Why I hate religion!

[Dave Gray]

I find that speaking of "imaginary friends" and calling religious believers "mentally ill" as over the line.  If people want to practice their faith and believe in a higher power, so be it.  Maybe it helps to keep them centered.  Maybe it helps to give them a purpose to life.  Who are you to belittle them for doing so?

Belief is a choice, its not an illness.  You don't choose to be mentally ill, but you can choose to believe in God.  Let's be realistic, mental illness is OVER THE LINE in this context.

No it's not.

If someone can believe in God and their view is protected, why can't I believe that the person is mentally ill and my view be protected?

I'm not saying it to be a dick.  It's my honest opinion about the situation.  I don't see how my honest opinion crosses any line.  That's my reasoning for people believing in things that aren't there.  I think my mom has that illness.  It's not like I'm saying they should all be locked up.

But I am saying that I think that there's a mental block that making them unable to logically look at the situation.  If you can step back and rationally look at religion, you wouldn't be religious.  You have to have this "faith" element.

[CF DolFan]

Not necessarily true. most scholars agree that the Old Testament was compiled between the 12th and the 2nd century BC. the Tao was written in the 6th century BC.  For every scholar that believes the OT was written before you'll find 10 that believe the Tao came first.

I personally believe that portions of both old and new were highly influenced by Lao Tzu.  And that is not a bad thing at all.

“The truth is not always beautiful, nor beautiful words the truth.”- LAO TZU      

Ok again I have to say you are full of it.  Comparing 1200 BC to 350 BC is literally world's apart and that's even "if" Lao Tzu actually lived.  No one is even sure if that was a real person, scholars included.  I have no idea where you got 6th century BC.  Also, I can guarantee you that you can't find 10:1 scholars that say it came first.  That's just lunacy.  In fact the oldest reliable writings and references of are from 1BC ... much later than Biblical manuscripts.

 

[Dave Gray]

I would just like to be clear --

I like AND respect many, many religious people.  I think they are smart and funny and enjoyable.

I am not trying to diminish their place in society, in my life, or as people.  I do, however, think that their (what I would consider) baseless belief system is due to a mental block or mental trauma.  It's easiest to convert the weak, the poor, the uneducated, the sick, the damaged, the vulnerable, the addicted, those in prison, etc.  -- Those groups are highly religious, probably because of desperation and trauma.

[MaineDolFan]

Ok again I have to say you are full of it.  Comparing 1200 BC to 350 BC is literally world's apart and that's even "if" Lao Tzu actually lived. 

Ah!  If Lao Tzu actually lived!  Jesus Christ lived, right?  Although you never shook his hand, bought him a cup of coffee or asked him over for dinner.  You just know that to be true.  

And, yet, so quick to state your doubts about Lao Tzu when there is roughly the same amount of documentation that supports the guy's existence as there is Jesus.  Weird how you can be so quick to jump to that conclusion while holding on to another.

I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass, no matter how much you want to rush in and claim the OT is the living / breathing / stand alone / nothing was taken for it but from it stance.  It's based on years of undergraduate work on my first degree and based on work by scholars that I respect a great deal.  

But hey, I'm sure Lao is just some made up figure.  You jump down people's throats like that and wonder why someone challenges you on your beliefs?  I don't believe I was jumping down your's.

You would think that my suggestion that the OT as well as the NT borrowed some ideas from the Tao is a capitol offense.  I guess I should be strung up by my eyebrows?

That is my opinion and it's based on my education.  You aren't going to change it.  I think works of that era borrowed from each other and I believe that there are strange similarities between the OT, NT and Tao.  I also believe that the Tao is older.  Draw your own conclusions from that.

[CF DolFan]

No it's not.

If someone can believe in God and their view is protected, why can't I believe that the person is mentally ill and my view be protected?

I'm not saying it to be a dick.  It's my honest opinion about the situation.  I don't see how my honest opinion crosses any line.  That's my reasoning for people believing in things that aren't there.  I think my mom has that illness.  It's not like I'm saying they should all be locked up.

But I am saying that I think that there's a mental block that making them unable to logically look at the situation.  If you can step back and rationally look at religion, you wouldn't be religious.  You have to have this "faith" element.

You are free to have that opinion. When you voice it, it makes you a jerk because it is an insult to some people. People can have the opinion that you are ugly and that's ok but when they start telling it to you then you would become offended ... or at least most people would.  

[CF DolFan]

Ah!  If Lao Tzu actually lived!  Jesus Christ lived, right?  Although you never shook his hand, bought him a cup of coffee or asked him over for dinner.  You just know that to be true.  

And, yet, so quick to state your doubts about Lao Tzu when there is roughly the same amount of documentation that supports the guy's existence as there is Jesus.  Weird how you can be so quick to jump to that conclusion while holding on to another.

I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass, no matter how much you want to rush in and claim the OT is the living / breathing / stand alone / nothing was taken for it but from it stance.  It's based on years of undergraduate work on my first degree and based on work by scholars that I respect a great deal.  

But hey, I'm sure Lao is just some made up figure.  You jump down people's throats like that and wonder why someone challenges you on your beliefs?  I don't believe I was jumping down your's.

