.

[SCFinfan]

I would love to hear your evidence. The last time you tried wasn't very successful as far as we are concerned either.

Ok: simply put,

1. Objective morality cannot exist without God, because no human is capable of promulgating an ad hoc objective morality. (Objective morality is not the same as universal morality, where everyone on earth agrees on something being wrong or right. Instead, objective morality means those morals which if they were transgressed, would result in a real, actual wrong or sin, rather than just being merely wrong in the opinion of a group of men.)

2. But objective morality exists. For example, it is wrong to rape a child, even if the society or culture you're in disagrees.

3. Therefore, God exists.

I look forward to your response, Phish. I bet ya can't beat me.