The legality of medicine vs. religion for minors.

[StL FinFan]

/rant/

I am getting really tired of the pharmaceutical company conspiracy theory.  Millions of dollars go into developing and testing drugs and they don't all make it to market.  Doctors do not go to medical school, internships, etc because they want to get rich.  There are a lot quicker and easier ways to make a good living.  I get accused of this kind of stuff all the time and it pisses me off.  Yes, we care about pets, but we also need to make a living.  I would love to treat everyone for free, but I am still paying for vet school.  If I wanted to be rich, I would have chosen a different career.

/end rant/

[Spider-Dan]

Also, did the homeopathy doctor treated her correctly?

Please define "correctly."

Homeopathy is not a science.  Therefore, any idiot can claim that they are doing it the "right way."

You give me a way to test and verify which method of homeopathy is "correct" (one that doesn't just disprove the entire concept outright) and I'll give you a way to tell if it's being practiced properly.

Lets not get things confused here. People die everyday from conventional methods just as they do from homeopathic methods.    Look at how many people die from pharmaceutical drug usage.  Yet nothing it said.  Why?

Some people will die with no treatment (and by "treatment," I mean actual scientific medicine).
Some people will recover with no treatment.
Some people will still die with treatment.
But more people will recover with treatment.  This is the fundamental principle behind the concept of medicine: it's better than doing nothing.
In contrast, homeopathy has consistently shown to be no better than doing nothing (well, worse, because doing nothing is free).

Answer me this.  Had they taken her to a regular doctor & she still dies. 

Still prosecute?   

End result is the same & why is conventional medicine not prosecutable?

When did anyone claim that conventional medicine is 100% successful?  No one does, or has.

The difference is that one of these things (i.e. medicine) has a scientific history of actually working.  The other (i.e. voodoo hocus pocus) has not.

That's where the criminal negligence comes in.  These people have been informed by trained medical professionals that the choice that they are making is dangerous and reckless.  They chose to stubbornly soldier ahead anyway, and someone else died for it.

I'm going to venture a guess.  Because more people believe in it.

I find it rather disturbing that you consider medicine as something that people "believe," as if we're having a discussion over who is better, Pink Floyd or Queen.

Science isn't some sort of popularity contest; you don't vote on whether or not the theory of relativity is accurate.  Science that doesn't work is discarded; science that does work is expanded upon.  If homeopathy actually worked, it would be part of mainstream medicine (do you honestly believe that pharmaceutical companies would be unable to monetize it?).  But it doesn't, so it isn't.

This is what Dave means when he says that alternative medicine that works is just called "medicine."

[Buddhagirl]

This story is pretty disturbing. I have excema flare ups sometimes. It seems like mine is mild compared to the babies. However, it really, really hurts. I can't imagine how much pain this baby was in.

With that said, I have a cream to treat my excema. Within a day it's cleared up and I go on with my life. We're messing around with my diet to figure out what's triggering it. However, for flare ups I use my medicine. It's not even anything that goes in my body. It just a lotion.

These people deserve to be prosecuted.

[run_to_win]

Some people will still die with treatment.

Science that doesn't work is discarded.

"Why medicine is not a science": (link).

[Dave Gray]

Homeopathy has never ever cured even one person.  It's all placebo effect.  The very concept of homeopathy -- watering down things to near zero levels -- doesn't work.  It's bogus.
 
The best thing that homeopathy has going for it is that sometimes real medicines are used in conjunction with it.  ...like it will have homeopathic cures and zinc or aspirin or something basic, to treat the common cold.  You see this in pharmacies in products like Airborne and Zicam.

If homeopathy really worked, it would stand up to the scientific method, and then be considered "medicine", instead of alternative medicine.

[Dave Gray]

Did he treat the baby correctly using homeopathic methods?   Do remember its solely your opinion,

There are no correct homeopathic methods.  At the very best case scenario, they do nothing physically, but have a placebo effect.

[Dphins4me]

I am getting really tired of the pharmaceutical company conspiracy theory.

Quick question.  Are Pharm companies a business?  If so what is their legal obligation as a business?

  Millions of dollars go into developing and testing drugs and they don't all make it to market. 

Far more than should do make it to the market or otherwise so many would not be pulled from the shelf.  73% of all new drugs put in front of the FDA got approved in 2006.

The diabetes drugs Avandia and Actos will be labeled with severe warnings about a risk of heart failure to some patients, health officials said Tuesday.