You would think that my suggestion that the OT as well as the NT borrowed some ideas from the Tao is a capitol offense.  I guess I should be strung up by my eyebrows?

That is my opinion and it's based on my education.  You aren't going to change it.  I think works of that era borrowed from each other and I believe that there are strange similarities between the OT, NT and Tao.  I also believe that the Tao is older.  Draw your own conclusions from that.

You know if you follow it that even followers of Tao aren't sure if the story of Lao is true. It's quite possible that Sima Qian made up his biography ... not that it changes the writings.  If Jesus didn't live, die, and ressurect then Christianity is false and there is absolutely no reason to follow Him.  There is no room for error.

[YoFuggedaboutit]

Yes.  You have two choices ... both free will. Either accept God or be your own god.  Hell is the eternal separation from God and is a choice one makes. It's not God's choice nor his fault.  He says if you look for Him you will find Him but unfortunately most will not look for fear of finding Him. I don't see how He can be any more fair than that with freedom of choice.

And even if hell is labelled as eternal separation from God, or the absence of God, God is still not entirely absent in hell.  However, he is looked at in a much different light.  In heaven, God's presence and love brings peace and joy to heaven's inhabitants.  However, in hell, God's presence and love brings unmitigated terror because hell's inhabitants have rejected God's love while on earth. 

[JVides]

I would just like to be clear --

I like AND respect many, many religious people.  I think they are smart and funny and enjoyable.

I am not trying to diminish their place in society, in my life, or as people.  I do, however, think that their (what I would consider) baseless belief system is due to a mental block or mental trauma.  It's easiest to convert the weak, the poor, the uneducated, the sick, the damaged, the vulnerable, the addicted, those in prison, etc.  -- Those groups are highly religious, probably because of desperation and trauma.

To say that people have some sort of mental trauma because they believe in a higher power is what gets me, Dave (and Buddha).  I could almost say the same about people who believe in any sort of unproven phenomenon, like man's effect on global warming.  A religious man tells you the apocalypse is upon us because it is so prophesized in the bible, and you tell him no, it's because the scientific community (which once believed we were due for:  an ice age, a giant meteor strike, a cataclysmic earthquake that would separate California from the union, a giant volcanic eruption that would cover the Earth in ash, in essence blotting out the sun and creating a nuclear winter, etc...) tells you we're all going to be swallowed up by the sea if we don't start buying hybrids.  People then make movies pushing their specious arguments and become Nobel laureates for their troubles!

This "mass psychosis" is inherent to all humans, believers or not.  Question is, what pushes your buttons?  What unexplained fiction will you choose to believe?  Science that will be found to be faulty by future generations (duck and cover, anyone?), or a belief system that has existed for millenia and has helped shape much of the world's order?  Science can't incontrovertibly explain how the universe works, how it began, where it came from.  Only theories exist.

Faith attempts to offer an explanation, because, in our lifetimes, the answer to the important questions will NOT be known.  Where do I COME FROM?  WHAT AM I HERE TO DO?  Science can never answer these questions to any degree of satisfaction, if only because science will tell us that we're nothing more than a giant, inconsequential ant colony living in our own little glass box, and that, in the grand scheme, whatever we do is inconsequential.  I can't live with that, because that means, in the end, that my life is worthless regardless of how well I live it, and that means that holding a job, paying taxes, helping others, loving my wife (exclusively) and daughter, raising her right, etc...means nothing.  

So I CHOOSE to believe there's a higher power that gave me a soul, and the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and a compass to guide me through a righteous existence, regardless of whether there's a carrot at the end of the stick (heaven).  But I'm no religious or scientific scholar.  I just look at it objectively, and, given the choice, I'll go with the "fiction" that gives my life meaning beyond being no more than an insect.

[Fau Teixeira]

You are free to have that opinion. When you voice it, it makes you a jerk because it is an insult to some people. People can have the opinion that you are ugly and that's ok but when they start telling it to you then you would become offended ... or at least most people would.  

i tell him he's ugly all the time

[Dave Gray]

I find that I get a similar reaction from people that I confront about having depression or a drug problem.

They think I'm an asshole.  ...and that's cool -- whatever.

I actually understand why religious people think I'm an asshole.  I'm just giving my honest assessment.

[Fau Teixeira]

i'll just submit one thing for thought .. over the past 30 years scientology has become a "religion" and has millions of followers  who absolutely believe those tenets

how do you know that christianity didn't start int he exact same way.

[Phishfan]

To say that people have some sort of mental trauma because they believe in a higher power is what gets me, Dave (and Buddha).  I could almost say the same about people who believe in any sort of unproven phenomenon, like man's effect on global warming.  A religious man tells you the apocalypse is upon us because it is so prophesized in the bible, and you tell him no, it's because the scientific community (which once believed we were due for:  an ice age, a giant meteor strike, a cataclysmic earthquake that would separate California from the union, a giant volcanic eruption that would cover the Earth in ash, in essence blotting out the sun and creating a nuclear winter, etc...) tells you we're all going to be swallowed up by the sea if we don't start buying hybrids.  People then make movies pushing their specious arguments and become Nobel laureates for their troubles!

