Why I hate religion!

[Tenshot13]

Do you hear them Hoodie?

[Sunstroke]

I'm a cricket now?  I would have guessed rhinoceros beetle...

[SportsChick]

Okay, that photo is just plain creepy.... ick....

[SCFinfan]

Sounds like a theology lesson to me. I don't have to beat you because I don't think you were even on topic. You are now talking morality which was not what we were discussing (bet you didn't think anyone would catch on). We were discussing the existence of good which is different than morality.

Figures. I offer a proof, and you don't even attempt to challenge it.

[SCFinfan]

I have to chime in her on something that really ticks me off and it has to do with SCFan stating that his words are proof God exists and dismissing God's physical absence as proof that he doesn't.

I accused Dave of arrogance in a previous post and need to do the same thing here.

SCFan - no matter how you spin it, and YES -- it is SPIN -- nothing on this planet PROVES that God exists.  Nothing.  Not morality, nothing.  Zip, zlich, zero, nada. 

This statement is complete bullshit:

1. Objective morality cannot exist without God, because no human is capable of promulgating an ad hoc objective morality. (Objective morality is not the same as universal morality, where everyone on earth agrees on something being wrong or right. Instead, objective morality means those morals which if they were transgressed, would result in a real, actual wrong or sin, rather than just being merely wrong in the opinion of a group of men.)

2. But objective morality exists. For example, it is wrong to rape a child, even if the society or culture you're in disagrees.

3. Therefore, God exists.

First of all - there are many societies past and present that permit children to be placed into a marriage situation against their will.  Those children are then forced to consumate the marriage - again, against their will, which by definition is RAPE.  So let's toss #2 out the window, shall we?

"Right and wrong" has been passed down from society to society and has been learned and taught like a math lesson.  Studies of early man show that even the most primal of our species understood one simple logic:  work together and succeed, work alone and die.  This was the first stepping stone or building block to a society that contains "objective morality."  It had nothing to do with love for a fellow man.  At the end of the day the laws of society are kept in place out of fear and not a glowing interest of being a good person. 

It is certainly not "proof" that any God exists, that is a fairly laughable and ridiculous statement.

Furthemore - "objective morality" is defined by each society as something completely and utterly different.  Take a stroll into the Congo and tell me that those men are living under those same codes as the people walking down Main Street in your home town? 

There is not one shred of physical proof that God exists, it is either a faith that you believe in or you don't.  As CF said, and as stated in the Bible, free will allows you to either search for God or not.  If you have found him on your personal journey that's great.  But please don't try to spin your way into someone else's mind with your hyperbole.  Faith, in the religious context, is much like love.  You either feel it in your being or you don't.  Stating that your words are "proof" that God exists, and therefore trying to suppress the opinions or others, is mere rhetoric and can be taken as fairly insulting.

Your statement of "Therefore, God exists" is nothing more than pure opinion.  Coupling that with "betcha can't beat me" is not needed.

I think everyone needs to reads Dave's posts very closely.  He isn't judging you, do not judge him.  He is not forcing his beliefs in you, do not force your own on him.

Simply and patently untrue. There are something like 4 dozen proofs for Gods existence which are logically valid. While it's possible to disbelieve despite these proofs, it is simply impossible to say that there is no proof for the existence of God without being ignorant of the last half-century of philosophy. The moral argument, which I just put forward is, I think, the strongest one.

[Sunstroke]

If that's the strongest argument there is for God's existence, then you literally have nothing at all. What are you going to use for your backup argument...the lyrics to "Don't Worry, Be Happy?"  I mean, if we're being happy, then God must exist...because God made happiness.

 

[MaineDolFan]

Simply and patently untrue. There are something like 4 dozen proofs for Gods existence which are logically valid. While it's possible to disbelieve despite these proofs, it is simply impossible to say that there is no proof for the existence of God without being ignorant of the last half-century of philosophy. The moral argument, which I just put forward is, I think, the strongest one.

If that is your strongest argument it's the weakest one I think I have ever heard.  I'll say the same thing here that I said to you in PM:

Everything - EVERYTHING - that you are stating is based upon your personal opinion and is highly subjective.  It's based on your faith and personal beliefs and not objective facts.  There is not one shred of objective, can never be disputed, cold hard evidence that a higher power is watching out over us.  You can find things that YOU think prove that existence but that is exactly that.  What YOU think.

Again - what you consider evil actions are not considered evil through out the world.  There is not one action in this world that is considered the same way through out this land, one governing law that binds us all together.  Murder, rape, child molestation are all evils within our society and most free thinking parts of the world.  Those things are mere actions and things to survive in other parts of the world - parts that are living and breathing right now.  So sorry - your "strongest argument" isn't all that strong pal.

I think you need to face facts on this - you are trying to turn something subjective into something objective and it can't be done.  And you're doing it based on your personal feelings and beliefs.

[Buddhagirl]

The only thing that I can offer this highly amusing discussion is this:

The last time I had an imaginery friend / was talking to peeps that no one else could see or hear, I was Baker Acted. Sure it was due to drug induced psychosis from a prescription, but who's to say that all the "believers" aren't having the same thing?