Your sugar will be in order, but you heart will stop.   Where can I sign up to take this drug?   If this were a homeopathic drug they would be wanting to persecute.   When conventional medicine kills, they simply slap a warning label on it & allow it to be used.

Please define "correctly."

The correct method for homeopathic, whatever that may be.

Homeopathy is not a science.  Therefore, any idiot can claim that they are doing it the "right way."

  Have you ever visited one?  If not, then how can you speak about one without ever being in present of one?  Think you would be surprised.

You give me a way to test and verify which method of homeopathy is "correct" (one that doesn't just disprove the entire concept outright) and I'll give you a way to tell if it's being practiced properly.
Some people will die with no treatment (and by "treatment," I mean actual scientific medicine).
Some people will recover with no treatment.
Some people will still die with treatment.
But more people will recover with treatment.  This is the fundamental principle behind the concept of medicine: it's better than doing nothing.
In contrast, homeopathy has consistently shown to be no better than doing nothing (well, worse, because doing nothing is free).


When did anyone claim that conventional medicine is 100% successful?  No one does, or has.

This is what gets me with this thought process.  Someone dies from using homeopathic methods & damn they were just an idiot. 

However, look how many people die using conventional & its no one said conventional was 100% or some will still die with treatment. 

Try being fair to both sides here.

The difference is that one of these things (i.e. medicine) has a scientific history of actually working.  The other (i.e. voodoo hocus pocus) has not.

  How much investigation have you done on this subject?

That's where the criminal negligence comes in.  These people have been informed by trained medical professionals that the choice that they are making is dangerous and reckless.  They chose to stubbornly soldier ahead anyway, and someone else died for it.
I find it rather disturbing that you consider medicine as something that people "believe," as if we're having a discussion over who is better, Pink Floyd or Queen.

Believe may have been the wrong word, but my whole point is there is more than one way to reach a destination.

Science isn't some sort of popularity contest; you don't vote on whether or not the theory of relativity is accurate.  Science that doesn't work is discarded; science that does work is expanded upon.  If homeopathy actually worked, it would be part of mainstream medicine (do you honestly believe that pharmaceutical companies would be unable to monetize it?).  But it doesn't, so it isn't.

I wish science was a clear cut as you are making it sound.

This is what Dave means when he says that alternative medicine that works is just called "medicine."

  Medicine is also about money.  Don't ever fool yourself into thinking its about anything else.

[Dphins4me]

It's not even anything that goes in my body. It just a lotion.

FYI If it goes on your skin, it goes in your body.  Skin absorbs.   

They are linking some diseases to antiperspirant.

These people deserve to be prosecuted.

  It was just a 9 month old parasite anyway.   

[Dphins4me]

Homeopathy has never ever cured even one person.  It's all placebo effect.  The very concept of homeopathy -- watering down things to near zero levels -- doesn't work.  It's bogus.
 
The best thing that homeopathy has going for it is that sometimes real medicines are used in conjunction with it.  ...like it will have homeopathic cures and zinc or aspirin or something basic, to treat the common cold.  You see this in pharmacies in products like Airborne and Zicam.

If homeopathy really worked, it would stand up to the scientific method, and then be considered "medicine", instead of alternative medicine.

My sister was having all kinds of trouble a couple of years ago & was being shuffled around from doctor to doctor trying to figure out what was going on.  It was test after test after test.  Take this drug, take that drug.  How about this one.

Until a friend suggested to try the doctor I mentioned before that quit her medical practice ( IE was a trained medical professional ) & went into homeopathic.  In a few months her problem was gone

I guess it was just all a placebo effect.  

Not being insulting, but you are speaking out of ignorance on the subject.  Until you go to one & understand how they work.  You truly are simply guessing.  We are not talking a witch doctor or the lighting of incense

[Dave Gray]

This is what gets me with this thought process.  Someone dies from using homeopathic methods & damn they were just an idiot. 

However, look how many people die using conventional & its no one said conventional was 100% or some will still die with treatment. 

Try being fair to both sides here.

This has been addresses by both me and Spider on multiple occasions, yet you continue to bring up this same tired point.

Medicine is proven to be effective in more cases than not using medicine.  Homeopathy isn't effective in more cases -- as a matter of fact, it's not effective in ANY cases.

If the numbers OVERWHELMINGLY support one kind of treatment and you opt against that treatment for your child, you should be held liable.

[Spider-Dan]

Quick question.  Are Pharm companies a business?  If so what is their legal obligation as a business?

I find it interesting that you exhibit such an overwhelming distrust of the medical industry, yet in almost every other area you insist that libertarian free markets are the way to go.