This "mass psychosis" is inherent to all humans, believers or not.  Question is, what pushes your buttons?  What unexplained fiction will you choose to believe?  Science that will be found to be faulty by future generations (duck and cover, anyone?), or a belief system that has existed for millenia and has helped shape much of the world's order?  Science can't incontrovertibly explain how the universe works, how it began, where it came from.  Only theories exist.

Faith attempts to offer an explanation, because, in our lifetimes, the answer to the important questions will NOT be known.  Where do I COME FROM?  WHAT AM I HERE TO DO?  Science can never answer these questions to any degree of satisfaction, if only because science will tell us that we're nothing more than a giant, inconsequential ant colony living in our own little glass box, and that, in the grand scheme, whatever we do is inconsequential.  I can't live with that, because that means, in the end, that my life is worthless regardless of how well I live it, and that means that holding a job, paying taxes, helping others, loving my wife (exclusively) and daughter, raising her right, etc...means nothing.  

So I CHOOSE to believe there's a higher power that gave me a soul, and the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and a compass to guide me through a righteous existence, regardless of whether there's a carrot at the end of the stick (heaven).  But I'm no religious or scientific scholar.  I just look at it objectively, and, given the choice, I'll go with the "fiction" that gives my life meaning beyond being no more than an insect.

Why would your life be inconsequential if there is no God? You still helped others, loved your wife, raised your daughter right, etc. That doesn't sound inconsequential to me. It sounds like a fulfilling life. There doesn't need to be a God to make that stuff important.

[Buddhagirl]

To say that people have some sort of mental trauma because they believe in a higher power is what gets me, Dave (and Buddha).  I could almost say the same about people who believe in any sort of unproven phenomenon, like man's effect on global warming.  A religious man tells you the apocalypse is upon us because it is so prophesized in the bible, and you tell him no, it's because the scientific community (which once believed we were due for:  an ice age, a giant meteor strike, a cataclysmic earthquake that would separate California from the union, a giant volcanic eruption that would cover the Earth in ash, in essence blotting out the sun and creating a nuclear winter, etc...) tells you we're all going to be swallowed up by the sea if we don't start buying hybrids.  

This "mass psychosis" is inherent to all humans, believers or not.  Question is, what pushes your buttons?  What unexplained fiction will you choose to believe?  Science that will be found to be faulty by future generations (duck and cover, anyone?), or a belief system that has existed for millenia and has helped shape much of the world's order?  Science can't incontrovertibly explain how the universe works, how it began, where it came from.  Only theories exist.

Faith attempts to offer an explanation, because, in our lifetimes, the answer to the important questions will NOT be known.  Where do I COME FROM?  WHAT AM I HERE TO DO?  Science can never answer these questions to any degree of satisfaction, if only because science will tell us that we're nothing more than a giant, inconsequential ant colony living in our own little glass box, and that, in the grand scheme, whatever we do is inconsequential.  I can't live with that, because that means, in the end, that my life is worthless regardless of how well I live it, and that means that holding a job, paying taxes, helping others, loving my wife (exclusively) and daughter, raising her right, etc...means nothing.  

So I CHOOSE to believe there's a higher power that gave me a soul, and the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and a compass to guide me through a righteous existence, regardless of whether there's a carrot at the end of the stick (heaven).  But I'm no religious or scientific scholar.  I just look at it objectively, and, given the choice, I'll go with the "fiction" that gives my life meaning beyond being no more than an insect.

Whatever floats your boat. I'm not saying that you're mentally ill. I'm just asking what the difference is.

Taking care of your daughter, respecting your wife, work, etc. Those ARE the things that makes us more than an insect.
Perhaps Marx is right. Religion truly is the opiate of the masses.

[Dave Gray]

To say that people have some sort of mental trauma because they believe in a higher power is what gets me, Dave (and Buddha).  I could almost say the same about people who believe in any sort of unproven phenomenon, like man's effect on global warming.

You could (and I would) say the same thing about lots of phenomenon.  If you believe in bigfoot, there's probably something wrong with you.

As far as ghosts and stuff, that's a little different.  There's at least visual evidence to support some kind of phenomenon.  I think it's mixed-up brain signals, but I wouldn't go so far as to say mental illness.

For things like meteors and global warming, I concede that we cannot know those things entirely one way or the other, but they are based on evidence, not faith.  You can choose to disagree or agree with the conclusions to that evidence.  ...but those are hypotheses, not a faith-based belief system.

I also would be the first to change my opinion on any scientific theory if a new, better theory arose due to more evidence.  As a believer in science, you follow the best data and best evidence.  Currently, I believe that lies in the camp of man-contributed warming, because I don't have the means, time, or knowledge to do my own climate experiments, so I follow the scientific consensus.

[Buddhagirl]

i'll just submit one thing for thought .. over the past 30 years scientology has become a "religion" and has millions of followers  who absolutely believe those tenets

how do you know that christianity didn't start int he exact same way.

But...they belive in aliens. It's not a real religion. They're crazy. They worship something that we can't see or prove. It was just made up. . .Oh. Wait.