[MaineDolFan]

^^

That's the type of stance that I take personal offense to.  It's the "I am not smart enough to think for myself therefore I must believe in a higher power to keep me in check."  I must be on drugs and mid-psychosis due to my beliefs and faiths? 

I think that same stance could be taken towards non-believers.  To actually believe we're all wondering around "just because" and things happen "just because" is a little ignorant, in my opinion.

I personally base most of my beliefs in the Tao Te Ching, which is an amazing work.  A lot of the bible "borrowed" a lot of it.  And I think that to belittle someone due to their beliefs is simply not right.

It's one thing to make your stance on why you don't believe, another to make fun of someone that doesn't hold that same belief.

But that's just me.

[CF DolFan]

^^

That's the type of stance that I take personal offense to.  It's the "I am not smart enough to think for myself therefore I must believe in a higher power to keep me in check."  I must be on drugs and mid-psychosis due to my beliefs and faiths? 

I think that same stance could be taken towards non-believers.  To actually believe we're all wondering around "just because" and things happen "just because" is a little ignorant, in my opinion.

I personally base most of my beliefs in the Tao Te Ching, which is an amazing work.  A lot of the bible "borrowed" a lot of it.  And I think that to belittle someone due to their beliefs is simply not right.

It's one thing to make your stance on why you don't believe, another to make fun of someone that doesn't hold that same belief.

But that's just me.

Borrowed is certainly not the appropriate word as Old testement documents that are similar were written much, much earlier than the Tao Te Ching. The New Testament similarities have just as many polar opposites.  Are some ideas similar? Absolutely including the coming of one who will bring peace as well things like do good to those who do wrong to you but many other areas are in direct contrast.

Sorry for derailing but I think "borrowing" paints a completely false picture. 

[Buddhagirl]

^^

That's the type of stance that I take personal offense to.  It's the "I am not smart enough to think for myself therefore I must believe in a higher power to keep me in check."  I must be on drugs and mid-psychosis due to my beliefs and faiths? 

I think that same stance could be taken towards non-believers.  To actually believe we're all wondering around "just because" and things happen "just because" is a little ignorant, in my opinion.

I personally base most of my beliefs in the Tao Te Ching, which is an amazing work.  A lot of the bible "borrowed" a lot of it.  And I think that to belittle someone due to their beliefs is simply not right.

It's one thing to make your stance on why you don't believe, another to make fun of someone that doesn't hold that same belief.

But that's just me.

I'm not making fun. I'm making a point. Who's to say that the noise I was hearing in my head is any different than those that think they speak with "god"? What is the difference between mental illness and believing in God? When people say the devil made them do it, people assume they're crazy. How is that different from god making you do it?

Where is the line drawn? Do we only make the distinction that god is ok since more people believe in it? Would the voices and noises I heard in my head be acceptable if I could talk more people into following them?

I also find it laughable that while you take personal offense, you choose to call non believers ignorant.

Hello pot. Meet kettle.

[MaineDolFan]

I also find it laughable that while you take personal offense, you choose to call non believers ignorant.

Hello pot. Meet kettle.

At least I didn't call you crazy or of lower intelligence.

[Buddhagirl]

At least I didn't call you crazy or of lower intelligence.

Nor did I. I haven't mentioned intelligence at anytime. Nor have I called anyone crazy. I'm just asking what the difference is.

[MaineDolFan]

Borrowed is certainly not the appropriate word as Old testement documents that are similar were written much, much earlier than the Tao Te Ching.  

Not nessasarrily true.  Most scholars agree that the Old Testament was compiled between the 12th and the 2nd century BC.  The Tao was written in the 6th century BC.  For every scholar that believes the OT was written before you'll find 10 that believe the Tao came first.

I personally believe that portions of both old and new were highly influenced by Lao Tzu.  And that is not a bad thing at all.

“The truth is not always beautiful, nor beautiful words the truth.”- LAO TZU      

[Brian Fein]

I have been biting my tongue on this but I feel the need to interject.

I don't consider myself a religious person.  I am a man of science - I typically don't believe in things that can't be proven.  However, I think its important to keep an eye open to these things.

I find that speaking of "imaginary friends" and calling religious believers "mentally ill" as over the line.  If people want to practice their faith and believe in a higher power, so be it.  Maybe it helps to keep them centered.  Maybe it helps to give them a purpose to life.  Who are you to belittle them for doing so?

Belief is a choice, its not an illness.  You don't choose to be mentally ill, but you can choose to believe in God.  Let's be realistic, mental illness is OVER THE LINE in this context.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't crazy mentally ill people that cite God (or Satan) as their reason for acting in some cases, but those aren't the people I'm referring to.  A guy who goes to church every Sunday, a guy who prays to a God of his choosing - what makes him any more "crazy" than you?  

I think some of the "I don't believe in God" people have taken a self-righteous stance and can't fathom that other people might have different beliefs.  I think its important to take a "to each his own" stance here, and stop trying to convince each other that there is or isn't a God.