Let me give you a hint, here: the pharmaceutical industry does not make diagnoses, nor do they prescribe treatments.  That falls upon the healthcare services industry (i.e. doctors).  Now, you could make the argument that healthcare is also a business, and that doctors are motivated by profit... but it seems to me that a socialized healthcare system would greatly reduce the impact of any such motivation.  Yet you oppose such a system vehemently.

If this were a homeopathic drug they would be wanting to persecute.   When conventional medicine kills, they simply slap a warning label on it & allow it to be used.

Let me explain something else:  homeopathic "drugs" are not regulated by the FDA, because (wait for it)... they are not drugs!  Homeopathic medicines are, mathematically speaking, pure water.

So you are, in fact, correct; if a homeopathic drug caused a mortality rate greater than doing nothing, they would prosecute, because it's clearly NOT a homeopathic solution!

The correct method for homeopathic, whatever that may be.

[...]

Have you ever visited one?  If not, then how can you speak about one without ever being in present of one?  Think you would be surprised.

What do you mean by "visited one"?  I daresay I know more about homeopathy than you do.  Do you even know what a 10C or 100C solution is?  Do you understand why it is physically impossible for it to contain more than a single molecule (and even one is stretching it) of the original substance?

This is what gets me with this thought process.  Someone dies from using homeopathic methods & damn they were just an idiot.

Again, you don't quite get it.

They didn't die from using homeopathic methods.  They died from doing nothing, which is exactly what homeopathy works out to.

If you used conventional medicine which has been clinically tested (<--- this part is important) and shown to have a capability for healing, and it doesn't work, then at least you TRIED.

[Buddhagirl]

FYI If it goes on your skin, it goes in your body.  Skin absorbs.  

They are linking some diseases to antiperspirant.
  It was just a 9 month old parasite anyway.  

I understand this. It's still not the same as taking in a medication. I talked with my doctor about that. As long as I'm able to control the condition with the cream, he wants to stay away from the pill. He understands that I would rather not do that. Now, if the condition were to get worse and I needed to go that direction I would.

Once it's out off the body, it's a person.

[Dphins4me]

This has been addresses by both me and Spider on multiple occasions, yet you continue to bring up this same tired point.

I need facts, not biased opinions based on biased research funding by a Pharm comp or the Gov who laws are lobbied by the Pharm industry.

Medicine is proven to be effective in more cases than not using medicine.  Homeopathy isn't effective in more cases -- as a matter of fact, it's not effective in ANY cases.

This is where you both are getting me wrong.  I'm not say conventional medicine is all bad or wrong.  I just believe you can find two ways to a final destination in most cases & I've seen homeopathic work when conventional didn't.  Cannot hard for me to buy the placebo effect when conventional was tried first & failed.  Explain how the homeopathic doctor nailed the problem on my sister when 3 doctors could not?   Blind squirrel thought process?

If the numbers OVERWHELMINGLY support one kind of treatment and you opt against that treatment for your child, you should be held liable.

Please provide these numbers.  Please provide the people who did the research & please provide who funded the research & please provide what they were setting out to prove at the start of the research.

All the things that are very important to determining the validity of the research.

[Spider-Dan]

If the numbers OVERWHELMINGLY support one kind of treatment and you opt against that treatment for your child, you should be held liable.

Please provide these numbers.  Please provide the people who did the research & please provide who funded the research & please provide what they were setting out to prove at the start of the research.

All the things that are very important to determining the validity of the research.

Are you f*cking joking?

The person who supports homeopathy is asking for clinical proof before he considers a treatment valid?  And not only that, but you need to know who paid for it and what they were "setting out to prove"?

HAVE YOU EVER ASKED ANY OF THESE THINGS ABOUT HOMEOPATHY?

Some consistency, please!

[Dave Gray]

This is where you both are getting me wrong.  I'm not say conventional medicine is all bad or wrong.  I just believe you can find two ways to a final destination in most cases & I've seen homeopathic work when conventional didn't.  Cannot hard for me to buy the placebo effect when conventional was tried first & failed.  Explain how the homeopathic doctor nailed the problem on my sister when 3 doctors could not?   Blind squirrel thought process?

It was either placebo, coincidence (the disease was running its natural course), "real" medicine had eventually worked, flawed or dishonest evaluation of treatments, or what she was doing wasn't homeopathy to begin with.

Homeopathy didn't cure your sister from anything.  It's just water.  It can't work to ever do anything.